Electrical short in 330i. Update

[rumatt]

For those who haven't heard, my 330i had the service engine light and "EML" light come on. After that it wouldn't start, so it was towed to the dealer.

Here's the latest update:

First day they looked at it, they said every time they started it, it would blow a fuse.

After blowing a number of fuses, they replaced the fuse with a breaker, to help the testing. (I guess that makes sense :scratch: )

They pulled out and inspected all the wires from the fuse box, over and through the ECU box, and to the other circuit breaker, and they all looked OK.

The last time they started the car it started fine, and it's been running for "several hours today" :speechle: so far with no problems.

So they've replaced nothing, and it's working fine now. I asked him for a list of exactly which fuses were blowing, and exactly what they've done. He's going to find that out, talk to the technition about suggestions, and call me back.

Dammit. Intermittent problem. Worst case scenario. :irate:

[rumatt]

They officially can't reproduce the problem by jiggling wires.

They offered to

a) Give me back the car with the understanding that it may happen again, or

b) Keep the car through next week and let their guys keep driving it around to see if they can reproduce it.

Ummmmmmmmm. I picked a).

[Plaz]

Ummmmmmmmm. I picked a).

:lol:

Good call.

[FC]

:lol:

Good call.

Werd.

[SARAFIL]

Werd.

Option B means that the shop foreman gets a new demo for a week. (or, if you drive a lowly car like a 3-series with vinyl and no moonroof, one of the new techs gets a demo for the week while the shop foreman looks for a nicer car to drive... :DD: )

This is no lie... we once had a situation where the police showed up at a customer's house at 3am in the morning to ask him if his 745 had been stolen. The police had pulled over a man in his late-20s that spoke with a Russian accent and looked rather scrubby driving the car, and he didn't look anything like the British man that the registration belonged to. Expecting to hear it in the morning (and expecting to lose his job), the tech showed up at work the next morning scared beyond belief. Sure, he had permission to test drive the car, but no one expected that to include 3am test drives that resulted in being pulled over and ending up in trouble with the authorities.

In case you're wondering how the story ends, the tech was spared when the customer called up and specifically asked that we not give the tech a hard time over the whole ordeal. He said that he found some humor in it and he was just happy that his car was working again.

[rumatt]

Yeah, they guy actually said that they would test it, possibly with the service manager taking the car home nights.



Um..... No.

But I can see how some customers would rather keep a reliable loaner and not get back their car until it's fixed 100%. And he gave me a choice, so that's fine with me. :dunno:

[rumatt]

It's the "fuel pump relay fuse" that kept blowing. :dunno:

[Plaz]

It's the "fuel pump relay fuse" that kept blowing. :dunno:

Yeah, that sounds like it would put a crimp in your "go" plans.

[kognito]

Yeah, they guy actually said that they would test it, possibly with the service manager taking the car home nights.



Um..... No.

But I can see how some customers would rather keep a reliable loaner and not get back their car until it's fixed 100%. And he gave me a choice, so that's fine with me. :dunno:

I used to be a service writer, then service manager for a Dodge dealership. Once I became manager, I only once drove home a customer's car. It was a loaded Ramcharger that was converted to an EMT rescue vehicle. (I wanted to play with the lights and sirens :DD: )

between the choice of driving a new demo vehicle, or a customer's car that may or may not breakdown, what would you choose??

You made the right call, I drove many customer's cars while I was a service writer, and I drove everyone of them like I stole it!!

[rumatt]

:mad:

[lip277]

:mad:

Again?

[rumatt]

Again?

After about 30 minutes of driving. :mad:

[rumatt]

After having my car for four full days, the official writeup that they submitted for the work performed consisted of the following sentence: "Replaced fuse. Unable to replicate fault." Nothing more. And I had asked the SA to write down as much as possible to get everything on the record and help future trouble shooting. :ack:

Not entirely related to the above: I used to think car salesmen lie more than any other occupation. I'm learning that SA's have them beat. :rolleyes:

[SARAFIL]

After having my car for four full days, the official writeup that they submitted for the work performed consisted of the following sentence: "Replaced fuse. Unable to replicate fault." Nothing more. And I had asked the SA to write down as much as possible to get everything on the record and help future trouble shooting. :ack:

Not entirely related to the above: I used to think car salesmen lie more than any other occupation. I'm learning that SA's have them beat. :rolleyes:

The problem is that when the service advisors write a long story, the warranty coders and the service manager complain since that story needs to be simplified when the claim is sent to BMWNA. Therefore, the service advisors have learned to write as little as possible to get the point across and not go on and on.

[clyde]

Sarafil,

In a situation like this, what do you think the odds are that someone could get BMWNA to "assist" the afflicted owner into a new E90 330i? :dunno: ;)

[rumatt]

As long as Sarafill's here, can you let me know what you think of the following?

1) I asked the SA why there wasn't more on the report. He said, "It's all written on the back of the work order, just not entered into the computer. Would have been way too much typing.". I told him I wanted to know exactly what they did, so that it can help with future trouble shooting. He said he would look for it. After a day, he's still looking for that paperwork.

2) There is no record of the visit in the BMW NA system. I told him I want it on the record so it is clear the vehicle is now on its second visit for the same problem. He claimed that since they didn't replace a part, they couldn't claim warranty money, so they had to eat the cost themselves. I told him I didn't give a crap about warranty money, and that I wanted it on the record, period. He said he'd talk to the warranty person and see what he could do.

Am I taking the right approach here? What steps should I take so that if it truly is a lemon, I will have the highest chance of BMW being willing to "help" me into a new car? And my assumption is not to even discuss this until visit number 4 or 5 to the dealer for the same problem.

[SARAFIL]

Sarafil,

In a situation like this, what do you think the odds are that someone could get BMWNA to "assist" the afflicted owner into a new E90 330i? :dunno: ;)

I've seen our dealer do a "trade assist" (what BMWNA calls a deal where they contribute cash to the dealer to trade you into a newer car) for much less of a problem than the series of problems described in this post.

This is one reason why I always say that it is a big benefit to have a good relationship with your servicing dealer, and to buy and service at the same dealer. When you want to do something like this, it always comes in handy to have someone "on your side". They'll be much less likely to help you with a trade assist if you didn't buy from them, and especially less if you don't treat them well. The dealer doesn't have to do this for you... they do it to keep you happy. It's almost a reward you get for being a good customer if things go wrong.

If you really wanted a new car, prepare a case justifying your request with evidence from your past service visits that show your car has some problem that makes you want a new car. Start with the service manager at your dealer and see what he says-- he's the one with the authority to get the ball rolling.

[rumatt]

Thanks sarafil. Unfortunately, I bought from dealer A, had it serviced a few times at dealer B, and no it's being serviced at Dealer C, for the first time.

How much "help" have you seen? Are you talking original purchase price, like in a real lemon case? Or just a couple hundred bucks on top of normal trade value? Somewhere in between? The car is 26 months old. MSRP was $38K, I paid $32K (ED) and the blue book for private sale now is about $26K.

I was going to give them 3 or 4 shots to fix it before approaching them. Then I was gonna ask the service manager if BMW NA could help me out.

[SARAFIL]

Thanks sarafil. Unfortunately, I bought from dealer A, had it serviced a few times at dealer B, and no it's being serviced at Dealer C, for the first time.

How much "help" have you seen? Are you talking original purchase price, like in a real lemon case? Or just a couple hundred bucks on top of normal trade value? Somewhere in between? The car is 26 months old. MSRP was $38K, I paid $32K (ED) and the blue book for private sale now is about $26K.

I was going to give them 3 or 4 shots to fix it before approaching them. Then I was gonna ask the service manager if BMW NA could help me out.

Want to talk about an extreme? We had a client buy an X5 4.8, drove it for 6 months and had some problems with the car. He ended up buying a Lexus from our Lexus dealership, and BMW contributed over $20,000 towards the buyback of the X5. In other cases where it's a trade from one car to another equal car ('05 530i to '05 530i, for example), the contribution might just be a few hundred or a few thousand (the difference between invoice on the new car, and invoice - discount for mileage on the old car).

[SARAFIL]

Thanks sarafil. Unfortunately, I bought from dealer A, had it serviced a few times at dealer B, and no it's being serviced at Dealer C, for the first time.

How much "help" have you seen? Are you talking original purchase price, like in a real lemon case? Or just a couple hundred bucks on top of normal trade value? Somewhere in between? The car is 26 months old. MSRP was $38K, I paid $32K (ED) and the blue book for private sale now is about $26K.

I was going to give them 3 or 4 shots to fix it before approaching them. Then I was gonna ask the service manager if BMW NA could help me out.

They'll work you a great deal to put you into another BMW. It'll be much more difficult to get them to just buy the car back.

[rumatt]

They'll work you a great deal to put you into another BMW. It'll be much more difficult to get them to just buy the car back.

Yeah, I meant to get into a 330 E90. The E90 I want is the 1K more than the MSRP of my E46. What deal would you ask for?

I was thinking of saying, I'll give you my car + $X for the new E90. I just don't know what $X is. :) (if it's less than $5K, I'd consider it seriously).

[SARAFIL]

Yeah, I meant to get into a 330 E90. The E90 I want is the 1K more than the MSRP of my E46. What deal would you ask for?

I was thinking of saying, I'll give you my car + $X for the new E90. I just don't know what $X is. :) (if it's less than $5K, I'd consider it seriously).

Problem is, you need to make a good case for why they should help you out. Quite honestly, your chances of getting them to help decrease daily. You've had your car for a long time now... usually, trade assist customer start talking about getting a replacement car much sooner (during the first few months, almost always within the first year). If you've gone this far, you'll need a strong case to get them to step up and put you in another car.

What exactly is the history of problems you've had with the car?

[rumatt]

What exactly is the history of problems you've had with the car?

That's the thing. Most if this is speculative on the idea that I have a hard to diagnose short that they won't get right this time either. If they fix the problem on this visit, I don't expect anything. But here are the issues:

Breakdown 1: Climate control software bug. Dead battery
Breakdown 2: Bad ignition coils.
Breakdown 3: EML light, blown fuse that can't be fixed due to repeated shorting. Dealer kept car 4 days
Breakdown 4: Same as #3, occured a few hours after getting it back.

It's still in the shop for problem #4, and today is the 10th day it's been out of commission (combined #3 and 4 back to back).

Assuming there's a #5 for the same problem (making 3 for the same issue), am I close to a convincing case? Maybe 4 or 5 for the same issue?

[dan]

i'd say that sounds like a typical E46 owner's list of faults. :dunno:

no case.

[rumatt]

i'd say that sounds like a typical E46 owner's list of faults. :dunno:

no case.

I wasn't really counting the first two. They're just icing on the cake.

I'm assuming that this recent issue is not solvable. Assume some number of repeat visits. 3? 4? 5? 6? How many make a case?

[dan]

hmm, that's true...30 days out of commission should do it, but this is BMWNA we're talking about

[rumatt]

Update: as of 5:00pm they were waiting for a reply to the email they sent to teh BMW NA tech help people.

Aparently the interface to ask technical questions is email, and a reply isn't guaranteed for up to 90 mins. This is for each question they ask, so if it's a sequence of simple, one line questions it could take all day . Sigh.

(this was confirmed indepently with BMW NA folks, so it's not just a line from the dealer).

[rumatt]

On my way to pickup the car now. He claims they found a short in an electrical wiring harness in the engine.

I had my SA so scared that I wanted details of what was fixed that he has camera phone pictures of the defective part ready for me. :lol:

[clyde]

I had my SA so scared that I wanted details of what was fixed that he has camera phone pictures of the defective part ready for me. :lol:

:thumbup:

[rumatt]

Looks like it may be fixed! The irony is that the problem was visible just by looking in the engine compartment! Doh!

The wiring clump that runs under the windshield wiper fluid container was wedged between the container and the metal bracket. The metal bracket was cutting into the wire. They "repaired" the wire :speechle: and I'm good to go.

I asked why they didn't "replace" it, and he said it's one wiring harness that goes through the whole system.

I'm ordering my Topeka wheels from Jack. W00T!

Just to be safe, I think I will bring some extra fuses. :speechle:

[Plaz]

the problem was visible just by looking in the engine compartment! Doh!

It's not the heat, it's the stupidity.

[rumatt]

Well, they fixed the short... but they knocked my headlight loose so it wobbles and aims up into oncoming cars faces, and they put the front bumper up onto a curb, so it's scratched to hell on the underside.

What would you ask them to do about the bumper? I don't think I want these idiots painting my car. :rolleyes:

[bren]

Damn, scared me when I saw this thread bumped.

Where are the bumper scratches? Underneath or plainly visible? If it's just the typical under the bumper curb scratches I'd forget about it (after explaining to them how unacceptable that is.)

[rumatt]

Where are the bumper scratches? Underneath or plainly visible? If it's just the typical under the bumper curb scratches I'd forget about it (after explaining to them how unacceptable that is.)

Not visible when standing up. Only if you bend over. 28 months I've had this car and not hit a single curb with the front bumper. They have it one week and mangle it. It's just incredibly frustrating.

I have a fog light cover that needs to be painted. Maybe I can convince them to paint that instead? :eeps:

[rumatt]

Called the service manager. He said he wants to see the car.

He said, "My understanding is that the car has been in some kind of a front end collision." When the foreman saw my car he noticed the camber pins being pushed out and asked if it was in an accident, so that's where that's coming from.

This could get ugly.

[bren]

Called the service manager. He said he wants to see the car.

He said, "My understanding is that the car has been in some kind of a front end collision." When the foreman saw my car he noticed the camber pins being pushed out and asked if it was in an accident, so that's where that's coming from.

This could get ugly.
Someone actually noticed the missing pins? Wow.

If you have to bend down and look under the bumper to see the paint damage there is no way it's worth fixing.

[rumatt]

Someone actually noticed the missing pins? Wow.


I'm guessing the tech's look for signs of accidents in general, and that's probably a pretty obvious one.


If you have to bend down and look under the bumper to see the paint damage there is no way it's worth fixing.
The dumbass punks put my car up on a curb. I'm making them do SOMETHING, or they get flamed on the survey. I don't care if I have to sell the car and never buy a BMW again because I have nowhere to get it serviced. :irate: I may seriously ask them to paint the fog light cover instead.

[Plaz]

I don't care if I have to sell the car and never buy a BMW again because I have nowhere to get it serviced.

There's always Greenwich or Manhattan. :dunno:

[bren]

I'm guessing the tech's look for signs of accidents in general, and that's probably a pretty obvious one.That, or you thought the pin was holding the strut in when you changed them. It's not like that pin actually does anything.


The dumbass punks put my car up on a curb. I'm making them do SOMETHING, or they get flamed on the survey. I don't care if I have to sell the car and never buy a BMW again because I have nowhere to get it serviced. :irate: I may seriously ask them to paint the fog light cover instead.
Oh, I'm not saying I wouldn't raise a stink but I wouldn't get the bumper painted.

[rumatt]

The service manager at Westchester BMW took a look at my car today and said "We gotta make it right".

He agreed to send the whole bumper away to get sanded and repainted if I wanted it. He also offered to paint the fog light cover with it. I said I was concerned that a repaint is never as good as the original. He claimed the guy does nothing but BMW painting, and it would resist chippnig as good as the existing one, but of course it's my decision.

Now the question is what to have them do. I could just ask him to touch up the scrapes (but they're deep enough that they'd still be there, although they're mostly not visible) and paint the fog cover and call it a day.

[JST]

The service manager at Westchester BMW took a look at my car today and said "We gotta make it right".

He agreed to send the whole bumper away to get sanded and repainted if I wanted it. He also offered to paint the fog light cover with it. I said I was concerned that a repaint is never as good as the original. He claimed the guy does nothing but BMW painting, and it would resist chippnig as good as the existing one, but of course it's my decision.

Now the question is what to have them do. I could just ask him to touch up the scrapes (but they're deep enough that they'd still be there, although they're mostly not visible) and paint the fog cover and call it a day.

I'd do the touch ups; a respray of any significant body panel is going to lead a potential purchaser to wonder what happened, and may cause them to suspect something worse than actually occurred.

[dan]

so was the car in an accident, or what?

[rumatt]

so was the car in an accident, or what?

Playing the role of a simulated buyer?

Beween the camber pins being popped and the repainted bumper, I may as well have a salvage title. :lol:

[dan]

i was just curious as to what happened to your car while they had it :dunno:

[rumatt]

Other than this (http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showpost.php?p=75238&postcount=32) I don't know.