View Full Version : Can someone PLEASE explain this to me?
What's with the new model cheerleading over at the Fest?
Objectively and pretty universally, these new BMW models have been derided as un-BMW-like and pretty damn ugly.
How can anyone defend this crap? Worse, how can a few people I otherwise respect continue to defend (vociforously) these abominations?
I am truly blown away whenever I see Hack, Plaz, bonotart or RGal defending these fugly monstrosities. Sorry Sarafil, but I expect that from dealership guys. But not from enthusiasts.
I really don't get it.
"It's from BMW so I must be wrong when I find it ugly. It *must* be gorgeous" ?!?!?!
Objectively and pretty universally, these new BMW models have been derided as un-BMW-like and pretty damn ugly.
I don't think that's the case.
I was just watching an old MotorWeek review of the E60 and they commented on how great it looked.
I am truly blown away whenever I see Hack, Plaz, bonotart or RGal defending these fugly monstrosities.
Hey, how'd I get thrown in there? :mad:
Sure, I can explain that no problem. It's not that complicated.
THEY LIKE THEM!
Style is subjective. You think your Saab looks better than a 5 series wagon. I disagree. Which one of us is wrong?
Hack obviously likes the Z4. He bought one. I happen to like the 5. I am not sure why, but in the right colors (and especially if it's moving), I like the 5. It's subjective. How can it be wrong? A good friend of mine at the office LOVED the 7. Until he got the first pictures of the new 5. He almost killed his lease a year early to upgrade for a first model year car (but eventually came to his senses).
The problem isn't with the people that defend the cars, it's that you think they are so ugly that nobody in their right mind could possibly like them. Then people you otherwise respect do and you have to decide to accept that some people have different artistic tastes or decide you were wrong to respect them in the first place. :?
Wanna know why I think this is the problem? Huh? Do you? Huh? Wanna know?
You should see my family's tastes in art! :lol:
What's with the new model cheerleading over at the Fest?
Objectively and pretty universally, these new BMW models have been derided as un-BMW-like and pretty damn ugly.
How can anyone defend this crap? Worse, how can a few people I otherwise respect continue to defend (vociforously) these abominations?
I am truly blown away whenever I see Hack, Plaz, bonotart or RGal defending these fugly monstrosities. Sorry Sarafil, but I expect that from dealership guys. But not from enthusiasts.
I really don't get it.
"It's from BMW so I must be wrong when I find it ugly. It *must* be gorgeous" ?!?!?!
Why do you think we're being disingenuous just because our aesthetic sensibility differs from your own? :dunno:
I'm not lying when I say I think the Z4 and the 6ers are damned sexy looking, and that I find the E60 beautiful as well.
I'm less enthusiastic about the new interiors.
But I'm definitely not in the "if it's from BMW, it must be great" camp. I just honestly like the looks of those cars.
I still think the E65 looks awkward, though I'm used to it.
Your "objectively and universally" comment is off base. As much as you may wish to think your view is the OneTrueView(tm), it is not. It is by definition a subjective judgement, so you shouldn't be confused or befuddled when others don't share your opinion.
GSR13
12-03-2003, 08:22 PM
I don't know TD. I find it somewhat interesting myself.
The only thing I can say is this...
Styling is subjective. What I like, you may not like. It really is all opinion. Driving dynamics are also, to a point, opinion. How much technology is a good thing really depends on what you like in a car. All that said, though, I have to give the guys who have actually driven the car credit. If Hack has driven it, and loves it, then I respect that. If you look at it, and do not like the styling, I respect that. But to somehow state the car is not a BMW is a bit naive, given you have never been in the car. (I am not directing this at you personally, so please do not take it that way).
My point is, the only people who can determine what a BMW should look like, happen to be the guys designing the cars. Who can honestly be more of a BMW purist than BMW AG?
Now, do I agree with the path that they have been taking, absolutely not. I, personally, do not like the styling of the new 5. At least the ones I have seen. The Z4 is middle of the road and the 7, well it is what it is.
But as long as the person defending the car has seen it and driven it, then they are one up on me.
Style is subjective. You think your Saab looks better than a 5 series
Which 5er wagon?
I think the E34 and E39 tourings (sport package, of course) are better looking than the Saab.
But all US spec E34 Tourings were 525 automatics and all manual tranny E39 Tourings were 525s or 528s. And the E39 Tourings are all still rather pricey (for their age and mileage).
As a third car, the Sabb made infinitely more sense for us. And I think the Saab looks great too.
(The E60 Touring, IMO, looks like ASS, just like the sedan. Actually, it looks a bit better than the sedan as the ass-end isn't quite as ASS-y.)
GSR13
12-03-2003, 08:28 PM
For the record, I think most of my complaints could be overcome by changing the lights. Personally, that has been the recent downfall of BMW Designs.
One thing that was mentioned that I have to agree with. All the new stylings, especially the Z4, look 100 times better when the car is in motion.
For the record, I think most of my complaints could be overcome by changing the lights. Personally, that has been the recent downfall of BMW Designs.
One thing that was mentioned that I have to agree with. All the new stylings, especially the Z4, look 100 times better when the car is in motion.
Honestly, I've found circumstances (colors, in motion, certain lighting, etc) where most of the newer models look "okay". The only one that has never looked even remotely okay, IMO, is the Z4. To me, that car is teh single least attractive (BAR NONE) vehicle on the road today by a long shot. No Hyundai, no Aztek, no crusty old Pacer, NOTHING is uglier than the Z4 IMO. And, to me, it's MUCH worse in the flesh. Simply horrible.
GSR13
12-03-2003, 08:40 PM
For the record, I think most of my complaints could be overcome by changing the lights. Personally, that has been the recent downfall of BMW Designs.
One thing that was mentioned that I have to agree with. All the new stylings, especially the Z4, look 100 times better when the car is in motion.
Honestly, I've found circumstances (colors, in motion, certain lighting, etc) where most of the newer models look "okay". The only one that has never looked even remotely okay, IMO, is the Z4. To me, that car is teh single least attractive (BAR NONE) vehicle on the road today by a long shot. No Hyundai, no Aztek, no crusty old Pacer, NOTHING is uglier than the Z4 IMO. And, to me, it's MUCH worse in the flesh. Simply horrible.
I am sorry TD, but nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is uglier than an Aztek.
On a side note, my wife always liked the Z4 in pictures. She currently drives a Z3 and was pretty impressed with all the images of the Z4. Once she saw it in person she immediately disliked the styling. And then it happened. Now, I have never shared this with anyone, because it is pretty disturbing, but she actually found a Z4 she loved. Not liked, LOVED. Of all the cars on the lot, she saw one of those Army Green Z4's with Tan interior and fell in love. Right up until that time, I thought I knew her. :?
For the record, I think most of my complaints could be overcome by changing the lights. Personally, that has been the recent downfall of BMW Designs.
One thing that was mentioned that I have to agree with. All the new stylings, especially the Z4, look 100 times better when the car is in motion.
Honestly, I've found circumstances (colors, in motion, certain lighting, etc) where most of the newer models look "okay". The only one that has never looked even remotely okay, IMO, is the Z4. To me, that car is teh single least attractive (BAR NONE) vehicle on the road today by a long shot. No Hyundai, no Aztek, no crusty old Pacer, NOTHING is uglier than the Z4 IMO. And, to me, it's MUCH worse in the flesh. Simply horrible.
I am sorry TD, but nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is uglier than an Aztek.
On a side note, my wife always liked the Z4 in pictures. She currently drives a Z3 and was pretty impressed with all the images of the Z4. Once she saw it in person she immediately disliked the styling. And then it happened. Now, I have never shared this with anyone, because it is pretty disturbing, but she actually found a Z4 she loved. Not liked, LOVED. Of all the cars on the lot, she saw one of those Army Green Z4's with Tan interior and fell in love. Right up until that time, I thought I knew her. :?
No offense to your wife, but I've seen one of those in person. With good lighting (showroom floor).
And, honestly, it's MUCH uglier than an Aztek. MUCH.
JST was there. So was my wife. So was my daughter (but she doesn't really count). We all agreed. So damn ugly.
GSR13
12-03-2003, 08:47 PM
For the record, I think most of my complaints could be overcome by changing the lights. Personally, that has been the recent downfall of BMW Designs.
One thing that was mentioned that I have to agree with. All the new stylings, especially the Z4, look 100 times better when the car is in motion.
Honestly, I've found circumstances (colors, in motion, certain lighting, etc) where most of the newer models look "okay". The only one that has never looked even remotely okay, IMO, is the Z4. To me, that car is teh single least attractive (BAR NONE) vehicle on the road today by a long shot. No Hyundai, no Aztek, no crusty old Pacer, NOTHING is uglier than the Z4 IMO. And, to me, it's MUCH worse in the flesh. Simply horrible.
I am sorry TD, but nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is uglier than an Aztek.
On a side note, my wife always liked the Z4 in pictures. She currently drives a Z3 and was pretty impressed with all the images of the Z4. Once she saw it in person she immediately disliked the styling. And then it happened. Now, I have never shared this with anyone, because it is pretty disturbing, but she actually found a Z4 she loved. Not liked, LOVED. Of all the cars on the lot, she saw one of those Army Green Z4's with Tan interior and fell in love. Right up until that time, I thought I knew her. :?
No offense to your wife, but I've seen one of those in person. With good lighting (showroom floor).
And, honestly, it's MUCH uglier than an Aztek. MUCH.
JST was there. So was my wife. So was my daughter (but she doesn't really count). We all agreed. So damn ugly.
Well, I agree with everything but the Aztek part. I despise those vehicles. It gets no worse, in my opinion. But the Army Green Z4 is as close as it gets.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=6SsK3.5276%24%25a1.31603%40news.rdc1.az.home. com
From: Michael Enshaie (cpx@home.com)
Subject: new ugly E46
Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw
Date: 1999/10/05
I don't know about you folks, but I just can't get used to the new look (E46). I just thought being a new model you will get used to it with time, but hell no. It looks like the glorified version of a Nissan or Toyota with a BMW logo. Even the interior is awful. From the inside door handles to the trim on the dashboard, the curves are ugly. They took a perfect car with awesome angles(E36) and turned it into an egg shaped car. Just like the 60's mustang that had character. Even the 80's mustang was great with all the angles. When you round the car, it appeals more to women, no offense and there is nothing wrong with it, but being a male and buying a 328 BMW, you want to get that racing spirit and masculine look.
lemming
12-03-2003, 09:00 PM
TD:
i have to admit, i came to realize how much of a curmudgeon i was about styling when i realized that i've never even like the e46 or e39 --they've just grown on me.
so....it's not a stretch to see that while those are evolutionary designs....that i would therefore, react violently (negative) to the new "design language" of BMW. i don't like the superfluous lines on sides of the Z4 but the curious lack of detail on the hood? or the weirdness of the 7 trunk? or those dame edna lamps? or the weirdness of the 6 series trunk? or the lights, front or rear of the 5 series? and then the curious lack of detail on the sides?
these designs never had a snowball's chance with me. newer has never been "better" which is why the 996, for example, has zero charm for me.
the problem i have are with things such as lack of LSDs in the 3 series now, automatic wipers (for cryig out loud!), strange interiors on the E65, sort of strange interior of the Z4, the super lousy X3 interior, and now.....active steering?
if i wanted a numb ride that was luxurious and a car that did almost everything for me (obviously with an automatic tranny), why wouldn't i then buy a lexus or MB?
i feel like BMW has been hijacked by chris bangle and his best friend, dieter from sprockets and somehow, they manage to keep things like formula ONE intact and viable despite themselves. :D
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=6SsK3.5276%24%25a1.31603%40news.rdc1.az.home. com
From: Michael Enshaie (cpx@home.com)
Subject: new ugly E46
Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw
Date: 1999/10/05
I don't know about you folks, but I just can't get used to the new look (E46). I just thought being a new model you will get used to it with time, but hell no. It looks like the glorified version of a Nissan or Toyota with a BMW logo. Even the interior is awful. From the inside door handles to the trim on the dashboard, the curves are ugly. They took a perfect car with awesome angles(E36) and turned it into an egg shaped car. Just like the 60's mustang that had character. Even the 80's mustang was great with all the angles. When you round the car, it appeals more to women, no offense and there is nothing wrong with it, but being a male and buying a 328 BMW, you want to get that racing spirit and masculine look.
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/3series/messages/archive/msgsy1999w40/63601.html
And I wish I had listened to THIS post of mine. I would have saved myself some money- http://bimmer.roadfly.org/e36/messages/archive/msgsy1999w40/17781.html
Shrug...maybe because they like the new designs? I think people have demonstrated pretty well that this happens with every new model introduction. People will hate it but at least as many people will also like it, or even love it.
"The new E__ is fugly, I'm so glad I bought my E(__-1) last week and I'm going to keep it forever." If you could go back in time to the advents of every major BMW, you would probably hear this repeated time after time. These are the same people who typically sit in rocking chairs dressed in furs, their barbarian clubs ready in their laps, grumbling about other topics of interest to them. Things like:
-There are too many states these days, please eliminate three.
-It will be a cold day in hell before I recognize Missour-ah!
-I'm an old man, no one listens to me.
-The grass is sharper than the grass in my day....
;)
Shrug...maybe because they like the new designs? I think people have demonstrated pretty well that this happens with every new model introduction. People will hate it but at least as many people will also like it, or even love it.
"The new E__ is fugly, I'm so glad I bought my E(__-1) last week and I'm going to keep it forever." If you could go back in time to the advents of every major BMW, you would probably hear this repeated time after time. These are the same people who typically sit in rocking chairs dressed in furs, their barbarian clubs ready in their laps, grumbling about other topics of interest to them. Things like:
-There are too many states these days, please eliminate three.
-It will be a cold day in hell before I recognize Missour-ah!
-I'm an old man, no one listens to me.
-The grass is sharper than the grass in my day....
;)
In case you forgot...
http://members.roadfly.com/TD/td.gif
lemming
12-03-2003, 09:59 PM
Shrug...maybe because they like the new designs? I think people have demonstrated pretty well that this happens with every new model introduction. People will hate it but at least as many people will also like it, or even love it.
"The new E__ is fugly, I'm so glad I bought my E(__-1) last week and I'm going to keep it forever." If you could go back in time to the advents of every major BMW, you would probably hear this repeated time after time. These are the same people who typically sit in rocking chairs dressed in furs, their barbarian clubs ready in their laps, grumbling about other topics of interest to them. Things like:
-There are too many states these days, please eliminate three.
-It will be a cold day in hell before I recognize Missour-ah!
-I'm an old man, no one listens to me.
-The grass is sharper than the grass in my day....
;)
funny how CAR, TopGear, Car&Driver, MotorTrend, Automobile and Roundel are all full of curmudgeons who hate the new designs.
at least i'm in good company.
:eek:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=6SsK3.5276%24%25a1.31603%40news.rdc1.az.home. com
From: Michael Enshaie (cpx@home.com)
Subject: new ugly E46
Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw
Date: 1999/10/05
I don't know about you folks, but I just can't get used to the new look (E46). I just thought being a new model you will get used to it with time, but hell no. It looks like the glorified version of a Nissan or Toyota with a BMW logo. Even the interior is awful. From the inside door handles to the trim on the dashboard, the curves are ugly. They took a perfect car with awesome angles(E36) and turned it into an egg shaped car. Just like the 60's mustang that had character. Even the 80's mustang was great with all the angles. When you round the car, it appeals more to women, no offense and there is nothing wrong with it, but being a male and buying a 328 BMW, you want to get that racing spirit and masculine look.
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/3series/messages/archive/msgsy1999w40/63601.html
And I wish I had listened to THIS post of mine. I would have saved myself some money- http://bimmer.roadfly.org/e36/messages/archive/msgsy1999w40/17781.html
Your own words:
"My point is, however, that which body style is preferable is very much a matter of personal preference. Broad statements like yours are a little presumptive."
:thumbup:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=6SsK3.5276%24%25a1.31603%40news.rdc1.az.home. com
From: Michael Enshaie (cpx@home.com)
Subject: new ugly E46
Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw
Date: 1999/10/05
I don't know about you folks, but I just can't get used to the new look (E46). I just thought being a new model you will get used to it with time, but hell no. It looks like the glorified version of a Nissan or Toyota with a BMW logo. Even the interior is awful. From the inside door handles to the trim on the dashboard, the curves are ugly. They took a perfect car with awesome angles(E36) and turned it into an egg shaped car. Just like the 60's mustang that had character. Even the 80's mustang was great with all the angles. When you round the car, it appeals more to women, no offense and there is nothing wrong with it, but being a male and buying a 328 BMW, you want to get that racing spirit and masculine look.
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/3series/messages/archive/msgsy1999w40/63601.html
And I wish I had listened to THIS post of mine. I would have saved myself some money- http://bimmer.roadfly.org/e36/messages/archive/msgsy1999w40/17781.html
Your own words:
"My point is, however, that which body style is preferable is very much a matter of personal preference. Broad statements like yours are a little presumptive."
:thumbup:
But that was in 1999. I was younger then. :lol:
But that was in 1999. I was younger then. :lol:
:shock: :lol:
We give BMW all thumbs up for applying so much new design without spoiling a classic.
But, is the 2004 BMW 5 Series still the best sports sedan in the world? YES.
We give BMW all thumbs up for applying so much new design without spoiling a classic.
But, is the 2004 BMW 5 Series still the best sports sedan in the world? YES.
Who's quote is that? I assume it's a magazine. Which one?
lemming
12-03-2003, 10:34 PM
We give BMW all thumbs up for applying so much new design without spoiling a classic.
But, is the 2004 BMW 5 Series still the best sports sedan in the world? YES.
Who's quote is that? I assume it's a magazine. Which one?
it wasn't Roundel and likely was NOT CAR or TopGear.
We give BMW all thumbs up for applying so much new design without spoiling a classic.
But, is the 2004 BMW 5 Series still the best sports sedan in the world? YES.
Who's quote is that? I assume it's a magazine. Which one?
It was the aforementioned MotorWeek (TV) review.
My point in referencing it is, I believe that show best represents "the people" (the car-buying public in general).
I think that you are just too immersed in BMW culture/"enthuiasm" to have any perspective as to what the general public feels about BMW's designs.
We give BMW all thumbs up for applying so much new design without spoiling a classic.
But, is the 2004 BMW 5 Series still the best sports sedan in the world? YES.
Who's quote is that? I assume it's a magazine. Which one?
It was the aforementioned MotorWeek (TV) review.
My point in referencing it is, I believe that show best represents "the people" (the car-buying public in general).
I think that you are just too immersed in BMW culture/"enthuiasm" to have any perspective as to what the general public feels about BMW's designs.
You think? :lol:
Dude, we don't spend countless hours online discussing these cars because we are the "general public". And the "general public" likes lots of mediocre products. "Mediocre" actually sells really well. Much better than "excellent".
It's like polling the public as to what their favorite flavor of ice cream is? Vanilla is going to win. Is it YOUR favorite? Would YOU call it the best flavor?
If your favorite flavor is damn obscure, you are probably pretty fanatical about seeking it out and enjoying it from time to time. But very few people would ever agree with you that it's their favorite. And most wouldn't even know that favor exists.
You're basically telling me that BMWs have succeeded in becoming more like vanilla and you're saying it as if it's a good thing.
I cannot agree with that position.
You think? :lol:
Dude, we don't spend countless hours online discussing these cars because we are the "general public". And the "general public" likes lots of mediocre products. "Mediocre" actually sells really well. Much better than "excellent".
It's like polling the public as to what their favorite flavor of ice cream is? Vanilla is going to win. Is it YOUR favorite? Would YOU call it the best flavor?
If your favorite flavor is damn obscure, you are probably pretty fanatical about seeking it out and enjoying it from time to time. But very few people would ever agree with you that it's their favorite. And most wouldn't even know that favor exists.
You're basically telling me that BMWs have succeeded in becoming more like vanilla and you're saying it as if it's a good thing.
I cannot agree with that position.
If you'll notice (which I don't think you actually have, because you lumped me in with plaz and rgal in the other thread), I have rarely made any comment on the new designs. I've stated many times that the E65 front looks awful--worse than the rear--and that the supposed facelift improves it greatly. I am completely underwhelmed by the E60 and E85. I don't think they are ugly, they are just plain. Vanilla is right :smile: .
But, your statement in the opening post was :
Objectively and pretty universally, these new BMW models have been derided as un-BMW-like and pretty damn ugly.
That's just not the case :dunno:
lemming
12-03-2003, 11:06 PM
figures that it was MotorWeek/MotorTrend.
blech.
on a sidenote: lexus leads all luxury makers by selling rebadged toyotas. toyota. that paragon of style and performance.
tells you that BMW sees the writing on the wall and want to also increase its sales. but it, as a company, is determined to do it not the japanese way (selling products at a severe loss and then slowly increasing the price) or by rebadging economy cars/SUVs....they're going to do it by product differentiation (style) as well as some semblance of dynamic superiority.
they may well succeed. kudos to them.
(thank god for choice in the automotive world, too!, if this is the case).
p.s. by switching to an elise, bonoboy proves our point de facto.
Edmunds Editors Most Wanted Awards 2004
Most Wanted Sedan under $45,000
Winner: BMW 5 Series
All new inside and out, the 5 Series is better in nearly every respect — not bad when you consider there wasn't much wrong with the previous model. A unique new steering system and a few hand-me-down parts from the top-line 7 Series further hone the 5's exemplary ride and handling while the continued use of BMW's world-renown straight sixes, along with an even more powerful V8, assures more than adequate straight performance. Even the addition of the cumbersome iDrive system hasn't dampened our enthusiasm for this top-notch sport sedan as it's not only easier to use, it allowed the designers to clean up the interior a bit. Its looks may be controversial, but its status as our favorite midsize sport sedan remains unchanged.
GSR13
12-03-2003, 11:32 PM
Whether you like them or not, it appears to me that BMW is finally heading in the direction that the general public has always assumed they were in. Now, this is strictly my opinion, but here is what I see.
BMW was a car company that built a drivers car. They cared more about driving dynamics and engineering a great car, more than heated seats and a smooth ride. They were almost like a cult classic. At some point along the way, people began to buy the car because they felt it was a high end luxury vehicle. A competitor to Mercedes, if you will. As more and more people began to purchase a BMW for this reason, those same people probably questioned the "rough" ride and heavy steering. Unfortunately, they took the route of addressing the concerns of this marketplace. That suddenly, a 3 Series buyer wanted the same ride and luxury standard as a 7 Series buyer. Oddly enough, for the general public, that may well be true.
The problem, in my opinion, is BMW really does not know how to do this. They know how to build a driver's car, and they know how to build a luxury car, but they have no idea how to combine the two and please everyone. When people like us look at BMW, we want the performance and feel that all the other "stuff" gets in the way. When the average buyer goes to look at a 3 Series, they expect a Mercedes/Lexus type vehicle and wonder why the ride is so rough.
I do not think BMW has suddenly forgotten how to design and build a great car, they simply do not know where their niche is.
To fix this, they need to introduce a modern day replacement for the E30. Something that is lower priced than the 3 Series and all about Engineering and Performance. They need to seperate their luxury vehicles from their performance vehicles and I mean really seperate them. Give the enthusiast a true enthusiast car. Something with traditional BMW styling and quality to match. Make the car about the Car/Road/Driver connection and make the thing in a two and four door variant. Then advertise the car as such.
Just one guy's opinion, but I would gladly trade the E46 in for a modern day E30 M3.
But, as stated in other threads here, BMW have been purveyors of "luxury cars with performance" for roughly the last 40 years. JST pointed out earlier that even the E30 M3 came loaded from the factory, and the 3.0 CSL cars were really luxury GT cars before they were race cars. Even the M1, a car conceived originally to go racing, was sold to the public full of luxury items. The reason why older BMWs seem sportier and more direct than newer BMWs is the same reason why older Benzes also seem sportier. The concept of "luxury" has evolved over the years, and what was once considered luxurious is now below what you'd find in a new Cavalier.
The company has not lost its magic. Everything I've read -- even the reviews that do not like the styling or Active Steering or iDrive -- has stated that the new chassis are exceptional. They are quick, fast, and nimble like all BMWs. There is debate over the styling and the recent spate of electronic gadgetry, but nothing I have read has even HINTED that the new BMWs are missing the performance and handling marks.
lemming
12-04-2003, 09:43 AM
But, as stated in other threads here, BMW have been purveyors of "luxury cars with performance" for roughly the last 40 years. JST pointed out earlier that even the E30 M3 came loaded from the factory, and the 3.0 CSL cars were really luxury GT cars before they were race cars. Even the M1, a car conceived originally to go racing, was sold to the public full of luxury items. The reason why older BMWs seem sportier and more direct than newer BMWs is the same reason why older Benzes also seem sportier. The concept of "luxury" has evolved over the years, and what was once considered luxurious is now below what you'd find in a new Cavalier.
The company has not lost its magic. Everything I've read -- even the reviews that do not like the styling or Active Steering or iDrive -- has stated that the new chassis are exceptional. They are quick, fast, and nimble like all BMWs. There is debate over the styling and the recent spate of electronic gadgetry, but nothing I have read has even HINTED that the new BMWs are missing the performance and handling marks.
oh sure. i'd agree with that.
they still manage to do impressive things. i'd just like to be able to keep all of those gizmo's as options instead of standard equipment on "sport package" models, for instance.
or M models for sure.
SpaceMonk
12-04-2003, 10:16 AM
oh sure. i'd agree with that.
they still manage to do impressive things. i'd just like to be able to keep all of those gizmo's as options instead of standard equipment on "sport package" models, for instance.
or M models for sure.
I agree. And I also agree with your previous comment that not having LSD in the 3-series anymore (except the M3) is a mistake. Especially with the Performance Package (if not even with the sport package).
And speaking of sport packages, the Mazda RX-8 sport package is Xenon headlights, fog lights, and DSC. Nothing "sport" about any of those.
lemming
12-04-2003, 10:48 AM
oh sure. i'd agree with that.
they still manage to do impressive things. i'd just like to be able to keep all of those gizmo's as options instead of standard equipment on "sport package" models, for instance.
or M models for sure.
I agree. And I also agree with your previous comment that not having LSD in the 3-series anymore (except the M3) is a mistake. Especially with the Performance Package (if not even with the sport package).
And speaking of sport packages, the Mazda RX-8 sport package is Xenon headlights, fog lights, and DSC. Nothing "sport" about any of those.
yeah, i dunno about the Z car "track package" either.
the one marque that seems to hold true is Mitsu, they have the Evo RS now sans HIDs, rear wing, A/C, radio and sound insulation. THAT is the car to buy and to then tune for the track, obviously.
Come on, this is a gorgeous car. With these colors, I even like the interior.
http://homepage.mac.com/campo2118/.Pictures/web%20gallery/5er7.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/campo2118/.Pictures/web%20gallery/5er3.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/campo2118/.Pictures/web%20gallery/5er14.jpg
lemming
12-04-2003, 11:03 AM
Plaz:
the rear 3/4 view looks like a Camry. i'm serious.
the front is decent, there is cohesion and tautness there.
the interior looks "okay". i'd like for a car w/o iDrive, but it's a work in progress, right? the leather quality and switchgear looks like typical german quality.
(cough). not like the X3 interior.
Come on, this is a gorgeous car. With these colors, I even like the interior.
(Pics removed)
Um Plaz, I think you've been in California too long.
I can't say I find that even remotely acceptable looking. It's bad. Really bad.
The side view is okay. The lighting/shapes at both the front and rear ends are atrocious. And the interior is too busy with conflicting shapes/materials.
You guys are funny. :lol:
That being said, I freely admit to having been in CA too long. That will be changing soon.
SpaceMonk
12-04-2003, 11:35 AM
Definitely not appealing. And those eyebrows at night? :shudder:
Come on, this is a gorgeous car. With these colors, I even like the interior.
FYI, Plaz, you posted the wrong links. The pics you linked to under this description were of an E60.
Those were the wrong links, right? :?
GSR13
12-04-2003, 11:41 AM
Come on, this is a gorgeous car. With these colors, I even like the interior.
FYI, Plaz, you posted the wrong links. The pics you linked to under this description were of an E60.
Those were the wrong links, right? :?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I still think the headlights and taillights kill the car. The lines on the body honestly do not bother nearly as bad as the lights. I just do not understand the sudden move for car companies trying to make lights some form of a statement, especially on what _should_ be a conservative car.
Come on, this is a gorgeous car. With these colors, I even like the interior.
FYI, Plaz, you posted the wrong links. The pics you linked to under this description were of an E60.
Those were the wrong links, right? :?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I still think the headlights and taillights kill the car. The lines on the body honestly do not bother nearly as bad as the lights. I just do not understand the sudden move for car companies trying to make lights some form of a statement, especially on what _should_ be a conservative car.
I'd wager that in about three years, those lights *will* look conservative.
I don't see anything all that avant garde about the taillights. The headlights are unusual.
Come on, this is a gorgeous car. With these colors, I even like the interior.
FYI, Plaz, you posted the wrong links. The pics you linked to under this description were of an E60.
Those were the wrong links, right? :?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I still think the headlights and taillights kill the car. The lines on the body honestly do not bother nearly as bad as the lights. I just do not understand the sudden move for car companies trying to make lights some form of a statement, especially on what _should_ be a conservative car.
I'd wager that in about three years, those lights *will* look conservative.
I don't see anything all that avant garde about the taillights. The headlights are unusual.
Actually, the exterior styling of the E60 doesn't bother me as much as the styling of the E65. It has internal design cohesion that the details of the E65 just don't have.
At the same time, I do think it looks trendy. I think it will date poorly, in the same way that the new Camrys and 1996 Tauri look "of the moment" one minute and passe the next. This is a stark contrast to prior BMW practice (save, perhaps, the E36), which sought to pen shapes staunchly resistant to fashion trends in the auto industry.
And the interior, no bullshit, makes me want to barf.
clyde
12-04-2003, 11:55 AM
And speaking of sport packages, the Mazda RX-8 sport package is Xenon headlights, fog lights, and DSC. Nothing "sport" about any of those.
Yeah, "Sport" doesn't make sense for that package on the RX-8...with manual transmission...in the US. The manual in the US comes standard with the LSD, sport suspension, larger front brakes and 18" wheels, but they are all part of the Sport package for the slushbox version. In Canada (and apparently some other markets as well), the base manual version comes equipped mostly the same way as the US auto tranny, and those items are included in their Sport package, or a la carte.
Still goofy to call it sport when it's only lights and a computer nanny, though.
clyde
12-04-2003, 11:57 AM
That being said, I freely admit to having been in CA too long. That will be changing soon.
Too bad. :(
Hope that you adjust better than I have.
Now contrast this...
http://homepage.mac.com/campo2118/.Pictures/web%20gallery/5er14.jpg
with this...
http://www.concordmotorsport.com/photos/5555photo_9.jpg
I know which one I'd rather have.
http://www.concordmotorsport.com/photos/5555photo_9.jpg
:awe: :awe: :awe:
steering wheel looks like it came out of a school bus!
clyde
12-04-2003, 12:08 PM
Now contrast this...
with this...
I know which one I'd rather have.
Duh...one is a stick and one is a slushie. :crazy: :D
Style is subjective. You think your Saab looks better than a 5 series
Which 5er wagon?
Honestly, I don't remember. Someone posted a pictuer of a BMW wagon and you responded with a pic of your car (nice) which you said you thought looked better (which I disagreed with). The disagreement was the point of course.
I think the new 5 is great - for my dad to have. The e500 would do just as well from my persepective. I do think the steering wheel is hideous, the door panels are goofy and the idrive is stupid. On the other hand, the car rides amazingly well from the passenger seat (take that for what it's worth - I haven't driven one yet). I think they look good in dark colors, in person, in motion. You don't. It's subjective.
I could make statements as definitive as those you have made about calling any car uglier than an Aztek. I feel about the Aztek the same way you feel about the new BMW series. Would that make you wrong? :lol:
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