He ain't heavy, he's my BMW....

[Sharp11]

I originally posted this over at the 'fest where it generated little interest. In light of JohnV's astonishment of the Mroadster's bulbous curb weight, I thought it worth a second go:

I think the E90 330i is an excellent car, I've driven them and find them impressive, I especially like the new engine.

If I were in the market for a five series, this is the car I'd get, the three is a better five imo, but as a "sports" car, at 3400lbs with a 108 inch wheelbase, it's too large and too heavy. Geeez, at least it's not as heavy as the new and bulbous 3500lb+ Lexus IS.

I'd say bring over the one series, but it doesn't benefit from expensive "lightweight" engineering, so it too is a heavy-ish (for its size) 3100-3200+ Lbs, about the same as my dearly departed E46. And it costs too much.

Z4's are gaining weight too, the new coupes are in the one series range (at least they get astoundlingly super-stiff shells). Lower gas mileage will further reduce the already compromised sports-car cruising range of around 275 miles.

At the prices BMW charges, we should be seeing more weight-savings engineering; yes, BMW does seem to do more than most manufacturers in this regard, but it's not enough. My Z4 has an aluminum hood, but the trunk lid is steel , at least much of the suspension is aluminum, and the convertible top's frame magnesium, but the 18 inch wheels weigh 25lbs each!! More could've been done to get the car down below 2900lbs.

By contrast, the new Miata has an aluminum hood, trunk lid, suspension and many other details bringing it in at 2400-ish lbs. It's a marvel of light-weight engineering. Kudos to Mazda for doing so much at such a low MSRP.

Even my wife's '05 Outback has impressive use of materials, the hood, tailgate and engine are aluminum - the thing weighs in at 3300lbs and it's a large AWD wagon - with commendable crash ratings.

I'd like to see the Z4 at 2600lbs for starters, the E90 at around 3100lbs and the One series at 2800-2900lbs. It certainly is do-able, would make BMW's more fun, more responsive and more miserly.

Ed

[BahnBaum]

My guess is the typical consumer, and the typical BMW driver, couldn't tell the difference driving a the same car that weighed 3400# or was engineered to weigh 2800#. In fact, the typical person might prefer the ride of the heavier car.

I just don't think you're going to see strides except in specialized performance cars that are target marketed to those that appreciate what it means. The rest of the cars are just bloating up with more safety and luxury features.

Alex

[TD]

I'd have to imagien it's a cost/benefit thing. If BMW thought enough consumers cared, I'd imagine we'd see the weights coming down - although a further weight reduction would not come cheap.

[wdc330i]

I'd have to imagien it's a cost/benefit thing. If BMW thought enough consumers cared, I'd imagine we'd see the weights coming down - although a further weight reduction would not come cheap.

And while they're still able to tweak gas mileage upward, there's no incentive to lighten up by using more expensive materials.

[clyde]

I'd have to imagien it's a cost/benefit thing. If BMW thought enough consumers cared, I'd imagine we'd see the weights coming down - although a further weight reduction would not come cheap.

low cost, low weight, high strength

pick two

Between the equipment and designs required to pass government and third party crash tests in multiple markets along with the heavy "must have" features demanded by the typical consumer (particularly in this segment) such as power seats, 52" wheels, sunroofs (or solid hardtops on verts) and what have you, what are we supposed to expect? Toss in the fact that most people want solid feeling cars (adding mass is the easiest and cheapest way to do it) that ride smoothly and softly (oddly enough, adding mass helps this as well) and there is little incentive for manufacturers to add lightness. Until they have a compelling need (CAFE or something similar), I wouldn't expect to see much improvement. For the most part, it's rather impressive that they have been able to make the cars of today that they do without them ballooning up further than they have.

[IndyMike]

And while they're still able to tweak gas mileage upward, there's no incentive to lighten up by using more expensive materials.
Yeah, if they thought weight was of paramount importance to the avg. buyer carbon fiber would be used more in the construction process.

But say you used it predominantly in a vehicle like the 6er most buyers in this demographics would still probably offset it by using 22" or bigger chrome dubs.

[lemming]

Ed:

i agree with you. it's ridiculous how heavy the cars have gotten. but compared to the MBs and Audis, BMWs are still managing to keep weight down --but TD made a good point about the safety standards and meeting them effectively with the chassis.

frankly, i have no idea why Audi quattros weigh so damn much. they don't even have LSDs on the front or rear axles anymore. have you looked at the curb weight of the subaru Legacy? it has awd and arguably better space usage than the a4, yet it's only 3350 pounds or so --this is lighter than the e90 330i 6spd and please realize that turbos and their associated plumbing weighs a lot, plus subie has an LSD at the rear. go figure.

i still opine that the most egregious offender is the Ford GT because it is an aluminum framed vehicle and yet it's awfully heavy for an exoticar. arguments are constantly made about the added cost of aluminum frames and so forth, but it's obvious that BMW's attitude is that as long as the car weigh less than the competition, it's okay and a good place to save some R&D money and instead put it into the engines and stupid electronics.

[TD]

Ed:

i agree with you. it's ridiculous how heavy the cars have gotten. but compared to the MBs and Audis, BMWs are still managing to keep weight down --but TD made a good point about the safety standards and meeting them effectively with the chassis.

frankly, i have no idea why Audi quattros weigh so damn much. they don't even have LSDs on the front or rear axles anymore. have you looked at the curb weight of the subaru Legacy? it has awd and arguably better space usage than the a4, yet it's only 3350 pounds or so --this is lighter than the e90 330i 6spd and please realize that turbos and their associated plumbing weighs a lot, plus subie has an LSD at the rear. go figure.

i still opine that the most egregious offender is the Ford GT because it is an aluminum framed vehicle and yet it's awfully heavy for an exoticar. arguments are constantly made about the added cost of aluminum frames and so forth, but it's obvious that BMW's attitude is that as long as the car weigh less than the competition, it's okay and a good place to save some R&D money and instead put it into the engines and stupid electronics.
Psst, that was clyde.

[lemming]

Psst, that was clyde.

all of you angry round eyed guys look the same to me.

;)

[lupinsea]

*sigh* That's one of the things I'm going to miss about the Miata when I sell it. The comparatively low weight. I think mine has an official weight of 2450 and that's HEAVY for a Miata. And until the newest car my OEM 15.5 lb wheels were some of the heaviest offered for the car. After the redesign there was a lot of grumbling in Miata circles that the NC, the new one, GAINED 22 lb.! We were figuring that with all the new engineering they'd actually shave weight. At the same time Mazda REALY stiffened up the car, added a lot of safety reinforcing and made a whole lotta stuff standard. So a gain of 22 lb. isn't too bad I guess considering it's 400 lb. lighter than its direct competitor. It's just that some of the earlier Miatas (early 90's) came in a 2250 lb. with wheels weighing in at 10 lb. each. And yead if I were to be in a crash I'd much rather have the new one with all the safety stuff designed in.

[Rob]

I was under my car yesterday. The back of the frame is just . . . cut off. That must have saved some weight, right? The frame tube is an open, cut off tube. I suppose it helps with drainage if water gets in there.

It's not logical to apply the weight standards of yesterday to the cars of today. Tougher and tougher crash standards are one culprit. The increased use of computers for everything are another. The luxury stuff like power windows, seats, sunroofs - when was the last time you saw a manual sunroof?

The MZ4 is too heavy? Really? It's got over 300 hp. My car is horribly heavy. It's got 400 hp and masks its weight well. So who of the mass market that buys these cars cares about 3300 pounds or 3500 pounds (or 3800 in my case)? It's not the vast majority of the customers, that's clear.

[ff]

I'd have to imagien it's a cost/benefit thing. If BMW thought enough consumers cared, I'd imagine we'd see the weights coming down - although a further weight reduction would not come cheap.

I think it would come cheap, at least for BMW. If they'd stop putting in these goofy electronical gadgets (active cruise control, active steering, active ego enforcers), not only would the car weigh less, it would also cost much less to manufacture.

[John V]

It's not logical to apply the weight standards of yesterday to the cars of today. Tougher and tougher crash standards are one culprit. The increased use of computers for everything are another. The luxury stuff like power windows, seats, sunroofs - when was the last time you saw a manual sunroof?

The MZ4 is too heavy? Really? It's got over 300 hp.

For what it is, yes. The MZ4 is too heavy, in my opinion. So is the Cayman.

Rob, I know what you're saying, but additional weight can not be offset by more power, wider wheels and tires, bigger brakes, etc. It just doesn't work.

Just because I'm forced to accept stricter crash standards doesn't mean I have to like it. :o I would much rather run the risk of getting more seriously injured and save a few hundred pounds. But I'm sure I'm in the vast minority with that sentiment.

[clyde]

Rob, I know what you're saying, but additional weight can not be offset by more power, wider wheels and tires, bigger brakes, etc. It just doesn't work.

John V and I will be demonstrating this the first weekend of Mach at Qualcomm Stadium. RWG, please feel free to attend. ;)

[Rob]

Rob, I know what you're saying, but additional weight can not be offset by more power, wider wheels and tires, bigger brakes, etc. It just doesn't work.

Just because I'm forced to accept stricter crash standards doesn't mean I have to like it. :o I would much rather run the risk of getting more seriously injured and save a few hundred pounds. But I'm sure I'm in the vast minority with that sentiment.

I know YOU don't like it. But you don't buy 15000 MZ4s a year, or whatever they will sell. Most of us on this board don't like it either. I am just suggesting that the mass market doesn't know the difference. I love my car for the bundle of compromises that it is. I know (now) that I won't be happy with a car that is designed for the track as a daily driver. But I am also not kidding myself about what I bought. The Ms and the cocksters are designed to be daily drivers that handle well. So, from the mass market's perspective, I am not sure they are too heavy.

[Sharp11]

For what it is, yes. The MZ4 is too heavy, in my opinion. So is the Cayman.

Rob, I know what you're saying, but additional weight can not be offset by more power, wider wheels and tires, bigger brakes, etc. It just doesn't work.

Just because I'm forced to accept stricter crash standards doesn't mean I have to like it. :o I would much rather run the risk of getting more seriously injured and save a few hundred pounds. But I'm sure I'm in the vast minority with that sentiment.

I don't think crash standards are the problem, cars can be made to meet tremendous standards of safety and be light, race cars prove this.

But it's at a cost, that is, the cost of materials. If the use of composites were more widespread, the costs would come down.

Most cars today use the same basic build principle when it comes to crash-worthiness; it's crush zones front and rear followed by a high-strength steel "cage" (then throw in 600 or so airbags for everything from your skull to your big toe).

Kudos to Jaquar for making their high-end sedan entirely out of aluminum, if I were ever in the market for this type of car, this is the one I would've gotten.... for that reason alone. Unfortunately, I believe Ford is killing it.

My first new car, a 1980 VW Rabbit weighed in at 1800lbs. It had a 90hp engine - you needed to row the gears a lot, but it was fun in a way cars today are not fun - the Z4 and S2000 are the only cars I've driven over the last ten years that somewhat approach this level of elan (though they have MUCH higher limits than the old cars), I would imagine the new Miata does an even better job of it.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but JohnV's correct, what's happening on the performance end is more and more horsepower and stickier and larger rubber to offset the weight gains. Young drivers have no idea what it's like to drive a lightweight, snappy handler with a supple and light suspension and how to really work a gearbox to get the most out of an engine.

This last point is well covered in the new Roundel's Z4 2.0 road test - a small engine indeed (in a too-heavy car), but the driver really enjoyed rowing the gears to get the most out of the little motor.