2006 National Tour schedule (or why clyde is thinking of selling the RX8)

[clyde]

There is an unofficial 2006 Tour schedule floating around and it does not bring great joy to my heart:

2/18-2/19 Ft Myers NT
Mid March - San Diego NT
4/1-4/2 Walnut Ridge NT
4/22-4/23 Houston NT
4/29-4/30 Atwater NT
5/27-5/28 Peru NT
6/10-6/11 Deven NT
7/1-7/2 Milwaukee NT
7/15-7/16 Denver NT
8/5-8/6 Packwood NT

I probably can't make Peru since there's a wedding that I should go to, which leaves only one Tour within 800 miles of DC (Deven). So, that would mean the car's National schedule would likely be just two events, Deven and Topeka. And that leaves me asking if it's worth keeping the car for this coming year.

I've been talking with a few people today. The more a couple of them try to poke holes in the idea, the more sound selling the RX-8 and developing John's Boxster in 2006 instead of 2007 seems like a good idea.

:gulp:

[rumatt]

To summarize our previous conversations......


- Keep the RX8
- Focus on driving
- Your local events are amazing; treat them as tours.
- Kick ass in Devens and Topeka.
- Fly to other N.T. events and co-drive someone else's RX8. Driving a car that is slightly different than your own may be good for you (force you to adjust), and give you setup ideas.

Your performance at Topeka next year will be determined by your overall approach, not by the tour schedule.

Oh, and finally

- Complaints about the RX8 as a daily driver are forbidden. You're an autox'er. Suck it up.



(PS, you would have given me this exact advice if I had asked you this question).

[John V]

To summarize our previous conversations......


- Keep the RX8
- Focus on driving
- Your local events are amazing; treat them as tours.
- Kick ass in Devens and Topeka.
- Fly to other N.T. events and co-drive someone else's RX8. Driving a car that is slightly different than your own may be good for you (force you to adjust), and give you setup ideas.

Your performance at Topeka next year will be determined by your overall approach, not by the tour schedule.

Oh, and finally

- Complaints about the RX8 as a daily driver are forbidden. You're an autox'er. Suck it up.



(PS, you would have given me this exact advice if I had asked you this question).

I would tend to agree, and would like to apply all of the above to myself as well.

[clyde]

Your performance at Topeka next year will be determined by your overall approach, not by the tour schedule.

and quite subject to the whims of my mental deficiencies...something that can not be discounted. Spending an entire year putting pretty much everything into a single event is not the way to combat that.

- Complaints about the RX8 as a daily driver are forbidden. You're an autox'er. Suck it up.

(PS, you would have given me this exact advice if I had asked you this question).

When it entails an opportunity cost of $3-4,000 (depreciation) that can never be recovered (but can be prevented) which could otherwise go toward developing "next year's" car, the equation changes. It's not about whether or not to make the commitment. It's between a car that I know can win, but will sit useless for most of the year and cost me money that I can't get back and put into another next, versus spending money on something that might be able to win and actively develop it, learn it and sink money into it which can be recovered at a later date and applied to prepping and developing the next car after that. While all this is going on, it just may happen that the vehicle that replaces the RX-8 would be something that can tow the Boxster.

In the past, some people have tried to decide between doing things half assed or not at all and I have pushed them towards doing things fully assed if they're going to do them at all. The difference here is that I am trying to figure out which way is the most fully assed. If we knew that Solo II was going to end after 2006, the answer would be clear. But there will be a 2007, and then a 2008 and so on (at least we hope). That makes it less clear when the 2004 RX-8 is unlikely to be a continuing option come 2007.

[bren]

You know the RX8 is the car to have...and it just so happens that you have one. I say take advantage of that while you can.

[rumatt]

You know the RX8 is the car to have...and it just so happens that you have one. I say take advantage of that while you can.

It's not always as simple as that.


But sometime it is.


Wisdom is knowing the difference.



:?

[clyde]

you guys are no help

[rumatt]

Spending an entire year putting pretty much everything into a single event is not the way to combat that.

Yeah, I agree completely. It's not healthy, and is a bad idea. I assumed this was your goal, but if it's not that's a good thing.

If we knew that Solo II was going to end after 2006, the answer would be clear.

I maintain: doing whatever will make you the better driver by the end of 2006 will likely maximize your happiness in the long run. All other factors (within reason) are secondary.

[John V]

Just for our own information, here's the info I've compiled on what it takes to
get the Boxster competitive in stock class (and it still is probably not the best car for the class):

Wheels/tires:

1 set stock wheels for 245/35/18 V710s.
Front: 18x7.5", et50, 5x130
Rear: 18x9", et52, 5x130
Cost: $800-$1200 plus tires we already have.

1 set stock wheels for rains. Can probably get away with 17's and run the 245/40/17 Hoosier wets or street tires.
Front: 17x7"
Rear: 17x8.5"
Cost: $250-$400 plus tires we don't already have.

Front sway bar:
911 GT3 adjustable bar, 26.7mm, $260 with new endlinks (can't use stock endlinks with this bar)
H&R adjustable bar, 26.0mm, $240, uses stock endlinks
(stock bar is 23.7mm, US030 bar is 24.0mm)
H&R bar is probably the best compromise. Many report the GT3 bar being good only on the most slalom-intensive courses.

Shocks/springs
US030 package including rear bar, springs and shocks. Cost ~$1000-1200

Exhaust
Remove stock exhaust and run turndowns, cost ~$20, weight savings 35lbs.
No appreciable performance gain for aftermarket exhausts, which are $700-$1200 anyway, and just as heavy as stock.

Additional stuff needed: Truck and dolley for towing. :ack:

[rumatt]

You guys are absolutely nuts to not run the RX8 next year.

WTF?!

[John V]

You guys are absolutely nuts to not run the RX8 next year.

WTF?!

I would much prefer to run the RX-8. Prepping the Boxster is not something that is financially in the cards for me at the moment. But I did the research to figure out what it would need so I thought I'd post it up.

JV

[rumatt]

I would much prefer to run the RX-8. Prepping the Boxster is not something that is financially in the cards for me at the moment. But I did the research to figure out what it would need so I thought I'd post it up.


Yeah, didn't mean to imply you were arguing in favor of it.

I was just trying to piss off you-know-who.

[Rob]

I expect to see you in march. We will find something for you to drive.

[clyde]

The cost issue is a red herring at best since the cost of prepping the Boxster is less than I can pull from the RX-8.

I'm really not keen on the idea of letting the RX-8 sit in front of my house all year, being mostly useless, while praying that it doesn't rain or snow at HPT in Topeka on 9/26/2006 and 9/27/2006. Is anyone here willing to bet a years worth of depreciation on top of actual participatory costs that there won't be inclement weather on two consecutive days at a location known for highly variable weather 10 months from now?

[bren]

I know where you can get a deal on very lightly used Hoosier Rains.

[John V]

The cost issue is a red herring at best since the cost of prepping the Boxster is less than I can pull from the RX-8.

I'm really not keen on the idea of letting the RX-8 sit in front of my house all year, being mostly useless, while praying that it doesn't rain or snow at HPT in Topeka on 9/26/2006 and 9/27/2006. Is anyone here willing to bet a years worth of depreciation on top of actual participatory costs that there won't be inclement weather on two consecutive days at a location known for highly variable weather 10 months from now?

I don't see it as a red herring at all. I still have to put money and work into the Boxster when it's not even clear that it can compete. :dunno: Yeah, you have money to throw at the problem which may defer the initial costs to me until a later time, but at some point we'll have to sell off parts (wheels, tires) or I'll have to buy you out (M030 and bar). The fact of the matter is that right now you and I are nearly square on the RX-8 (I own half of the swaybar and half of the exhaust but you bought the Kodiaks) and we can run the car AS-IS. We have enough tires to last us the entire year with the exception of the obligatory new set for Nationals. The Boxster is going to require a few thousand up front (as in, before March) just to get going.

Your stance, as I understood it from our conversation yesterday, is that you don't want to "waste the year" driving and fine-tuning the RX-8 for two events (Devens and Topeka) at which we KNOW the car is capable of winnign. You would rather "utilize the year" developing, financing and learning to drive a NEW car for two events at which we DO NOT KNOW the car is capable of winning. Did I mention it demands a very different driving technique than you're used to?

I love the Boxster and I THINK it can compete and I would love to prep it. My thought is with another season of driving plus a school or two I have a chance of winning Nats. For that, I think the RX-8 is the best bet.

[rumatt]

I'm really not keen on the idea of letting the RX-8 sit in front of my house all year, being mostly useless, while praying that it doesn't rain or snow at HPT in Topeka on 9/26/2006 and 9/27/2006.

You're mixing topics here. Whether you obsess all year about a single event is independent of whether you sell the RX8. It's only "mostly useless" all year long if you make it that way. It's still a car that you can a) have fun driving, b) improve your driving with, and c) win with. What more is there?

In fact, by selling the 8 and trying to prep another car early for 2007, you're putting all your eggs in the 2007 topeka basket. That's even worse.

[clyde]

I don't see it as a red herring at all. I still have to put money and work into the Boxster when it's not even clear that it can compete.... The Boxster is going to require a few thousand up front (as in, before March) just to get going.

Re: the latter part, it's do it now or do it this time next year. There's more money to do it now. Re: the former part, it's even less clear whether it will be able to compete in 2007, but the field is pretty much set for 2006. If it can compete, it can compete now. 2007 is a bigger question. If 2006 proves to show the car as uncompetitive, we can start fresh with something else in 2007 (whether jointly or seperately). And if it seems that bad, we can get rides in other cars in Topeka in 2006.

Your stance, as I understood it from our conversation yesterday, is that you don't want to "waste the year" driving and fine-tuning the RX-8 for two events (Devens and Topeka) at which we KNOW the car is capable of winnign. You would rather "utilize the year" developing, financing and learning to drive a NEW car for two events at which we DO NOT KNOW the car is capable of winning. Did I mention it demands a very different driving technique than you're used to?

No matter what we drive in Topeka in 2006, we'll be doing it on a new surface that we're unfamiliar with. No matter how well we get the car (whatever "the car" is) working at FedEx, Topeka will be different. With where the RX-8 is now, there's no reliable metric we can use at FedEx to even measure our progress with the car itself. Different requirements in driving style/technique from car to car aren't so great as to set us back more than a local event or two. The driving is just driving and it doesn't really matter what car it's in or how it's set up.

I love the Boxster and I THINK it can compete and I would love to prep it. My thought is with another season of driving plus a school or two I have a chance of winning Nats. For that, I think the RX-8 is the best bet.

I want to compete nationally and the local stuff is just filler/seat time. The schedule makes it nearly impossible (within reason) to campaign my RX-8 at that level this year. A one-off Tour (and on old tires at that, as you're suggesting, along with, perhaps, very little real competition) and the championships (on a surface that we'll have 12 combined runs on at most) leaves a lot to be desired, IMO. Enough so, that 2006 starts looking a lot like a throw away to me in terms of car choice and exploring other options that may have more long term benefits while setting a more favorable stage for 2007 and beyond looks ever more appealing.

That you think your best chance in Topeka next year is to run in my car is a fair enough thought. The problem I have is that knowing myself as I do, putting it all in to that one event does not give me my best chance then and there.

[clyde]

You're mixing topics here. Whether you obsess all year about a single event is independent of whether you sell the RX8. It's only "mostly useless" all year long if you make it that way. It's still a car that you can a) have fun driving, b) improve your driving with, and c) win with. What more is there?

a) I'll have fun driving whatever I'm driving, whether it's an RX-8, a Boxster, a Mustang, an M3, or almost anything else you and I can think of. The RX-8 may be more fun to drive than the others, but they'll all be in the acceptable range at worst.

b) My driving will or won't improve no matter what I'm driving.

c) Win what?...which is the point. Winning locally doesn't matter. Only two national events in the car makes it a dicey proposition at best and it brings it right to the edge of being worth the time, effort and expense.

In fact, by selling the 8 and trying to prep another car early for 2007, you're putting all your eggs in the 2007 topeka basket. That's even worse.

Not at all. Prepping the Boxster now would be for 2006 in the short term. Determining the viability of the car for 2007 is a longer term benefit. If it proves to be the wrong car, then it's off to car X for 2007. Even if we prep the Boxster for 2006, take it to Topeka and win with it, it still might be the wrong car for 2007.

[John V]

The new topkea surface will be closer to what we drive at FedEx than it was last year :dunno: . It will be grippier than FedEx but not as grippy as the concrete. There is always the warmup event to get a feel for the competition asphalt.

We have two distinctly different viewpoints. You see 2006 as a throwaway year since there aren't as many good tours local. I see 2006 as the best chance we have to win a championship which is the only thing I care about. Besides, what tours realistically did we lose? Atlanta was a throwaway tour last year anyway. Topeka was a good lot but crappy courses. Only worth it in terms of the experience. We only went to Peru because the surface was similar to Topeka and it was well populated. Do you think it will be as well populated now that it's no longer the Topeka warm-up?

My goal is to improve my driving in general and learn the car and its setup better. Starting over before figuring it out will be frustrating. Especially when our hand isn't being forced by a classing change.

[bren]

I see 2006 as the best chance we have to win a championship....

[John V]

I meant in the RX-8.

[bren]

I meant in the RX-8.
As did I.

[clyde]

The new topkea surface will be closer to what we drive at FedEx than it was last year :dunno: . It will be grippier than FedEx but not as grippy as the concrete. There is always the warmup event to get a feel for the competition asphalt.

We have two distinctly different viewpoints. You see 2006 as a throwaway year since there aren't as many good tours local. I see 2006 as the best chance we have to win a championship which is the only thing I care about. Besides, what tours realistically did we lose? Atlanta was a throwaway tour last year anyway. Topeka was a good lot but crappy courses. Only worth it in terms of the experience. We only went to Peru because the surface was similar to Topeka and it was well populated. Do you think it will be as well populated now that it's no longer the Topeka warm-up?

My goal is to improve my driving in general and learn the car and its setup better. Starting over before figuring it out will be frustrating. Especially when our hand isn't being forced by a classing change.

And I'm sure that you meant Toledo, too. :eeps:

Toledo sucked because the course was bad, the surface was slicker when dry than it normally is and we got caught in the rain. All three of those things can happen at any event. But you go, and you deal with it, and you go on. You still benefit from the experience and competition while making the most of it. If there were five Tours on the schedule within easy distance of here and I went to them all, and they all had the same problems, I'd be ticked, sure, but it would still be better than staying at home because they might not be wonderful. :dunno:

Atlanta just wasn't as bad as you've made it out to be, IMO, and I'd have gone back to the same site.

You may have gone to Peru because of the similarity to Topeka, but I would have gone without you...and I'd be going next year with or without you if my cousin had picked a better weekend to get married (and we might not even be having this discussion) :irate: I don't know if they will have (or even allow) over 400 people again, but I would expect it to be very well attended. While there's no Topeka benefit, it's one of only two tours within 800 miles of the mid atlantic (using DC at the center point). It's also more accesible to much of the midwest than Milwaukee, blah blah blah. And they have a history of good, enjoyable events.

We have the RX-8 figured out. There really isn't anything left to do other than experiment and fiddle just to do it. Everything that's left is in the driver(s), and that can be fixed in any car.

[rumatt]

We have the RX-8 figured out. There really isn't anything left to do other than experiment and fiddle just to do it. Everything that's left is in the driver(s)

Therefore you should throw out the car and create new car problems so you can avoid solving the driver problems? :scratch:

[John V]

We have the RX-8 figured out. There really isn't anything left to do other than experiment and fiddle just to do it. Everything that's left is in the driver(s), and that can be fixed in any car.

Atlanta was as bad or worse than I made it out to be. The lot was small, the courses were short and it was a long-ass drive.

I've made my points... you can agree or disagree but it comes down to whether you act on it and sell the car. Guess I just have to wait and see... :dunno:

[clyde]

there's a reason it's called silly season

I've done something silly

:eeps:

[bren]

there's a reason it's called silly season

I've done something silly

:eeps:
Did you buy an Audi? :p

[Plaz]

there's a reason it's called silly season

I've done something silly

:eeps:


Uh oh...

http://www.edmunds.com/media/roadtests/firstdrive/2005/buick.lacrosse/05.buick.lacrosse.f34.500.jpg

:dunno:

[clyde]

I did not buy an Audi and I did not buy a Buick

[bren]

http://forums.cycleworld.com/groupee_files/attachments/2/2/0/2200016521/2200016521_F650_Beast.jpg?ts=438E5F91&key=642657DFC5C7CE3A466D966443EDB860&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.cycleworld.com%2Feve% 2Fubb.x%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F3200016521%2FF650_Beast.jp g

[Plaz]

http://forums.cycleworld.com/groupee_files/attachments/2/2/0/2200016521/2200016521_F650_Beast.jpg?ts=438E5F91&key=642657DFC5C7CE3A466D966443EDB860&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.cycleworld.com%2Feve% 2Fubb.x%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F3200016521%2FF650_Beast.jp g

Excellent! :lol:

[bren]

http://pics.maunier.org/big_turbo.jpg

[JST]

I did not buy an Audi and I did not buy a Buick


Did you lease a Buick?

Got one of the last Oldsmobile Aleros on the lot?

Left over Aztek?

Mustang?

[JST]

http://pics.maunier.org/big_turbo.jpg

I like his air filter. Should keep small chickens and large rodents out, anyway.

[JST]

I did not buy an Audi and I did not buy a Buick

Maybe you are leaving from Dulles?

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showpost.php?p=85458&postcount=28

[Plaz]

Maybe you are leaving from Dulles?

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showpost.php?p=85458&postcount=28


Arrgh. Blocked.

[clyde]

Arrgh. Blocked.
inside Team WTF?! joke :eeps:

these are not the droids you're looking for

[JST]

inside Team WTF?! joke :eeps:

these are not the droids you're looking for

Oops.

Gotta pay more attention to where the threads I'm linking to are posted.

Sorry.

[Plaz]

I feel so inadequate.

*sniff* *whine* Someday I'm going to be the most powerful jedi evaar! *sniff*

:lol:

[John V]

there's a reason it's called silly season

I've done something silly

:eeps:

How silly is "silly?"

I'm scurred. :ack:

[JST]

How silly is "silly?"

I'm scurred. :ack:


http://www.jaj.com/space/efrazier/images/gnx.jpg

I think it'll make a good autocrosser. What are you worried about, John?

[clyde]

http://www.jaj.com/space/efrazier/images/gnx.jpg

I think it'll make a good autocrosser. What are you worried about, John?
It would kill in Pro Solo launching.

[John V]

It would kill in Pro Solo launching.

Not in its class, it wouldn't.

[clyde]

FS and ESP? It should.

[clyde]

there's a reason it's called silly season

I've done something silly

:eeps:

http://www.race-technology.com/WebPage2/Graphics/ProductPictures/DL1_diagram.gif

There's a group buy that ends tomorrow with very good or great pricing (depending on how many people buy).

The RX-8 stays for another year...but nothing that any of you said moved me in that direction. :rolleyes:

Who wants to buy our Gtech Pro RR?

[rumatt]

but nothing that any of you said moved me in that direction. :rolleyes:


Um, obviously. We all know that you don't listen. :twisted:

Who wants to buy our Gtech Pro RR?

Tell me more. I don't know what your bought, or what you already had. Educate me.

[JST]

http://www.race-technology.com/WebPage2/Graphics/ProductPictures/DL1_diagram.gif

There's a group buy that ends tomorrow with very good or great pricing (depending on how many people buy).

The RX-8 stays for another year...but nothing that any of you said moved me in that direction. :rolleyes:

Who wants to buy our Gtech Pro RR?

What a let down. That's not even silly; that's downright prudent, compared to some of the scenarios I was envisioning.

Looks like a pretty cool thing, though.

[Rob]

I agree with JST. That is a let down.

What swayed you to keep the Rx8? The wife? :p

[clyde]

Um, obviously. We all know that you don't listen. :twisted:



Tell me more. I don't know what your bought, or what you already had. Educate me.

What we used this past year: GTech Pro (http://gtechpro.com/rr.html). New, $300. Asking $200. Includes box, manual, software, cables, everything that came in the box (except the stickers if I can't find them). We got it to log autox runs (can also be sued for track sessions) and it helped us a lot this past year. But it is a little limited comapred to the more sophisticated and expensive systems. At the price, I think it's very good. While Jack Mott built an app that will extrapolate mapping info from the g data, we didn't find it terribly useful. G errors compound over time and you have to input corrections in his program. It works, and there is more info you can glean from it, but it's a lot of work and not that much benefit. Records time, longitudinal and lateral g forces and RPMs.

It will also measure 0-60 times, 1/4 times and the like and can be used to do HP/TQ runs. Not absolutely accurate in all situations, but close and consistent enough to be a useful tool to measure relative gains or losses for different mods, shift points, launch techniques, etc.

What I bought: DL-1 (http://www.race-technology.com/WebPage2/Products/DL1/DL1Home.html). Out of the box, it measures lateral and longitudinal g forces and GPS positioning. Processes the three for very fine accuracy with very good mapping display in the PC software. Also has inputs for a number of sensors (wheel speed from 4 wheels, RPM, and up to 8 additional inputs for steering, throttle position, brake position, suspension movement, engine parameters and such).

[clyde]

What swayed you to keep the Rx8? The wife? :p

She was pretty neutral. If anything, very slightly in favor of selling.

[rumatt]

I agree with JST. That is a let down.

Agreed. This teasing crap has to go as well. :rolleyes:


What swayed you to keep the Rx8? The wife? :p

:eeps: What do I win?


[14:06] rumatt: want my prediction?
[14:06] rumatt: nothing anyone says changes your mind
[14:06] rumatt: but then you sit on it for a week
[14:06] rumatt: and realize you're gonna run the rx8 because it's obvious
[14:06] rumatt: problem solved
[14:06] Clyde: lol

[clyde]

:eeps: What do I win?

wasn't a week
wasn't obvious

[bren]

One of his other RX8 ricer friends must of said something that got to him :eeps: