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clyde
11-17-2005, 09:28 AM
This is a question mostly for Pinecone, but others may benefit.

Any suggestions or commentary about the differences between some of the different racing schools of the Skip Barber, Bob Bondurant, Bertil Roos, Jim Russell types?

It's a long story, but I have an opportunity to have someone else pay for a multiday school and I figure that I may as well make the most of it and go to one that will get me an SCCA regional license (or close to it...even if I never use it). Without looking too closely at what's available, the 4 day Grand Prix Road Racing school at Bondurant seems the most appealing.

Thanks!

ff
11-17-2005, 10:46 AM
How cool would that be? You lucky bastard... Early Chirstmas present?

clyde
11-17-2005, 11:31 AM
How cool would that be? You lucky bastard... Early Chirstmas present?
Like I said, it's a long story.

ff
11-17-2005, 01:18 PM
Like I said, it's a long story.

That's OK, I have plenty of time to listen. ;)

lemming
11-17-2005, 01:31 PM
Like I said, it's a long story.

IMHO, the 4 day grand prix driving school is the only school worth going to at Bondurant; but it's totally worth it.

guess you wouldn't consider the porsche driving experience down in Alabama or the corvette school in Pahrump? the Bondurant one is cool because you'll cross train maybe for an hour in the CTS (i'm guessing as it was all ford when i was there), then jump into C5s and then formula cars.

Pinecone
11-18-2005, 06:07 AM
OK, I have attended schools with Barber, Roos, and Daly.

I did the 3 day school with Barber many years ago and recently a 2 day Driving school. They are well organized, well run, lots of good instructors from varied backgrounds. They do a great job of teaching you the basics. They start with shifitng up and down, work on basic exercises, then on to the track. They do an exercise (that I wonder how worthwhile it is) on trail braking, and talk about it a lot. They use rev limits each session to control the speeds. Their 3 day did not include any passing (at all) or starts when I went through. Enough track time so I was BEAT at the end of 3 days. Tend towards larger groups, so a bit less personal attention. Lots of choices on courses depending on what you want and for a progression, high performance, car control, advanced racing, lapping, etc. Lots of tracks to choose from, and this also gives you the ability to do things in the "off" season (winter) by heading to Florida (can combine with family trip, but during the course you will be doing NOTHING but the course, eating and sleeping. I will be taking the car control this winter/spring.

They use their Formula Dodge (Formula Ford with Dodge Neon motor) for the 3 day course. Later courses are in their RT-2000 car, wings, sequential gearbox, hopped up Neon engine, "racing tires' (can you say HARD compound? :) ). One sort of strange thing to coment on, but when I did the 3 day, they ran the cars without the noses on them (to save the body work repairs). It just sort of dashed my idea of running around in a race car, they just looked funny. Ran fine, and inside you can't really tell the difference, but it did bug me at the time. Of course now I truely understand why. :)

The two day driving school is well worth it for the skid pad time. I did a write up over on BF, about it. Basically think Dodge Dakota V8 pickup truck, on a WET skid pad (with some soap based on the bubbles), with Goodrich street tires, on the fronts, Michelin SLICKS on the rear. :) Braking work is nice, the "autocross" work is pretty lame for someone who has been serious autocrossing for a while.

Right now they are selling Holiday gift certificates, with lower prices on several schools. They also did a Moms, Dads, and Grads last spring with some GREAT deals. They also will offer you the chance once at the school to put down $200 to hold a 20% discount on most any of their courses for 1 year. After 1 year, the money stays on account, but no discount (unless you use it to buy a gift certificate).

Roos - I have attended a couple of driving schools and a one day racing school. And I am looking at doing their rookie camp (2 days, 1 instructor per 2 students, 3 cars, work on what you need, lots of time with the instructor on track with you). Best thing they do is to REALLY teach you to use your eyes. On par with, and maybe better than Evolution schools. Unlike Skippy, they do some work in street cars, so you have some time with the instructor in the car (even in the racing schools). Great instructors, less of a cadre, so they tend to use the same ones again and again. Their 2 day street cource is one of the best values and experiences for the money, IMO. Less track choices. They have a 5 day course (if you are limited to 1 course, not a dollar amount) that is their 3 day racing, with their 2 day advanced, and you can come out qualified for your SCCA regional license. They use their own formula cars, which are basically a Formula Continental/FF2000, Ford Pinto 2L, wings, 4 speed H pattern box, NO REV limits (other than a redline, of course), you are limited by your judgement. :) I saw about 125 on the banking (Pocono, where each or three road courses uses on turn of the tri-oval). They will do discounts for multiple people. I did a group trip to their 2 day school a couple of years ago and got a pretty good deal for the group. They have also done reduced price gift certificates in theh past. They also do one week+ that is their 2 day highway school followed by the 5 day full comp course, that would give the other drivers in the family a course (and it really wouldn't hurt to do all 7 days, except to yrou wallet and your body).

Daly - I did the 3 day competition course, Camille did their 2 day GT performance course. A bit expensive compared to the others. My class was 2 students, one instructor, with an extra staff member joining in for start practice. I feel that this course is more suited to the person with some serious road course experience, even thought he first day was on an oval working on a basic line and shifting, skid car, and emergency lane change. The cars are FF2000s with Stack data systems. Most of the debriefing of sessions is based on the data, with some observation on track. They didn't catch a one thing I was doing, which I figured out later (wide exit from one turn, screwing up the next two). And one problem I was having, they didn't seem to offer much real help in fixing. It does have the advantage of being in Vegas.

The two day was basically the same first day, except the basic line and shifting work was done in Z3s rather than formula cars. Second day was track work in teh Z3s. She felt there was little to no feedback, and since they were on the track one of the same days we were, she ended up with one 40 minute session. Just going around and around. She liked the track time, but came out if it not knowing if she was doing good, or so bad they didn't bother. I think they had 1 instructor for 4 students in her class.

I have heard good and bad things about the other major schools. Only thing I will comment on is that the Russell school apparantly still teachs straight line braking only.

All the schools supply basic equipment. When I did Barber, you had to supply gloves and shoes, they supplied suits (single layer) and helmets. I had my own equipment for the other schools. But I think you have a full face SA00 helmet, so you can use your own. They do not require Nomex shoes, but Simpson low tops are so cheap ther eis no reason not to buy a pair.

ANything esle??? I may think of some things today and will add themlater. I am off to Summit to instruct at a FATT.

Elwood
11-18-2005, 05:47 PM
OK, I have attended schools with Barber, Roos, and Daly.

I did the 3 day school with Barber many years ago and recently a 2 day Driving school. They are well organized, well run, lots of good instructors from varied backgrounds. They do a great job of teaching you the basics. They start with shifitng up and down, work on basic exercises, then on to the track. They do an exercise (that I wonder how worthwhile it is) on trail braking, and talk about it a lot. They use rev limits each session to control the speeds. Their 3 day did not include any passing (at all) or starts when I went through. Enough track time so I was BEAT at the end of 3 days. Tend towards larger groups, so a bit less personal attention. Lots of choices on courses depending on what you want and for a progression, high performance, car control, advanced racing, lapping, etc. Lots of tracks to choose from, and this also gives you the ability to do things in the "off" season (winter) by heading to Florida (can combine with family trip, but during the course you will be doing NOTHING but the course, eating and sleeping. I will be taking the car control this winter/spring.

They use their Formula Dodge (Formula Ford with Dodge Neon motor) for the 3 day course. Later courses are in their RT-2000 car, wings, sequential gearbox, hopped up Neon engine, "racing tires' (can you say HARD compound? :) ). One sort of strange thing to coment on, but when I did the 3 day, they ran the cars without the noses on them (to save the body work repairs). It just sort of dashed my idea of running around in a race car, they just looked funny. Ran fine, and inside you can't really tell the difference, but it did bug me at the time. Of course now I truely understand why. :)


Update on the Skippy 3-day:

-They're starting to use their pace car neons for a brief 1 on 1 session.

-Last day includes 3 "Starts". Your whole group lined up 2 abreast (6 cars for me). This is to meet their SCCA requirements.

-Also 2 ~30minute lapping sessions. Wave-by not required on straight but required elsewhere.

And we ran with noses' on. :P

Yes, do NOT plan anything else for the day. All you will do those days is Race-Eat-Sleep.

Pinecone
11-19-2005, 10:31 AM
Cool, good info.

clyde
11-19-2005, 05:06 PM
thanks guys!