Newbie waffle

[PhilH]

Well, I'm not really much of a newbie, but I didn't want to be stuck on 13 posts at carmudgeons, so I guess I'll have to make another post...

My wife may replace her Passat wagon, now that it has 95k miles on it, within the next 6 months.

Tops on the list to replace it are:

-2003 9-5 wagon (Linear or Arc)
-2006 Toyota RAV4 (maybe 4-cylinder, maybe 3.5 liter V6)
-2007 Passat wagon (probably 2.0T, because the 3.6 liter starts at about 33k and my wife thinks that's too much considering she hardly cares what she drives)

All would be slushomatic only.

Thoughts?

I think the 9-5 or Passat would feel "right" for us for the next 6 years or so. I'm worried the Toyota would feel like a throwaway car that we both would be itching to get rid of.

I have yet to drive any of them, but of course would drive all three (and possibly more) before making a real decision.

Pics for the heck of it...
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2002/Saab/100070372/009583-E.jpg

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2006/Toyota/100673110/20030688-E.jpg

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2007/Volkswagen/100688839/20031801-E.jpg

[rumatt]

Wow. 95K miles already? When did you buy?

why no other choices in your list?

[undefined]

mazda6 wagon?

328iT?

[Sharp11]

Well, I'm not really much of a newbie, but I didn't want to be stuck on 13 posts at carmudgeons, so I guess I'll have to make another post...

My wife may replace her Passat wagon, now that it has 95k miles on it, within the next 6 months.

Tops on the list to replace it are:

-2003 9-5 wagon (Linear or Arc)
-2006 Toyota RAV4 (maybe 4-cylinder, maybe 3.5 liter V6)
-2007 Passat wagon (probably 2.0T, because the 3.6 liter starts at about 33k and my wife thinks that's too much considering she hardly cares what she drives)

All would be slushomatic only.

Thoughts?

I think the 9-5 or Passat would feel "right" for us for the next 6 years or so. I'm worried the Toyota would feel like a throwaway car that we both would be itching to get rid of.

I have yet to drive any of them, but of course would drive all three (and possibly more) before making a real decision.



I get tired of recommending it, but Outbacks are excellent cars, built very tough with an excellent rough-road suspension, strong brakes, good steering and tremendous value.

At least check it out - my wife loves hers.

Outside of that, the new Rav4 looks very promising.

I think the Passat's overweight and cheapened in a way that doesn't justify the new price structure.

Ed

[lip277]

What's wrong with 95,000 miles?

My Yukon has 113,000 and going strong (and will continue to for some time)
Our Mercedes has ~210,000 and is also going strong (but we're getting in the 'replacement' mindset - That probably means 18 months...)
My 740i has 98,000 on it and also is going well. I'll have that car for many years.
My 2002 has 240,000 miles - But that's another story. :D

Seriously - I'd rather have a car that has treated me well for a few years (and 95k) on it than getting into something else 'just because'-

But - Then again - I'm probably the extreme to that mindset around here. :lol:

[PhilH]

Wow. 95K miles already? When did you buy?

why no other choices in your list?
It's a 1998 Passat wagon that we bought in 2000 with 44k miles on it.

There's plenty of other choices, starting with aty's suggestion of the Mazda 6 wagon. We've test driven it a couple times and even went to a Mazda dealer with the intention of buying one, but left after feeling "meh" about dropping cash on a car neither of us were excited about.

Also on the list are a used X3, used 525iT, used A6 Avant, and the new Acura RD-X (not out yet), but most are getting farther down the list at this point. Both me and my wife went to the Phila auto show this past week and sat in about 30 cars or so (mostly in the back seat, since this is the "family car") in order to winnow the list down.

As you guys may or may not remember, my wife has said many times that she doesn't want be "seen driving" a BMW, the A6 has poor reliability and the RD-X will likely be more expensive and slightly smaller than the RAV4 (and it's not out yet)...so the three cars in my original post are the most likely right now.

[PhilH]

I get tired of recommending it, but Outbacks are excellent cars...
I agree, and think a new AWD wagon with good reliability for about $25k would suit us just fine. She, however doesn't like Subarus (for no apparant reason).

[rumatt]

Try to make her drive one before deciding. She might like it. :dunno:

[PhilH]

What's wrong with 95,000 miles?
That's why we've kept it for 6 years, and although she went to the auto show with me, she has argued many times for us just to keep the Passat until it no longer makes financial sense for us to do a big repair that comes up.

[Sharp11]

What's wrong with 95,000 miles?

My Yukon has 113,000 and going strong (and will continue to for some time)
Our Mercedes has ~210,000 and is also going strong (but we're getting in the 'replacement' mindset - That probably means 18 months...)
My 740i has 98,000 on it and also is going well. I'll have that car for many years.
My 2002 has 240,000 miles - But that's another story. :D

Seriously - I'd rather have a car that has treated me well for a few years (and 95k) on it than getting into something else 'just because'-

But - Then again - I'm probably the extreme to that mindset around here. :lol:

I've always admired people who can keep a car into high mileage. The longest I've ever kept a car was my 1987 Honda Accord LXi, bought new and enjoyed regularly for nine years and over 90k miles. What a great car that was, never cost me anything and always looked good right up to the day I sold it.

I could've done the same with my last car, the E46, but I got a hankering for a sports car, so.......

Ed

[Sharp11]

That's why we've kept it for 6 years, and although she went to the auto show with me, she has argued many times for us just to keep the Passat until it no longer makes financial sense for us to do a big repair that comes up.

Your wife sounds a bit like mine. My wife likes cars, but views them as a necessary appliance to be kept running into high mileage.

She's not an enthusiast - she won't even ride in the Z4, but she enjoys my fascination with it, even encouraging me to take a few days this summer and join up with the Z club festivities.

Ed

[BahnBaum]

She's not an enthusiast - she won't even ride in the Z4, but she enjoys my fascination with it, even encouraging me to take a few days this summer and join up with the Z club festivities.

Ed

Sounds like my wife.

Alex

[lip277]

Sounds like my wife.

Alex

:+1 (Only to a certain point though)
:D

[lemming]

is the wagon's capacity important or is it the car style (i.e. estate versus sedan) that is important?

that'd be good to know, too, in further opining.

[kognito]

I rented a new Passat wagon a few weeks ago in Germany. Weather was too cold and snowy to really have fun with it, but I really liked that car. It was the 2.0 TDI 6 speed. great clutch, nicest "feel" shifter i have driven in a long time.

[lemming]

I rented a new Passat wagon a few weeks ago in Germany. Weather was too cold and snowy to really have fun with it, but I really liked that car. It was the 2.0 TDI 6 speed. great clutch, nicest "feel" shifter i have driven in a long time.

it is laudable to have 95k miles on a Volkswagen, but smart money says something expensive is around the corner.

like assimilation, it is inevitable. that said, you might ask TD about his ownership and reliability experience with his Aero-wagen. i personally haven't had any issues ever with subarus, but i understand their limited appeal. they're not flashy cars and their practicality does not resonate with everyone.

you have a lot of options if space is not mission critical.

[PhilH]

is the wagon's capacity important or is it the car style (i.e. estate versus sedan) that is important?

that'd be good to know, too, in further opining.
It needs too have a certain capacity in order to be considered (say, about 30 cu ft of cargo space) and the back seat should be at least in E39 5 Series territory.

As for style, my wife limits herself by wanting something better than average, but something that's not flashy. So, for example, an Accord is too common, but a BMW or Mercedes is too flashy. In her eyes, an Audi or Acura is the right "image"...something in the middle.

[TD]

My opinion of the Saab is mixed. It's VERY practival as it's HUGE inside. And for a FWD vehicle of it's size, it drives and handles very well.

The current 9-5 has been around forever and Consumer Reports gives the recent years productions very high marks for reliability. We've only had one major problem and a couple of minor problems and it's all been covered by warranty. The major one really pissed me off (the engine computer crapped out leaving my wife and kids stranded on the shoulder of I-495) but it's now long enough ago that I can be more objective about it. Ours is also a 2000 MY copy and supposedly (again, according to CR) the engine electronics have improved since.

As far as having a unique, cool-looking familt truckster, I think it's one of the better choices out there. The only downsides are the FWD and potential for issues. Oh, and the depreciation.

[PhilH]

Try to make her drive one before deciding. She might like it. :dunno:
Since this is her car, I don't want to push her to buy something she doesn't like, and I think I might be happier with something other than a Subaru too. If I am going to go to the trouble to push her to get something she doesn't want, it'll probably be the X3 or 525iT, then at least the effort should be worth it.

[PhilH]

My opinion of the Saab is mixed...

(snip)

As far as having a unique, cool-looking familt truckster, I think it's one of the better choices out there.
As soon as the 9-5 appeared on our list, I did some searches here to find what you had written about yours. As you say, it's not going to be the most exciting car to drive, but for its intended purpose it does its job well.

[TD]

As soon as the 9-5 appeared on our list, I did some searches here to find what you had written about yours. As you say, it's not going to be the most exciting car to drive, but for its intended purpose it does its job well.
Well, it *can* be interesting. Especially on a wet skidpad with Nick grabbing your e-brake.

http://www.nccbmwcca.org/gallery/data/508/medium/DSC026011.jpg

[Plaz]

Well, it *can* be interesting. Especially on a wet skidpad with Nick grabbing your e-brake.



Whoa... a picture? :lol:

[BahnBaum]

Whoa... a picture? :lol:

Yeah, I was swearing that camera of his was one of those props you see in the Ikea room displays.

Alex

[PhilH]

I can really see myself buying a set of BBS RK wheels if we get a 9-5.:thumbup:

[lemming]

I can really see myself buying a set of BBS RK wheels if we get a 9-5.:thumbup:

the SAAB 9-5 had a run of bad ECUs that has some of the circuitry contaminated with sulphur in the facility that made them and this plagued all 1999 cars and some 2000s and 2001s. so that was a gimme.

for the most part, they should be more reliable than any VAG product or BMW.

the double bonus is that they should be on firesale at the dealers new and they do depreciate like peugeots, so in either case, you get a lot nice car for the money.

the new 9-3 kombi is quite cool and a fun drive, also. smaller, obviously, but a nicer chassis.

[IndyMike]

In her eyes, an Audi or Acura is the right "image"...something in the middle.
A3

200hp, 6 speed with DSG and FronTrak $26,220
City 25, Highway 32
Top class materials, great standard features and best interior, bar none, in the small car/hatch segment
36.4 cu. ft. of storage space with rear seats folded
Nicely optioned (CWP, Convenience Package) will sticker for about $28k
Deals at or around invoice for vehicles in stock is definitely possible
4yr/50,000 mile no-charge scheduled maintenance

[PhilH]

The 9-3 SportCombi has poor reliability ratings and the back seat legroom is kind of tight. The cargo space is also something less than 30 cu ft.

Although I like it, the A3 is way too small both in the back seat and trunk. Even the A4 Avant's back seat is too small for what we're looking for. We need 30 cu ft of cargo space with the rear seats upright.

[TD]

Whoa... a picture? :lol:
That wasn't one of Nick's. Those were posted to the local CCA website.

[lemming]

The 9-3 SportCombi has poor reliability ratings and the back seat legroom is kind of tight. The cargo space is also something less than 30 cu ft.

Although I like it, the A3 is way too small both in the back seat and trunk. Even the A4 Avant's back seat is too small for what we're looking for. We need 30 cu ft of cargo space with the rear seats upright.

how can the 9-3 Kombi already have poor reliability ratings given that it's a new platform and the twin turbo v6 is new, too? that part, i do not understand?

i'm having an aty-like moment here where i am wondering "what did i miss"?

[PhilH]

The new 9-3 is the car that has poor reliability. Since the 9-3 SportCombi is the same thing with a wagon body I'm see no reason for the reliability to change. The new turbo V6 is only in the Aero model, which is over $30k and therefore out of her price range.

[lemming]

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Reliability.aspx?year=2006&make=Saab&model=9-3&trimid=-1

it all depends on who the source is. i'm not a huge fan of the SAABs, either, but they do tend to be more reliable than VAG products.

[PhilH]

I'm going by consumer reports, and they show the 9-3 as having "much worse than average" reliability overall. In 2003 and 2004 it has the lowest rating and for the 2005 model year it is rated fair (one step up from the worst).

Since this is more of a transportation appliance we're buying for our family, we might as well buy something with at least decent reliability.

[lemming]

I'm going by consumer reports, and they show the 9-3 as having "much worse than average" reliability overall. In 2003 and 2004 it has the lowest rating and for the 2005 model year it is rated fair (one step up from the worst).

Since this is more of a transportation appliance we're buying for our family, we might as well buy something with at least decent reliability.

well, to be honest: consistency is key here.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023544&src=News

if you look on this list, which is CR-based, your passat wagon is right there with the SAAB. see what i mean? it seems to be something more than reliability being the final arbiter because VAG products (i'm sure if you look in that same compendium that you're using for the SAAB) aren't jumping out at me as reliable.

i'm making the simple point that blanket statements apply all-around here, using the same data source and the same logic.

[PhilH]

I know our '98 Passat sucks as far as reliability. We had to shell out $2k to replace the turbo, we've also had some minor suspension parts replaced. That's why I'm actually paying attention to reliability statistics this time.

[lemming]

I know our '98 Passat sucks as far as reliability. We had to shell out $2k to replace the turbo, we've also had some minor suspension parts replaced. That's why I'm actually paying attention to reliability statistics this time.

:mad:

that makes me mad.

they're really nice cars, but there's always something that goes (even under warranty) that is such as pain in the ass. i've owned two VWs (mark III's) and i mistakenly advised a good friend to buy a VW and he hates me for it.

[PhilH]

Although reliability ratings aren't available for the new B6 Passat yet, I would bet it's not going to be above average. The only reason we're considering it is because it hits nearly every other one of our desires perfectly. It's a little bigger than our current Passat, has nice style inside and out, drives nicely and we can get a well equipped new one for $27k.

We both have a soft spot for Passats, but we agree we'd be a little crazy to get another.

[lupinsea]

I know our '98 Passat sucks as far as reliability. We had to shell out $2k to replace the turbo, we've also had some minor suspension parts replaced. That's why I'm actually paying attention to reliability statistics this time.
I understand your concern with reliability. When I was younger and didn't know too much about cars I purchased a 1977 Corvette. I was fun for a while until the repairs soured me on the car. It got to the point I didn't enjoy driving it because I was so paranoid about what else might go wrong:

Corvette purchase price: $7,300
Corvette repairs in 20 mo: $7,346

Finally sold the car for: $8,000

Price of learning importance of reliability: $6,646

Yeah, it was a 25 yr old car with 128,000 miles on the clock but I was hoping with the small-block V8 that it'd be fairly reliable. And the engine did hold up. It was all the other stuff that went wrong on the car: radiator going out, door panels falling apart, electrical fire, turn signal stalk snapping off, valve cover leaks, cracked coolant resevoir, rear bearings and bushings going out, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and etc.

One of the reasons I've enjoyed the Miata so much over the last 2 1/2 years and 45,000 miles is that it's been so &^%$ reliable. I've never had to worry about it. I never want to have a repeat of the Corvette experience. It's one of the reasons for my incessant questions about the BMW 330i over the last few weeks and months. I'd like to know what I'm getting into with that car.

[lemming]

I understand your concern with reliability. When I was younger and didn't know too much about cars I purchased a 1977 Corvette. I was fun for a while until the repairs soured me on the car. It got to the point I didn't enjoy driving it because I was so paranoid about what else might go wrong:

Corvette purchase price: $7,300
Corvette repairs in 20 mo: $7,346

Finally sold the car for: $8,000

Price of learning importance of reliability: $6,646

Yeah, it was a 25 yr old car with 128,000 miles on the clock but I was hoping with the small-block V8 that it'd be fairly reliable. And the engine did hold up. It was all the other stuff that went wrong on the car: radiator going out, door panels falling apart, electrical fire, turn signal stalk snapping off, valve cover leaks, cracked coolant resevoir, rear bearings and bushings going out, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and etc.

One of the reasons I've enjoyed the Miata so much over the last 2 1/2 years and 45,000 miles is that it's been so &^%$ reliable. I've never had to worry about it. I never want to have a repeat of the Corvette experience. It's one of the reasons for my incessant questions about the BMW 330i over the last few weeks and months. I'd like to know what I'm getting into with that car.

new cars, even the most unreliable ones, are so good so as to make stories such as this laughable folklore.

no one believes that these sorts of things really happen anymore.

[lupinsea]

Which is one of the things I keep reminding myself about. Supposedly the BMW 3 series is slightly above average in terms of reliability. Now, that may not sound like much but consider that contemporary cars are significantly more reliable than cars build 10 or 20 years ago. I think the big difference, though is that when something does go wrong and needs to be fixed its probably more likely to cost more.

I was talking to a guy years ago who had been training to be a Ford technician and I was grousing about all the damn unnecissarily (sp?) complex electronic and computerized systems on cars these days. He responded that it actually helps diagnose and pinpoint problems much faster. It got me thinking. Then when I was reading up about the EFI system back when I was considering doing a Ramjet 350 engine swap into the Corvette (before I came to my senses) and in my research into a Factory Five Cobra I became very appreciative of the electronic systems. It's a double edge sword. There's a lot of fine-tuning and control over the engine and such but there's also more things on the car to go wrong and more things that can wear out. All-in-all I'll take the advancements.

:lol: Guys in my Jeep club are still going "wow, EFI is great" because they can climb steeper hills without worry about starving the carburator. Jeez. Carburator. . . now there's something I haven't thought about in a long time. :eeps: