The Great Window Switch Placement Debate (split from the E90 thread)

[rumatt]

There's no reason they couldn't have maintained the driver centric foundation

I was told that the "equal opportunity" dash (my name for it) was preferred in those user survey things that they do. They're making the car for what the market wants. Your preference for the driver centric dash puts you in the minority.

I just don't understand making changes for sake of change.

It's not for the sake of change. It's for maximizing profit.

It's bad enough that the PW buttons are on the door

I strongly prefer the window buttons on the door. My primary reason for opening the window is either to put something out the window (like my hand to swip my badge at work), or to bring something in the window, like at a fast food drive up. It's retarded to have to look to the right and find the switch, then go left to go out the window, then look to the right again to roll it up. It's impossible to do this song and dance with one hand on the wheel, which would be useful when driving up and swiping a badge. :thumbdow: Also, having them in the center makes it harder to find them by feel (no looking), harder to roll up all 4 at once, and depending what gear you're in the shifter can block you from easily accessing the passenger side switches. :ack:

What's the scenario where it's GOOD to be in the center? So you can adjust the windows a tiny bit each time you shift???

[Plaz]

What's the scenario where it's GOOD to be in the center?

If you open your window in the rain the electronics won't get shorted out?

[lip277]

What's the scenario where it's GOOD to be in the center?

When you have to remove the door panel and thus have to mess with all the wiring in the door.

When your past cars had the switches in the center and you are still reaching for them (in the center) even years after those other cars are long gone (although the Mercedes my wife drives still has them there) - The E32 I drove earlier had them in the console.

Simplifies the car - The driver can operate the passenger window from the switch in the middle. Don't need a bank of switches for all the windows in the drivers door and another switch in the passenger door.

The driver (or passenger) can operate all the windows equally.
That one really comes in handy sometimes actually - at least for us.

[clyde]

passenger) can operate all the windows equally.
That one really comes in handy sometimes actually - at least for us.

That's the only one that makes sense...but the only time it's an issue is when the driver parks the car and leaves both a front and back seat passenger in the car. Not something that nearly comes close to outweighing the advnatages of door mounted switches listed in rumatt's post.

When the wiring is in the console, you have to fuck with it there instead of in the door panel. Moving it from one place to another that requires similarly rare access is not an advantage, it's a lateral shift with no benefit.

The habit argument can be applied much more strongly to putting the switches in the doors since so many more cars have had/have them there...and before that, the cranks were in the doors. What was the logic of replacing a mechanical device in the door to a switch on the console to begin with?

Doesn't necessarily simplify the car. My Q45 had center switches for the front passenger and rear windows. Just because there was a console switch for the front passenger didn't mean that there wasn't also a switch for it on the front passenger's door, too. The window lock button was in the place on the console where you would have logically expected the driver's window switch. Maybe it's just me, but if there's going to be a window lock button, I would strongly perfer it to NOT be where there is access to it by anyone other than the driver. If I wan't to prevent the front passenger from working the windows, why would I want the lock button to be at a finger's reach for them? The E46 has a similarly easy to get towindow lock. Talk about idiotic.

Plaz's "short out" argument...I don't doubt that it's happened to someone, somewhere along the line, but I don't know of anyone that it's happened to. OTOH, I do know a number of people that have shorted out their center console switches by spilling Coke (or similar) on them.

[robg]

The main advantage to having the switches in the center is when you have a manual trans car. Usually, you open a window soon after you come to a stop, and may close the window right before you're going to start again ( think tollbooths). In both cases, you'll be shifting right before/after you use the switches, so its convenient to have them where they are. Also, I find that the drivers window switch in the e46 falls ready to hand. All I have to do is put my hand straight down and there it is (and since the switches are well spaced I don't find myself opening the wrong window). In most cars w/ door mounted switches, I usually fumble for a bit finding the right switch. The e90 door switches don't even fall naturally to where you hand would be; so you'd always be fumbling a bit trying to find the switch when you needed it.

Finally, I'm sure the center switches saved BMW a bit of manufacturing cost. Why do I care? Because manufacturers are always looking to cut costs (even pennies); but there are clever ways to do it (the center switches) and stupid ways to do it (such as BMW's plastic cooling systems). So, I'd rather they save money ways that actually benefit me (or atleast I'm neutral on) rather than subjecting the suspension, drivetrain or even interior plastics to more cost cutting.

[rumatt]

When you have to remove the door panel and thus have to mess with all the wiring in the door.

When your past cars had the switches in the center and you are still reaching for them (in the center) even years after those other cars are long gone (although the Mercedes my wife drives still has them there) - The E32 I drove earlier had them in the console.

Simplifies the car - The driver can operate the passenger window from the switch in the middle. Don't need a bank of switches for all the windows in the drivers door and another switch in the passenger door.

The driver (or passenger) can operate all the windows equally.
That one really comes in handy sometimes actually - at least for us.

All reasonable points, but ironically, not a single one of these is "driver-oriented". Removing the driver-centric dash was for passenger comfort, and people are blasting them for it; same for cost-cutting. But it's OK to have inconvenient window switches if they benefit the passenger and are cheaper to manufacture and service?

I think people liked the window switches in the middle because they were unique, different, and "cool". Now, any change is bad, even if its for the better.

[rumatt]

The main advantage to having the switches in the center is when you have a manual trans car. Usually, you open a window soon after you come to a stop, and may close the window right before you're going to start again ( think tollbooths).

I violently object to that argument! At the tollboth you need to put your left hand out the window! Don't make me use my right hand to put down the window, then switch to my left, then back to my right. Shifting is second nature. I don't need to use a single brain cell (or my eyes) to shift after pulling away from a toll both. But the motion of right hand window down / left arm out / right hand window up is incredibly awkward to me.

Maybe it's personal preference in a manual, but it's clearly better on the door with an automatic. So overall, it's a big benefit on the door.

Also, I find that the drivers window switch in the e46 falls ready to hand.

I have better luck with door switches. Place your hand on the door and you feel the cluster of 4. I can easily open any window without looking, or even open 2 or 4 at once. No way can I do that in the BMW. :dunno:

[TD]

I'm about to split this thread. But first, I HATE having the switches on the door. It IS much easier at a tollbooth to roll your window up between shifts while your left hand is on the wheel throughout.

If you're rolling the window up with your left and shifting with your right, how are you steering?

[lemming]

I'm about to split this thread. But first, I HATE having the switches on the door. It IS much easier at a tollbooth to roll your window up between shifts while your left hand is on the wheel throughout.

If you're rolling the window up with your left and shifting with your right, how are you steering?

i think window switches in the center is a heck of a lot better, too. usually when they're on the door, they're always placed in a stupid place where you have to cramp your wrist or slide your hand around the door handle to reach them. plus they do get soaked when the window is open just a smidgen.

[rumatt]

If you're rolling the window up with your left and shifting with your right, how are you steering?

If you are holding the wheel with your left hand, and shifting with your right hand, how are you adjusting the windows at the same time? Obviously you do only two things at once. Both methods require switching hands on the wheel twice.

With the switches on the door, everything related to getting in and out of the window is handled with the left hand, while I'm holding the wheel with the right hand, then switch back and drive away.

I admit this is personal preference. So for manual it's debatable, but for auto it's a no brainer. Majority rules. :dunno:

[Sharp11]

Simplifies the car - The driver can operate the passenger window from the switch in the middle. Don't need a bank of switches for all the windows in the drivers door and another switch in the passenger door.

The driver (or passenger) can operate all the windows equally.
That one really comes in handy sometimes actually - at least for us.

This is what I liked, it makes for fewer switches.

Ed

[clyde]

I'm about to split this thread. But first, I HATE having the switches on the door. It IS much easier at a tollbooth to roll your window up between shifts while your left hand is on the wheel throughout.

If you're rolling the window up with your left and shifting with your right, how are you steering?

Didn't alee make a similar argument about manually operated windsheild wipers? :p

The tollbooth argument (from either side) becomes less and less relevant every day as we move closer and closer to a single nationally used EZ-Pass type automated toll collection process. But for those that still roll their windows down as willing victims of true highway robbery...

WTF?! are you doing as you come to a stop for tolls? Brake to a stop, with downshifting your precious fun to drive manual transmissions cars, right? Down into first gear, right? Keeping the trans in first gear with your foot on that mandatory-wouldn't-buy-a-car-without-it-third-pedal, right? Toss the government employeed thief your two dollars (or however much), tap the auto-up power window switch on your hand's way back in as you accelerate off. Left hand on the wheel by the time it's time to shift to second.

Dunno what all the fuss is about here. Aren't power windows for pussies and poseurs anyway? Aren't they just one more part of the overweight, underexercised, fat-assed American lifestyle of laziness and selfishness that we are all thumbing our noses at when we buy our manually shifted (with unneeded third pedals), overpriced, overweight and overly technologically complex, inefficently packaged and socially elite status symbol European cars?

[Plaz]

Aren't power windows for pussies and poseurs anyway? Aren't they just one more part of the overweight, underexercised, fat-assed American lifestyle of laziness and selfishness that we are all thumbing our noses at when we buy our manually shifted (with unneeded third pedals), overpriced, overweight and overly technologically complex, inefficently packaged and socially elite status symbol European cars?

:lol:

Yeah, just like electric starters. Damn poofter europeans too good for a crank start.

[lemming]

Dunno what all the fuss is about here. Aren't power windows for pussies and poseurs anyway? Aren't they just one more part of the overweight, underexercised, fat-assed American lifestyle of laziness and selfishness that we are all thumbing our noses at when we buy our manually shifted (with unneeded third pedals), overpriced, overweight and overly technologically complex, inefficently packaged and socially elite status symbol European cars?

hey man, if i could do without the power windows or power seats, believe me, i would pay extra for an option to delete those.

and for the record (just for fun): it's the Germans who are in love with the technology and forcing it onto us in their cars. it's not americans dictating the need for iDrive, active steering, active brake pre-wiping, active wipers, active roll control or SMG gearboxes. AFAIK, it's BMW dictating to us what they think is the "future" and basically forcing it on us if we want the privilege of driving their cars.

the latest interior is again BMW using their omnipotent "prudence" in dictating to us how an interior really should be. fools who cling to the more driver-centric interiors of the past are simply luddites and need to get with it, seems to be the BMW partyline.

but then they do stupid things like retract the technological content in their M cars (no active whatchamacall'ems) but insist on SMG gearboxes only. then they hasten to add the true manual.

if it wasn't for squeaky wheels like "us", clyde, the M5 and M6 and future M3 would be SMG only. we're extremists, but not really that far of a standard deviation from the driving enthusiast group. why else would BMW relent and offer a 6sp manual in the M5/M6?

[rumatt]

The tollbooth argument (from either side) becomes less and less relevant every day


Not when I have to swipe a badge every day to get into my parking lot at work. I'm not complaining about this as a hypothetical. I am annoyed with the window switch design almost every day. (on a side note, I'm amazed my driver window regulator hasn't failed yet.)


WTF?! are you doing as you come to a stop for tolls? Brake to a stop, with downshifting your precious fun to drive manual transmissions cars, right? Down into first gear, right? Keeping the trans in first gear with your foot on that mandatory-wouldn't-buy-a-car-without-it-third-pedal, right? Toss the government employeed thief your two dollars (or however much), tap the auto-up power window switch on your hand's way back in as you accelerate off. Left hand on the wheel by the time it's time to shift to second.

Exactly. I still don't see the problem.


Dunno what all the fuss is about here. Aren't power windows for pussies and poseurs anyway? Aren't they just one more part of the overweight, underexercised, fat-assed American lifestyle of laziness and selfishness that we are all thumbing our noses at when we buy our manually shifted (with unneeded third pedals), overpriced, overweight and overly technologically complex, inefficently packaged and socially elite status symbol European cars?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[clyde]

i think window switches in the center is a heck of a lot better, too. usually when they're on the door, they're always placed in a stupid place where you have to cramp your wrist or slide your hand around the door handle to reach them.

poor design is poor design, no matter whether it's here or there

plus they do get soaked when the window is open just a smidgen.

i'd still rather have them on the door and take the rain water than has never caused a problem for myself or anyone I've known over the console switches that I have seen fry after being subjected to Coke, coffee or water spills. Something funny about some kinds of things...when it's known that something will be subjected to specific conditions on a regular basis, the design is frequently made to withstand those conditions and continue operating. When something isn't expected to be exposed to certain conditions on a regular basis it frequently won't stand up to those conditions.

[clyde]

if it wasn't for squeaky wheels like "us", clyde, the M5 and M6 and future M3 would be SMG only. we're extremists, but not really that far of a standard deviation from the driving enthusiast group. why else would BMW relent and offer a 6sp manual in the M5/M6?

Those are the ultimate poseur machines regardless of transmission choices. No "extremist" would choose a ///Marketing ///Machine for their "extremist" ride for ///Many ///More reasons than you can shake a stick at. If it's a poseur ride, what's the point of bothering?

[lemming]

Those are the ultimate poseur machines regardless of transmission choices. No "extremist" would choose a ///Marketing ///Machine for their "extremist" ride for ///Many ///More reasons than you can shake a stick at. If it's a poseur ride, what's the point of bothering?

AFAIK, the M3s are raced and the M6 and M coupes will be raced in professional racing series.

more than I can say about the Ford GT. ;)

[rumatt]

And I forgot to mention that having all 4 switches spread out at the corners of the shifter console sucks as well, because you can't hit all 4 up or down quickly. (or even just two, like when I want to roll down the rears for the dog. :ack:

And even in the E30 coupe, with only two windows, the buttons weren't next to each other (straddling the shfiter) and there was no auto up/down. So to roll down both windows you had to press and hold one, then press and hold the other. You gotta be kidding me. :banghead: Cost savings to avoid extra switches? Maybe. Driver convenience? No way.

[Sharp11]

Didn't alee make a similar argument about manually operated windsheild wipers? :p

The tollbooth argument (from either side) becomes less and less relevant every day as we move closer and closer to a single nationally used EZ-Pass type automated toll collection process. But for those that still roll their windows down as willing victims of true highway robbery...

WTF?! are you doing as you come to a stop for tolls? Brake to a stop, with downshifting your precious fun to drive manual transmissions cars, right? Down into first gear, right? Keeping the trans in first gear with your foot on that mandatory-wouldn't-buy-a-car-without-it-third-pedal, right? Toss the government employeed thief your two dollars (or however much), tap the auto-up power window switch on your hand's way back in as you accelerate off. Left hand on the wheel by the time it's time to shift to second.

Dunno what all the fuss is about here. Aren't power windows for pussies and poseurs anyway? Aren't they just one more part of the overweight, underexercised, fat-assed American lifestyle of laziness and selfishness that we are all thumbing our noses at when we buy our manually shifted (with unneeded third pedals), overpriced, overweight and overly technologically complex, inefficently packaged and socially elite status symbol European cars?

Geez, back in the day (before EZ Pass), I used to have to actually, physically (with a hand crank) roll the window down in my 1980 rabbit as I approached toll booths and manually shifted - wonder how I did that?

Ed

[TD]

AFAIK, the M3s are raced and the M6 and M coupes will be raced in professional racing series.

more than I can say about the Ford GT. ;)
clyde's just enjoying being a contrarian.

As we all know, "pure" sports cars are few and far between. The makers of performance cars stay in business selling image as much as they sell actual performance. So the luxo-stuff is a must.

To pay the costs of the R&D, you need a certain volume of sales and you're just not going to achieve that volume year in and year out selling exclusively to non-poseurs.

Hence slushbox 911 Turbos.

[Sharp11]

Something funny about some kinds of things...when it's known that something will be subjected to specific conditions on a regular basis, the design is frequently made to withstand those conditions and continue operating.

This is why audio consoles are coffee-spill and pot smoke proof :)

Ed

[rumatt]

Geez, back in the day (before EZ Pass), I used to have to actually, physically (with a hand crank) roll the window down in my 1980 rabbit as I approached toll booths and manually shifted - wonder how I did that?


The fact that the crank was on the left must have made it even worse. If only they had put it in the center. ;)

[Sharp11]

The fact that the crank was on the left must have made it even worse. If only they had put it in the center. ;)

VW quality being what it was in those days, the thing eventually broke off in my hand.

Can't recall whether the window was up or down at the time.

Ed

[lemming]

clyde's just enjoying being a contrarian.

As we all know, "pure" sports cars are few and far between. The makers of performance cars stay in business selling image as much as they sell actual performance. So the luxo-stuff is a must.

To pay the costs of the R&D, you need a certain volume of sales and you're just not going to achieve that volume year in and year out selling exclusively to non-poseurs.

Hence slushbox 911 Turbos.

:yes:

i know he does relish the role.

the point wasn't lost on me, though, about center console stuff not being as rigorously weatherproofed as window switchgear would be --although given the location of cupholders, it would be beyond logical to match the two areas for liquid-proofedness.

where the window switchgear is located really matters less to me than how the speedo and tach are illuminated and how easy it is to switch volume and stations on the XM radio while i'm driving without having to take my eyes off of the road (this is how i fail to understand iDrive actuation of all of these features while driving).

-----------------
in fact, the thing that bothers me the most about the e85, e60 and e90 interiors the most are the choice of material quality. the "chrome" paint around the speedo ring is chintzy. and BMW insists on using a lot of that high shine plastic faux-metal crap that looks cheap. i expect those things in my Chevy's (even the cadillac), but in the much maligned Infiniti FX interior, for example, all of the shiny stuff is real aluminum.

[BahnBaum]

And I forgot to mention that having all 4 switches spread out at the corners of the shifter console sucks as well, because you can't hit all 4 up or down quickly. (or even just two, like when I want to roll down the rears for the dog. :ack:

And even in the E30 coupe, with only two windows, the buttons weren't next to each other (straddling the shfiter) and there was no auto up/down. So to roll down both windows you had to press and hold one, then press and hold the other. You gotta be kidding me. :banghead: Cost savings to avoid extra switches? Maybe. Driver convenience? No way.

I can operate both switches simultaneously with one hand on the e30.

Alex

[JST]

And I forgot to mention that having all 4 switches spread out at the corners of the shifter console sucks as well, because you can't hit all 4 up or down quickly. (or even just two, like when I want to roll down the rears for the dog. :ack:

And even in the E30 coupe, with only two windows, the buttons weren't next to each other (straddling the shfiter) and there was no auto up/down. So to roll down both windows you had to press and hold one, then press and hold the other. You gotta be kidding me. :banghead: Cost savings to avoid extra switches? Maybe. Driver convenience? No way.


Really?

I've never had a problem with this--it seems fairly simple to hit the rights with your forefinger and the lefts with your thumb, with your hand around the gear lever. Two motions. Can signal all four windows down in less than 2 seconds.

[BahnBaum]

Really?

I've never had a problem with this--it seems fairly simple to hit the rights with your forefinger and the lefts with your thumb, with your hand around the gear lever. Two motions. Can signal all four windows down in less than 2 seconds.

I think Matt has really, really small hands.

Either that, or they're permanently disfigured into that sausage clamp.

Alex

[Sharp11]

:yes:



-----------------
in fact, the thing that bothers me the most about the e85, e60 and e90 interiors the most are the choice of material quality. the "chrome" paint around the speedo ring is chintzy. and BMW insists on using a lot of that high shine plastic faux-metal crap that looks cheap. i expect those things in my Chevy's (even the cadillac), but in the much maligned Infiniti FX interior, for example, all of the shiny stuff is real aluminum.

In the E85, the higher end interiors have less of the plastic. I've got the extended leather option (came with the car). The entire door panel and visors are all leather, the seats are nicely stitched and the leather quality is nicer (softer) than the usual BMW fare.

On E85's, real aluminum is used on the dash and center consoles on 2.5 premium packaged cars, and standard on the 3.0's (with wood a no-cost option). Faux aluminum is present in the steering wheel and intstrument rings. For safety's sake, I'm not certain I'd want real metal there anyway.

It's the nicest of the current crop of BMW interiors, IMO (one could argue the 7's got a nicely finished inside too), however, the cheap parts are annoying, for instance, the nav screen pops out of the dash built into a nasty and squeeky surround of cheapo plastic, also, the roll hoops should've been furnished in metal.

Otoh, the convertible top is triple-insulated and seems to be of extraordinary quality - what one bean counter taketh away, the other giveth, I guess.

Ed

[rumatt]

I've never had a problem with this--it seems fairly simple to hit the rights with your forefinger and the lefts with your thumb, with your hand around the gear lever. Two motions. Can signal all four windows down in less than 2 seconds.

You need to have have your fingers spread 5-6 inches apart, and have one motion to get the ones from in front of the shifter, then move around the back and get the rear windows. And you need to approach it differently depending on what gear you're in (same with E30).

Compare that to having all four buttons in a square next to your left hand. The BMW design isnt' the end of the world, but it's nowhere near as convenient for rolling down two or for windows as our honda.

sausage clamp.


http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showpost.php?p=93391&postcount=11

[rumatt]

Yeah, just like electric starters. Damn poofter europeans too good for a crank start.

I wonder if airline pilots bitch and moan about technological advances that make their job easier and safer. Improved autopilot mode, or whatever....

"DAMMIT! I want to fly this plan myself. If it was good enough for my father's generation, it's good enough for me!"

[lemming]

In the E85, the higher end interiors have less of the plastic. I've got the extended leather option (came with the car). The entire door panel and visors are all leather, the seats are nicely stitched and the leather quality is nicer (softer) than the usual BMW fare.

On E85's, real aluminum is used on the dash and center consoles on 2.5 premium packaged cars, and standard on the 3.0's (with wood a no-cost option). Faux aluminum is present in the steering wheel and intstrument rings. For safety's sake, I'm not certain I'd want real metal there anyway.

It's the nicest of the current crop of BMW interiors, IMO (one could argue the 7's got a nicely finished inside too), however, the cheap parts are annoying, for instance, the nav screen pops out of the dash built into a nasty and squeeky surround of cheapo plastic, also, the roll hoops should've been furnished in metal.

Otoh, the convertible top is triple-insulated and seems to be of extraordinary quality - what one bean counter taketh away, the other giveth, I guess.

Ed

as far as i'm concerned, Ed, the nicest interior is still my e36/8 M coupe. chrome rings abounded, nice leather. there were definitely hard plastic parts (like the partition divider), but it was the nicest BMW interior i've had.

[clyde]

AFAIK, the M3s are raced and the M6 and M coupes will be raced in professional racing series.

more than I can say about the Ford GT. ;)

and any of that has what to do with anything?

any asshole can race any car against any other and means just as little

[Sharp11]

as far as i'm concerned, Ed, the nicest interior is still my e36/8 M coupe. chrome rings abounded, nice leather. there were definitely hard plastic parts (like the partition divider), but it was the nicest BMW interior i've had.

Those days are long gone, I'm talking current models.

BTW, having never owned an E36, I don't have that reference, but my E46 had a really nice interior, no chrome rings, but a nicely designed and substantial feel - it did have a couple of nasty parts, though, i.e., that cheap headlight switch, and an ergonomic goof or two, the push-button auto-climate control, both improved, considerably, in the E85 and E90.

Ed

[John V]

The console mounted power window switches on the E36 were a pain the first day I had it because I looked like an idiot not once but twice at a PA turnpike tollbooth trying to figure out how to roll down the windows.

A week later I had gotten used to it. The Porsche has them there as well. When I get into other cars (like the Jetta) I readjust. I can't see window switch location being a make/break factor in buying a car. ;)

One thing I DO hate is pushbutton starters. Moronic.

[robg]

The console mounted power window switches on the E36 were a pain the first day I had it because I looked like an idiot not once but twice at a PA turnpike tollbooth trying to figure out how to roll down the windows.

A week later I had gotten used to it. The Porsche has them there as well. When I get into other cars (like the Jetta) I readjust. I can't see window switch location being a make/break factor in buying a car. ;)

One thing I DO hate is pushbutton starters. Moronic.

Pushbutton starters and dash mounted swing-out cupholders (if this is the best they can do, just leave them out) are probablky the 2 most moronic things about the e90 and 60 interiors (The stupid turn signal would come in 3rd).

[ZBB]

Well... I haven't read this entire thread... but here's my 2 cents:

My e46 was the first car I've had with switches on the center console. I really liked it. Part of it was the switch design -- large push down to go down, pull up to go up.

When I got the e39, it took me about 6 months to get used to having the switches on the door. My office has a parking garage with card access. In both the e46 and the e39, I keep/kept the card key in the sun visor plastic sleave thingy. I found that with the switch on the console, as I pulled up to the garage gate, I could reach down to push the driver window down, then drop the transmission into 1st, then grab the wheel with my right hand. Just after that, I could reach up to the visor to grab the card, then swipe it through the card reader and put it away. By the time I pulled through the gate, I had my left hand back on the wheel and my right hand ready to shift to 2nd.

With the e39, I found that having to to everything with my left hand took more coordination and more time. Every once in a while, I still reach for the window switch on the center console...

[ff]

i think window switches in the center is a heck of a lot better, too. usually when they're on the door, they're always placed in a stupid place where you have to cramp your wrist or slide your hand around the door handle to reach them.


What he said. Plus with the switches in the middle, there's fewer switches required, which *should* equate to lower cost and lower complexity. And... the passenger can reach each of them, which comes in handy when you have kids in the back, and passenger wants to roll one of their windows down. Can't do that when the switches are in the door.

[rumatt]

there's fewer switches required, which *should* equate to lower cost and lower complexity. And... the passenger can reach each of them,

Once again: cost cutting, and passenger convenience.

Why can't this same logic be applied to appreciate the new E90 dash?

[ff]

Once again: cost cutting, and passenger convenience.

Why can't this same logic be applied to appreciate the new E90 dash?

Last time I checked, the front passenger could reach all the stereo and HVAC controls on the E46 dash.

And if cost cutting and passenger convenience was their reasoning for the E90 dash, then honestly, why wouldn't they use the same logic for the window switches?

[IndyMike]

I was told that the "equal opportunity" dash (my name for it) was preferred in those user survey things that they do. They're making the car for what the market wants. Your preference for the driver centric dash puts you in the minority. It's not for the sake of change. It's for maximizing profit.

Right. These are probably the same people surveyed in the infamous '01 steering debacle who concluded that a sissified steering rack was needed because they didn't have the coordination to drive around and park their car in Macy's parking lot. :loco:

And these will be the same kind that if allowed to continue to sway AG will one day kill the MT. Let's face it; isn't removing MT, a no-cost option, and requiring either AT or a SMG/DSG derivative a great way to maximize your beloved profit? What's AT cost right now on the E90? The Step in my wife's '03 Touring cost $1425. SMG in the M3 is $2,400 and DSG on the A3 2.0T is $1480. That's some serious limburger cheese that's not making it's way to the profit sheets because of dinosaurs like most of us here that like to make their own gear decisions.

So if left to these same survey mental midgets it's only a matter of time before there will be no no-cost tranny option. Or, the tables will be reversed to wit if you want MT then you'll have to fork over $$$$$$$'s. And if they were smart they would make the privilege prohibitive enough that very few will check the MT option box.

This is where AG could have put their own imprimature on it by maybe placing it behind the gear shift housing, getting rid of the center cupholders and moving them instead to the doors. I can handle a drink with my left-hand far easier than trying to negotiate through multiple buttons or nobs with it.

I strongly prefer the window buttons on the door.
And I am unanimous in that I prefer it on the center console somewhere. It's been there for 15 years for me and it's become as natural to me as knowing where my thingy is when I need to relieve myself. For 15 years I have slept on the left side of the bed while the warden has slept on the right. If things were changed, yeah I could get used to it (just means my left-hand is shackled to her instead of my right) , but I'd prefer not to.

By itself is the PW issue on the E90 a ballbreaker? No. There are other issues that are far easier to pick on.

What's the scenario where it's GOOD to be in the center? Gee, I don't know. Maybe if you happen to be right-handed like me, which is the majority of people. :dunno: The switches in my Escape are on the door, and I've lost count the number of times I've downed or upped the wrong window. I use my left-wing, because it's not natural to me to cross my right over my left.

I wonder if the people surveyed that wanted it on the door are SUV driving left-wingers? :ack:

You a left-winger, Matt? :eeps:

[clyde]

It's been there for 15 years for me and it's become as natural to me as knowing where my thingy is when I need to relieve myself.

Making an agrument like that with a straight face, I'd bet that you worked for the government evenw ithout your user name or knowing who from a previous life on another forum. It sounds just like what I hear all day..."this is the right way becuase this is the way we've always done it."

You a left-winger, Matt? :eeps:

Maybe he just has decent control of his extremities?

[IndyMike]

Making an agrument like that with a straight face, I'd bet that you worked for the government evenw ithout your user name or knowing who from a previous life on another forum. It sounds just like what I hear all day..."this is the right way becuase this is the way we've always done it."
Yeah, I've seen more than enough of that type in my civil service career. In my line of work as a functional software tester I tell the contractor what the effect I am looking for (e.g. power windows must go up and down), but I don't tell them where to put the code (e.g. switches on doors or center console). But once in testing what they've done I do test and comment what is I perceive is functionally best for the user (e.g. switch is more practical for the user on the console than on the door). In this case I believe that placing the switch on the doors is good, placing them in the console is better, but moving them aft of the shifter on the console is best.

Please don't brush me with the broad strokes that you can use for many gov't employees. I've got the 'do more with less' concept down to a science, and that requires innovation and forward thinking. Fortunately I lead and work with like-minded professionals that don't show up each day displaying an attitude or sense of entitlement.

You can slap me with a lot of labels, just not the one that you did. :nono:

Maybe he just has decent control of his extremities?
There's 'Depends' if he doesn't. ;)

[clyde]

You can slap me with a lot of labels, just not the one that you did. :nono:

I was only observing a similarity between what I hear at work all week and what I heard you saying in support of console switches. I wasn't commenting on you professionally.

There's 'Depends' if he doesn't. ;)

But does he hold it with his left or right?

[IndyMike]

I was only observing a similarity between what I hear at work all week and what I heard you saying in support of console switches. I wasn't commenting on you professionally.
Okay, gotcha! Sorry if I came on a bit strong. I'm just a little sensitive to the common perception that civil service is a welfare state. While to a large degree it is true (20% still do 80% of the work) there are still some that take pride in serving the public.

The deadbeats are either croaking or retiring, so weeding them out and replacing them with young professional interns right out of college can only do the sector well. They don't have the 'this is the right way because this is the way we've always done it' mentality that you mentioned which the old guard displays. It'll take time to change the negative perceptions, but it has to be done or entire organizations will continue to be outsourced to the public sector upon completion of the A-76 studies that virtually all governmental entities are being subjected to. So you either adapt or die.


But does he hold it with his left or right?I don't know. Is he ambidicktrious? :eeps: