A methodical approach to AutoX improvement?

[Arockalypse]

I did my second AutoX this past weekend with the njbmwcca group again.

I did better this time than I did at my first event 2 weeks ago. But unlike my first event, I did not improve much over the course of the day. In fact, I pretty much nailed the same time on every run (give or take a tenth).

This was frustrating.

I know there is plenty of room for improvement, I just really have no idea how to go about getting the most out of these sessions so that my improvement is incremental, measurable, and based on developing good basic habits. I've run with instructors numerous times and have had guys who are really good drive my car with me riding shotgun. They all offer plenty of terrific advice. So plentiful that my brain is mush by the end of the day. It seems a daunting task to try and focus on all the elements I need to during the course of a run.

So does anyone have any thoughts or ideas on a way to approach focusing on improving my skills in a more structured and methodical manner?

Or better yet, how about a magic pill? ;)

[Nick M3]

Look ahead.
Look ahead again.
Look ahead some more.

[bren]

Walk the course until they drag you off of it. Then sit in your car and run it full speed in your head. If you have to hesitate in trying to remember a section sneak back out on the course and walk it some more.

[clyde]

If your times were very similar on all runs, you were probably making different mistakes in different places and they all just worked out just so. One thing to keep in mind is that some days you will go out to an event and screw up one section or turn on the first run or two. Then on a subsequent run, you'll fix that mistake and get through that part with more speed...only to blow the next section because you came into it faster than you expected. Because of this, relying solely on run times to track your progress leaves you with less than the complete picture.

Since there's so much going on, it can be easier to try to focus on just one or two elements. Immediately after a run, stay in your car and replay what you just did a couple times. Try to identify the biggest mistake you made and form a solution on how to fix it. Then, drive the course in your head a few more times with the fix. As you do a few more events, you should be able to start thinking about two or three mistakes at a time and fix them all at once. Just be aware that every time you fix something, you have to think about entering the following section as well, lest you come in faster than you expect.

All the while, though, you want to be working on the basics...looking ahead, being smooth, etc.

As for tracking your progress, mount a video camera and record your runs. Review the tape after you get home (doing it between runs will only add to the info overload problem). Look for the things that you're doing right and what you're doing wrong. You will probably find some of each that you weren't even aware of.

And just keep plugging along.

[ff]

Buy these two books:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0760305188.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0760305188/qid=1123012713/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-4230152-7595966?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0760315108.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0760315108/qid=1123012713/sr=8-3/ref=pd_bbs_3/104-4230152-7595966?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Actually, there are 4 books in the series, and I'm sure all equally good. They're written in simple, to-the-point terms, and the things that Ross teaches are very simple to practice even in everyday driving.

[JST]

Walk the course until they drag you off of it. Then sit in your car and run it full speed in your head. If you have to hesitate in trying to remember a section sneak back out on the course and walk it some more.

Wait until the cars stop running to do that last part.


While I've gotten better over the years at autocrossing, there are lots of folks who got a lot better than me a lot faster than I did. I frequently feel like I am not really "methodical" in improving--most of my improvement seems to come from brute force repetition.

Having issued that disclaimer, when you first start autocrossing, you naturally view the course as a series of obstacles that must be navigated: go through THIS gate, then THAT gate, then THIS gate. You focus heavily on getting through each gate, which inevitably means you are constantly reacting, rather than looking ahead, plotting a line and trying to drive it. The first few autocrosses always seem fast and sort of out of control, because you can't believe anyone can get out there and react that fast.

That's true. No one can. If you are reacting, you are behind the car and you will be slow.

After some experience walking courses (and doing it like bren suggests) and driving courses, you start to see any new course not as a series of gates, but rather as a sinuous line that happens to have cones set up around it. Figuring out where that line is can be difficult--I'm still not particularly good at it. Things that you can use to help: a) the novice walk through, which is frequently done by an experienced competitor who has a lot to teach even intermediate level drivers about selecting lines and braking points, and b) other cars. I *always* try and work before I drive, if possible, and spend some time watching other people on the course (especially good people). Pay attention to the lines they take. Note where fast drivers are taking an unexpectedly wide line, or braking early or late, or whatever, and conciously try and mimic them.

As for measuring your progress, pick a couple of autocross regulars who have consistent times, and compare your times to theirs. It doesn't matter if they are 12 seconds per run faster than you are--if they are consistent drivers running the same basic car setup every event, you can measure your improvement event over event as against them. Pick a few, though, so anomolous results don't mess you up.

Also, look ahead.

[clyde]

I'd go with this one before those two:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0760308349.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0760308349/qid=1123013387/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_sbs_1/002-2313490-6194462?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

The mental aspect is so much more important than the theory. But, if you don't have an understanding of the theory, the two books ff listed are a good start. I'd also higly recommend "Going Faster!" by Carl Lopez and "Drive to Win" by Carroll Smith. There are other decent ones out there, too.

[clyde]

Pick a few, though, so anomolous results don't mess you up.

I think I had 57 people in my tracking spreadsheet when I stopped maintaining it.

[JST]

Pick a few, though, so anomolous results don't mess you up.

I think I had 57 people in my tracking spreadsheet when I stopped maintaining it.

You determined that a simple checklist worked better?

http://www.teamwtf.org/gallery/albums/album99/checklist_v10.jpg

[ff]

I'd go with this one before those two:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0760308349.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0760308349/qid=1123013387/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_sbs_1/002-2313490-6194462?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


I'll put that on my list to buy as well.

[rumatt]

"Learn to look ahead" is without a doubt the best advice. If you remove this from your top priority, you won't improve nearly as fast, no matter how many other things you try.

However, hearing "look ahead" a million times was frustrating because I didn't know how. It's not something you just "do". You need to learn how to do it properly, and it's not easy. In your first 3 or 4 autocrosses, you have SO many things to worry about and are completely overwhelmed. If you simply look ahead 10 gates from where you are, and concentrate on nothing but that, you'll start hitting every cone in sight. That's what happened to me anyway. I kept hitting cones so I stopped looking ahead and I thought I was better off.. Of course, it also put me in a rut where I didn't improve at all for quite some time.

So my advice:

1) Spend 95% of your energy forcing yourself to learn how to look ahead. Come to terms with the idea that it will happen slowly, but don't quit. Find the fastest person you know and ask if you can walk the course with them and ask them to point out and where they are looking at each part in the course. If you can't look as far ahead as they are, don't get frustrated and give up, just keep trying. Maybe look 2/3 of the way to where they are. You will likely be slower at first, and hit cones for several events, but keep at it. It's worth it

2) If possible, go on at least one ridealong every event. I learned more from this than any instructor sitting in my car telling me what I should have done.

3) Like others have said, make a spreadsheet where you track yourself against all the fastest people (compute your time as a ratio with theirs, and see how it changes over time). This is the only real way to track progress. On any one day, any one person can have a good or bad day, so don't just look at whether you won your class, etc.

4) Attend autocrosses outside of the NJ BMWCCA ones. The courses are just too small :twisted: Looking ahead is actually easier on open courses because the field of view is more in front of you.

[clyde]

Looking ahead is actually easier on open courses because the field of view is more in front of you.

This reminds me...listen to people that know what they're talking about. ignore those that don't. If you're lucky, you will be able to tell them apart.

[rumatt]

Looking ahead is actually easier on open courses because the field of view is more in front of you.

This reminds me...listen to people that know what they're talking about. ignore those that don't. If you're lucky, you will be able to tell them apart.

Definitely good advice.

I just wish you hadn't quoted me when you said it :lol: :eeps:

[The HACK]

Look ahead is a misnomer. It's opening up your field of vision. You need to be able to see what's far, far ahead as well as what's happening near you. So as you are braking into a corner, you need to see where the track-out cones are and also KNOW or be able to see where the apex is as well. I equate it to the reverse of tunnel vision.

For a while I got "look ahead" beaten into me, but my skills weren't improving, until I figured out how to keep my vision relaxed and not focus on anything in particular, but able to take into my brain what is happening in front of me and very, very far ahead of me. That allow you to build "the line" through the course, and once you have the line down, it's a matter of figuring out the optimum braking for each turn to go as fast as you possibly can, if you have already got all the fundamentals (smooth hands, smooth feet) down.

[Pinecone]

I disagree, at time syou need to be focused on a specific palace ahead, in order to get there. But you are right in that even so, you have to be seeing more.

As for teaching yourself to look ahead, it IS hard. Start by looking at the next gate or two gates ahead of where you actually are. Talk to yourself, tell yourself what will be coming up further along in the course.

Look ahead is only part of it, you have to THINK ahead also. And some of that is deciding which gates are really not important, so you can pretty much ignore them, and typically there are a lot more of these than you think.

ABSOLUTELY it is more the mental aspects versus the phycial. But physical skills have their place, just ask Bren, or maybe Nick. :) You got to work on both.

The easy way is to go do a Evolution Phase 1 and Phase 2 course. In two days they will teach you what will takes you a LONG time to learn on your own.

As for the books, Going Faster and the first 3 Speed Secrets books were worth about 1.5 seconds at Summit Point in the Spec Racer just by reading them. And that didn't include really trying to put most of it in practice. One thing at a time.

BTW SS4 is NOT for the driver, but for those trying to help the driver get better, like a coach, team member, or even family member.

[clyde]

Look ahead is a misnomer. It's opening up your field of vision. You need to be able to see what's far, far ahead as well as what's happening near you. So as you are braking into a corner, you need to see where the track-out cones are and also KNOW or be able to see where the apex is as well. I equate it to the reverse of tunnel vision.

No...in autocrossing it is about looking ahead. By the time it's "near you" you're already way too late. In an autocross, if you're looking at the corner's exit as you enter it, 85 times out of 100, you aren't looking far enough ahead.

http://teamwtf.org/gallery/albums/album168/NEDiv05_1_193.sized.jpg[/url][/code]

[rumatt]

http://teamwtf.org/gallery/albums/album168/NEDiv05_1_193.sized.jpg[/url][/code]

For the record, that guy finished 3 seconds behind the class winner. :speechle:

[Arockalypse]

Thanks everyone.

This is all fantastic advice and exactly the type of pointers that I needed to hear at this stage.

You know, I had thought that I was doing the "look ahead" thing pretty well. I wasn't hitting cones or going off course or getting lost at all, but now I see that there is much more to looking ahead and course visualization than just not fucking up the gates.

And I actually have already started a spreadsheet tracking my times against the other drivers.

Here's what I have so far:

July 10
Hot Chick|2005 Mini Cooper S|63.309
Me|2005 Saab 9-2x|63.966

July 31
Me|2005 Saab 9-2x|49.265
Hot Chick|2005 Mini Cooper S|50.394

See, already I'm improving AND regaining some of my lost dudehood to boot. I feel I might now be able to show my face again down at ye olde tyme man's club. :bigpimp:

Just don't ask me about the Ford Focus. :eeps:

[rumatt]

July 10
Hot Chick|2005 Mini Cooper S|63.309
Me|2005 Saab 9-2x|63.966

July 31
Me|2005 Saab 9-2x|49.265
Hot Chick|2005 Mini Cooper S|50.394

:lol:

Remember, comparing about the folks at the bottom of the list is least useful because they likely vary the most from event to event.

[Elwood]

July 10
Hot Chick|2005 Mini Cooper S|63.309
Me|2005 Saab 9-2x|63.966

July 31
Me|2005 Saab 9-2x|49.265
Hot Chick|2005 Mini Cooper S|50.394

:lol:

Remember, comparing about the folks at the bottom of the list is least useful because they likely vary the most from event to event.

Yar and she's moving to San Diego in 6 weeks, so pick a new reference :eeps:

[Andy]

There are two major factors to autocross…. fundamentals and aggression. One without the other will not make you fast, it takes both. Looking ahead, taking the right line, being smooth, etc… those are all fundamentals and relatively easy to understand and learn... well, with time of course. Aggression is another beast all itself.

Most people who are starting out are not nearly as aggressive as they should be. When they try to pick up the aggression level, they don’t understand how and where to do it and end up doing it in all the wrong places.

I’m constantly fine tuning my aggression level. It takes controlled aggression… being overly aggressive will slow you down just as much as not being aggressive enough… if not more. To fine tune my aggression, I spend time after each run and I go through each turn, straight, wiggle, transition, gate, etc. through my mind. I think to myself, was I at the limit of adhesion in that section? Was I under driving? Overdriving? Did I have traction to spare (no matter how little)? Or was I using up every last bit of traction… and then some? If I find any areas on course where I was not using every last bit of traction, I will dial it up a notch in that section. Or if I find a section where I was losing traction or sliding a little more then I should, I make sure I dial it down. The key is to make small, fine tuned adjustments.

There is soooo much to think about during your runs, the fundamentals need to be second nature so you can remember how much to dial up or down in each section of the course. That’s why there are so many people out there that say… seat time, seat time, seat time. The more seat time you get, the more the fundamentals become second nature and the more you will learn how to fine tune your aggression level.

The quick and easy way to get your aggression level up is to pick out all the fast sections on course. Pick up your aggression level in those areas only… leave the slow sections alone!! Most people are going too slow in the fast sections and too fast in the slow sections.

Keep your foot to the floor and scare yourself silly!! :thumbup:

[Sharp11]

All good advice, I'd add:

Squat down and close one eye in certain places while walking the course - lack of depth perception will mimic (to a certain degree) the effect of the dreaded "sea of cones".

Autocrossing is a lot like jazz improvisation (without the art), it's all about picking your line and driving ahead of where you actually are - the great jazz player never reacts to a set of chord changes, he plays through them, connecting his phrases and lines in a predetermined manner, all in a split second, many times a second, always thinking way ahead of where he is.

Ed

[Arockalypse]

:lol:
Remember, comparing about the folks at the bottom of the list is least useful because they likely vary the most from event to event.

Yes, but if you recall (and I'm SURE you do) she is a 6 year veteran! ;)

Most people are going too slow in the fast sections and too fast in the slow sections.

Yes! That is precisely what I do. Your fundamentals + agression approach makes complete sense to me. Thanks.

[JST]

:lol:
Remember, comparing about the folks at the bottom of the list is least useful because they likely vary the most from event to event.

Yes, but if you recall (and I'm SURE you do) she is a 6 year veteran! ;)

Most people are going too slow in the fast sections and too fast in the slow sections.

Yes! That is precisely what I do. Your fundamentals + agression approach makes complete sense to me. Thanks.

I won't even tell you how many years ago my first autocross was. :eeps:

Years doing it matter not--seriousness and number of events matter much more.

[John V]

Years doing it matter not--seriousness and number of events matter much more.

This statement is SO true. I did my first autocross in 1997 and did at least three or four a year up until 2002 when I really got serious about improving.

And I'm still not as good as Andy who has like two full years under his belt :oops:

[Andy]

Years doing it matter not--seriousness and number of events matter much more.

This statement is SO true. I did my first autocross in 1997 and did at least three or four a year up until 2002 when I really got serious about improving.

And I'm still not as good as Andy who has like two full years under his belt :oops:
I also could not agree with that statement even more!! If you put complete and utter focus, determination and passion into the sport… you’ll begin seeing results.

I have seen a lot of focus, determination and passion this year in John V., Clyde and rumatt. I think their results, just from this year alone, speak for themselves!!

September 14th will mark my two year anniversary in this sport. I was hooked after my 1st event. I became intensely motivated after my 3rd. But that motivation doesn’t even compare to the motivation, passion and focus that ignited inside of me after missing out on a trophy at nationals last year by less then a 10th of a second.

Set your goals high and stay motivated!! :thumbup:

[Elwood]

Set your goals high and stay motivated!! :thumbup:

Bah! It's _only_ autox!


:P ;)

[Pinecone]

If you read the Speed Secrets books, Ross talks a LOT aobut being able to drive in the unconscious with awareness. If you are having to THINK about what you are doing with the car, you cannot be fast, as your conscious mind is too slow.

As for looking ahead, as soon as you commit to this part of the course, you should be looking at least the next, and thinking about the one after that or even the one after that. And by section, it may be a single gate, or a series of gates.

Inner Speed Secrets has section on doing runs expanding your awareness. Doing a run concentrating on the sounds. Doing a run concentrating on the feel of the car and tires. Doing a run concentrating on the visual. And doing a run traction sensing. Then you will get faster as you expand your awareness.

[Arockalypse]

4) Attend autocrosses outside of the NJ BMWCCA ones.

Ever been to the NNJ-PCA one at the Giant's Stadium parking lot? Worth checking out? They have an event this weekend.

[rumatt]

Ever been to the NNJ-PCA one at the Giant's Stadium parking lot? Worth checking out? They have an event this weekend.

Yeah, I've been there. I'd definitely recommend going. The crowd is not as friendly, and they don't allow ridealongs. But the event is well run, the lot is reasonable, and the courses are good. Show up plenty early to get registered. Their events can be pretty full.

I'm told the surface is hard on tires, but it's mostly people with R-comps who complain. I'll probably be there this weekend running street tires.

[Elwood]

I'll probably be there this weekend running street tires.

WHY!!?

There's a slim possibility I'll be there too.

[rumatt]

WHY!!?

There's a slim possibility I'll be there too.

I'm also told this lot eats r-comps. And they're so damn expensive....

I need to decide my autox plans for the rest of this year. I may try to burn these tires off within the next 5 weeks and have a new set for mid september. :speechle: