PDA

View Full Version : What do you guys think of this deal?


TD
07-30-2005, 03:54 PM
My wife and I just got back from diving the Volvo S60 R. Volvo is throwing a lot of money at the leftover 2005s and I'm feeling pretty tempted.

This would be to replace our Saab (which I've said I will not own outside of warranty) not my M3 and would play the large, family car role, not the true sport sedan role.

At Don Beyer Volvo in Falls Church, they immediately put forth a no-haggle price of invoice less the $4500 in trunk money - which came to ~$35K on a car that stickered for just under $42K. Their current incentivized lease terms take an additional $4K off of the cap cost.

I was quoted a price of $530/mo for 36 mos with 15K miles/yr with total cash due at signing of ~$950 (for the typical mandatory items). Again, this is on a car with a sticker of $41,920.

The car is titanium grey with the blue/black leather, premium package (basically the moonroof plus an upgraded stereo with 6-disk in-dash CD changer), satellite radio prep and heated seats. 6-spd manual, of course.

So, I'm sitting here getting dizzy from my mental waffling.

It's a great price on an excellent (albeit imperfect) car.

http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i22/2225_15mg.jpg

JetBlack330i
07-30-2005, 04:07 PM
I've never driven one, but every magazine comparo I've seen puts the S60 in the bottom half.
If you throw in a $K or 2, you could get an Acura TL. A lot more car for the money, IMHO.

TD
07-30-2005, 04:10 PM
I've never driven one, but every magazine comparo I've seen puts the S60 in the bottom half.
If you throw in a $K or 2, you could get an Acura TL. A lot more car for the money, IMHO.

Um, you're clearly missing the "R" after S60. VERY different car. And one that spanks the shit out of any TL.

In case you're unfamiliar with it-

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=1794&page_num ber=1
or
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/volvo/s60r/100552525/roadtestarticle.html?articleId=80020&tid=edmunds.e .roadtest.content...Volvo*

zach
07-30-2005, 04:20 PM
I like it. Get it.

blee
07-30-2005, 04:32 PM
Nice family car, although I would opt for the V70R (if such a thing exists).

Hell, it's only gonna be for a few years. Get it.

TD
07-30-2005, 04:46 PM
Nice family car, although I would opt for the V70R (if such a thing exists).

Hell, it's only gonna be for a few years. Get it.

Such a thing does exist. But dealers never order manual versions to have in stock. And these incentives apply only to what's on hand.

At full price, I wouldn't get one.

But the V70R is pretty slick looking. Especially for a wagon.

BahnBaum
07-30-2005, 05:56 PM
Since you know it's an imperfect car, and are willing to live with the imperfections, that price point makes it almost a no-brainer.

I'd hit it.

Alex

dan
07-30-2005, 11:07 PM
used cts-v would be a lot better, I bet

SCA
07-31-2005, 12:31 AM
I like the S60R. I have never driven one, but I do think it is a good looking automobile. :thumbup:

blee
07-31-2005, 09:19 AM
Well? :dunno:

FC
07-31-2005, 10:10 AM
It's a steal. Get it. As long as you get rid of it before the warranty expires, go for it.

I had no idea they had those kinds of rebates.

TD
07-31-2005, 11:43 AM
Well? :dunno:

Well, what?

I would never be so rash as to buy a car the same day. So the earliest I'd do anything is Monday.

In the meantime, I need to determine, if I were to go ahead with the Volvo, what the plan for getting rid of the Saab would be. Carmax? It will be a slow sell via private party sale.

And I know that a few opinionated 'mudgeons haven't thrown their $0.02 in yet (some of whom have much more experience leasing than I do).

TD
07-31-2005, 11:50 AM
used cts-v would be a lot better, I bet

It's difficult to lease a used car.

Part of the reason to get this car over some others is that it can be had new and therefore can be leased. (There are very, very few cars currently in production that I am at all interested in - and this is the only larger sedan that holds any appeal.)

kognito
07-31-2005, 12:05 PM
In the meantime, I need to determine, if I were to go ahead with the Volvo, what the plan for getting rid of the Saab would be. Carmax? It will be a slow sell via private party sale.



Getting rid of the Saab might become a head ace. Those "employee price" deals have flooded, and killed the used car market (at least in my area)

The lease deal sounds very good. Make sure they don't have a hidden disposition fee at lease end. (can add 350-500 at the end) cash at inception sounds like first payment + title fees. Make sure they have waived all credit fees, I don't know you that well, but I'll bet your credit is excellent.

I Put about 10 miles on a S60 R and thought it wasn't too bad. A little heavy (but it is AWD) It put a smile on my face. I don't think you can go wrong as a "family" car.

JST
07-31-2005, 02:13 PM
used cts-v would be a lot better, I bet

It's difficult to lease a used car.

Part of the reason to get this car over some others is that it can be had new and therefore can be leased. (There are very, very few cars currently in production that I am at all interested in - and this is the only larger sedan that holds any appeal.)

It's essentially impossible to lease a used CTS-V--I investigated that seven ways from Sunday.

Besides, a CTS-V is an M3 replacement, not an Aero wagon replacement. It makes all sorts of sense to me to have a F or AWD car on all-seasons that you don't have to worry about storing snow tires for. Let's leave the debate about snows to another day, though one interesting question is whether this particular Volvo has all seasons or summer tires.

TD, you remember my feelings on the S60R. Ironically, I was just reading through that little review the other day on teamwtf.org. It's a very nice car for a daily driver, and it does everything extremely competently. The interior is gorgeous and very well appointed, and its quite fast. Still, at the end of our drive I was kind of underwhelmed. It's a fast car, it's a good car, but it's not a particularly fun car. Even accelerating in a straight line doesn't knock your socks off.

I know you have an aversion to Subarus, but honest to god you should drive a Legacy GT before you sign on the Volvo. In my opinion, the Legacy is a more fun car to drive, and of course its stats line up well with the S60.

WRT this lease deal itself, do you have more numbers? What is the residual and the money factor? Are you planning to pay the sales tax? Is the 950 the bank fee and a dealer processing fee?

The reason that I ask is that it seems like if the cap cost is 35K minus 4K in additional incentives, and the MSRP is 42K, the monthly should be even lower than 530. FWIW, plugging the following numbers into my spreadsheet:

MSRP 41920
Res. 50 percent
Cap cost 32000
Money factor 0.002 (8 percent)
36 mo term

Yields a monthly payment of 412.

To get to 530, you've got to crank the residual down to less than 40 percent (or increase the interest rate). That might be a more accurate picture of the "real" residudal of the car, but if you're paying for that much of the value of the car, it's not necessarily such a great deal.

SARAFIL
07-31-2005, 03:46 PM
Well? :dunno:

Well, what?

I would never be so rash as to buy a car the same day. So the earliest I'd do anything is Monday.

In the meantime, I need to determine, if I were to go ahead with the Volvo, what the plan for getting rid of the Saab would be. Carmax? It will be a slow sell via private party sale.

And I know that a few opinionated 'mudgeons haven't thrown their $0.02 in yet (some of whom have much more experience leasing than I do).

Any clue what the residual percentage and the money factor being used for the lease are? Have you verified that they are the "real" rates and that they are not padding them? (it's not necessarily a bad thing for them to mark up the rate, but you should at least have an idea if they are marking it up and how much so that you aren't being taken for a ride.)

I assume the lease is through Volvo and not a 3rd party. Does Volvo include GAP insurance with the lease? What is included in the upfront fees? First payment is a given... what about a security deposit and acquisition fee? Some of this stuff can be "rolled into" the payment, but it might or might not be advantageous to do so.

Also, ask now (instead of being surprised in 3 years) how Volvo handles the lease-end process: Will the car be inspected by a 3rd party at lease end? Do they have reasonable allowances for wear and tear? Is there a disposition fee?

TD
07-31-2005, 04:09 PM
The money factor is .00250 and the residual is 0.45. The ~$950 is the first payment (~$530) plus $160 for tags and $270 in fees.

The cap cost is $34,411 ($31,746 gross cap cost + $1665 sales tax).

Buried in that is $795 for acq fee.

JST
07-31-2005, 06:12 PM
The money factor is .00250 and the residual is 0.45. The ~$950 is the first payment (~$530) plus $160 for tags and $270 in fees.

The cap cost is $34,411 ($31,746 gross cap cost + $1665 sales tax).

Buried in that is $795 for acq fee.

Damn, that is a crap ass residual.

Personally, I don't like rolling taxes into my cap cost, just because I don't like paying interest on taxes, but that's a personal issue.

Dunno. That's a decent cap cost, but the residual is so bad that you might be better served by a different car.

SARAFIL
07-31-2005, 09:20 PM
The money factor is .00250 and the residual is 0.45. The ~$950 is the first payment (~$530) plus $160 for tags and $270 in fees.

The cap cost is $34,411 ($31,746 gross cap cost + $1665 sales tax).

Buried in that is $795 for acq fee.

Damn, that is a crap ass residual.

Personally, I don't like rolling taxes into my cap cost, just because I don't like paying interest on taxes, but that's a personal issue.

Dunno. That's a decent cap cost, but the residual is so bad that you might be better served by a different car.

I agree.... That lease program sucks. You're getting an enormous discount from MSRP, but that only gets you into "normal" territory for a car that cost. That huge discount is needed to offset the high rate and low residual.

For comparison, BMW's rate on the newly-released E90 isn't even that high. You'd expect Volvo to have a better rate on an older model that isn't exactly a big seller. Also, you could easily get a residual around 55% or higher on any of the German or Japanese competitors.

TD
08-01-2005, 10:22 AM
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't do anything about the residual. logically, it stands to reason it's crappy. I mean, this is not a car I'd want to try to resell in a few years. It's one of the reasons I want to lease it rather than buy it.

But I should be able to negotiate the money factor down a bit, right? They're throwing money at the cap cost at least partially due to the crappy residual. But that money factor is marked up.

JST
08-01-2005, 10:45 AM
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't do anything about the residual. logically, it stands to reason it's crappy. I mean, this is not a car I'd want to try to resell in a few years. It's one of the reasons I want to lease it rather than buy it.

But I should be able to negotiate the money factor down a bit, right? They're throwing money at the cap cost at least partially due to the crappy residual. But that money factor is marked up.

Probably--you should ask what their buy rate is. I'm not sure how much room there is in there, though, and even if you got them down to 0.0020, that would only lower the monthly to 508.63.

ZBB
08-01-2005, 12:07 PM
Before I bought my '01 325Ci, my shopping included the then-new S60. They had some introductory package deals on it that made it look favorable compared to other cars out there.

But then I compared lease quotes between it and a few other cars -- and the Volvo became much more "expensive" (mostly due to the low residual). I wasn't looking to lease, but was using lease quotes to help make the decision since I wanted to buy something that had higher residuals. The Volvo quickly fell off the list...

TD -- what about a CPO V60R or S60R. It may take you some time to locate one with stick, but it sounds like you may be able to get into one in the mid 20s (2 years old perhaps)? Just a thought...

Rob
08-01-2005, 04:24 PM
Two thoughts:

The Volvo we have has been a fundamentally solid car that does everything we ask of it. It is not a high performance car. I would buy another one without reservation. On the other hand, it's not going to hold its value (as you can see with the residual) and I would only buy it if it were a great deal (seems like it) or I planned on keeping it for a long time.

Trade in the Saab. Who is going to buy a full sized station wagon with a manual transmission? You will still be trying to sell that car 10 years from now. Trade it in and let them auction it.

Just out of curiosity, did anything require repair on the Saab other than the one time it died on the side of the road? Just trying to understand the "won't keep it outside of warranty" concept.

TD
08-01-2005, 04:47 PM
Two thoughts:

The Volvo we have has been a fundamentally solid car that does everything we ask of it. It is not a high performance car. I would buy another one without reservation. On the other hand, it's not going to hold its value (as you can see with the residual) and I would only buy it if it were a great deal (seems like it) or I planned on keeping it for a long time.

Trade in the Saab. Who is going to buy a full sized station wagon with a manual transmission? You will still be trying to sell that car 10 years from now. Trade it in and let them auction it.

Just out of curiosity, did anything require repair on the Saab other than the one time it died on the side of the road? Just trying to understand the "won't keep it outside of warranty" concept.

At my request, my wife took our Saab to CarMax today to get a quote. Had the wait been shorter (they told her over an hour), I'd have a price in hand. As it is, we'll try again tomorrow. I know that selling it will not be an easy endeavor. So I am prepared to eat it.

And there have been a handful of (mostly annoying) repairs needed on the Saab in addition to the roadside incident. But it's the stuff that hasn't happened that worries me. It makes some noises that can only be described as potentially expensive.

Rob
08-01-2005, 05:39 PM
As long as you are prepared to walk away at the end of the lease, I don't see any downside. The car might be a bargain at the buyout price, but it also might be worth a lot less.

I haven't driven the car you are looking at, or any other Volvo high performance car, but there is nothing about the Volvo we have that would keep me away from the brand.

Plus, if you are a "buy american" type of guy, you can claim it's a Ford. If you are a "american cars suck" kind of guy or an "image is everything" kind of guy, you can claim it's a very refined import. :)

Plus, it will give you something new to play with for awhile so you don't drive yourself crazy about what to replace the M3 with.

TD
08-01-2005, 05:54 PM
Actually, that has crossed my mind. If we have somethign new around, what to do about the M3 won't dominate my thoughts to quite the same degree.

lip277
08-03-2005, 01:27 AM
Saw this posted on another forum.....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear List:

I hope no one is offended that I am listing a non-coupe related post; if so, please ignore this and read no further.

I have a 1995 e34 540i with the factory M-Sport option
(812 option) that I am selling. Very reasonably priced at $10k. The car is a six speed (one of 135
made) black on tan, 115k, with the following goodies off the Motorsport shelves from the factory:

EDC III ("Nurburgring") suspension
"Throwing star" M5 wheels
M5 brakes
M-Technic air dam and side skirt kit
Late model e-34 M5 steering wheel and illuminated shift knob
M5 sport seats
M door sills

Performance modifications are Dinan cold air intake and exhaust.

The car and I are in San Francisco and the car is driven daily in the city. It is in very good condition and very well maintained; new clutch, water pump, radiator, brakes, thrust arm bushings, and ball joints. All fluids have been recently changed.

These were a limited edition run (200 in total, 65 automatics, 135 six speeds) that handle like, look like, and perform like an M5. But, they have a six speed and a torquey and low maintance V8 motor instead of the high maintance (and pricey) S38 motor. For more information go to: http://www.kindel.com/bmw/

Email me off-line at schnell540@yahoo.com

Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it were me (and I know your eyes are rolling already....) - I'd have a hard time being able to justify any car of the value the Volvo would be - lease or not. I just make up for them in individual value by buying in bulk! :lol:

I know it's too old (and being an M60 - it has the nikasil issue to see about) to be of direct interest - But - Just thought I'd share. You don't see too many 6 speed 540i's listed that often.

TD
08-03-2005, 06:55 AM
Saw this posted on another forum.....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear List:

I hope no one is offended that I am listing a non-coupe related post; if so, please ignore this and read no further.

I have a 1995 e34 540i with the factory M-Sport option
(812 option) that I am selling. Very reasonably priced at $10k. The car is a six speed (one of 135
made) black on tan, 115k, with the following goodies off the Motorsport shelves from the factory:

EDC III ("Nurburgring") suspension
"Throwing star" M5 wheels
M5 brakes
M-Technic air dam and side skirt kit
Late model e-34 M5 steering wheel and illuminated shift knob
M5 sport seats
M door sills

Performance modifications are Dinan cold air intake and exhaust.

The car and I are in San Francisco and the car is driven daily in the city. It is in very good condition and very well maintained; new clutch, water pump, radiator, brakes, thrust arm bushings, and ball joints. All fluids have been recently changed.

These were a limited edition run (200 in total, 65 automatics, 135 six speeds) that handle like, look like, and perform like an M5. But, they have a six speed and a torquey and low maintance V8 motor instead of the high maintance (and pricey) S38 motor. For more information go to: http://www.kindel.com/bmw/

Email me off-line at schnell540@yahoo.com

Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it were me (and I know your eyes are rolling already....) - I'd have a hard time being able to justify any car of the value the Volvo would be - lease or not. I just make up for them in individual value by buying in bulk! :lol:

I know it's too old (and being an M60 - it has the nikasil issue to see about) to be of direct interest - But - Just thought I'd share. You don't see too many 6 speed 540i's listed that often.

The '95 M-sport 540s have always held a strong appeal to me. I might even entertain the idea if that car wasn't in SF.

lemming
08-09-2005, 10:14 PM
my only concern about your family buying the S60R or v70R is that it will only serve to hasten the departure of the e36m3. the R has a lot more torque throughput the powerband and tons better brakes. it handles less well, but in every day driving (which is, at most, 5/10ths), you'll start to look at the m3 and wonder.

JetBlack330i
08-30-2005, 08:16 AM
Um, you're clearly missing the "R" after S60. VERY different car. And one that spanks the shit out of any TL.

In case you're unfamiliar with it-

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=1794&page_num ber=1
or
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/volvo/s60r/100552525/roadtestarticle.html?articleId=80020&tid=edmunds.e .roadtest.content...Volvo*With or without R, things haven't changed.
Nevertheless, trading in your Saab for the Volvo would be a step up for you, according to...
Car&Driver October 2005

Final:
BMW 330i
Lexus IS350 (0-60mph in 5.1s!)
Infiniti G35
Acura TL
Audi A4
Cadillac CTS
Volvo S60R
Saab 9-3

TD
08-30-2005, 10:51 AM
I have not read the article so I can't know why the cars ranked as they did. But for our "family car", the BMW, Lexus, and Audi are all too small. The Lexus can't be had with a stick with the big engine. The Acura is FWD. And the BMW and Cadillac are too ugly (IMO) to seriously consider. Plus the BMW is almost guaranteed to be more numb than the Volvo.

I don't know what their priorities were with this comparo. And if I were buying a car for ME as MY car, my ranking might be similar to theirs (although I'd never take the BMW). But for the "family car", what better choice is there than the Volvo?

bren
08-30-2005, 11:31 AM
Plus the BMW is almost guaranteed to be more numb than the Volvo.

:?

rumatt
08-30-2005, 11:36 AM
:?

I was afraid to ask...

but ditto.

Nick M3
08-30-2005, 11:43 AM
Am I the only one who's amused that the three cars that probably actually make the most sense are the ones that were categorically rejected without even a test drive?

clyde
08-30-2005, 11:48 AM
It's a nice corner that he doesn't seem to want to come out of...eliminate all reaosnable choices based on subjective prejudgements so he doesn't have to do anything except maintain the status quo. I'm very familiar with that kind of situation and practice it myself in other areas. Still, I think that Tom should quit worrying and learn to love the bomb.

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/charger/enlarge_15.jpg

It's a hybrid too...burns gas AND rubber. :ack:

JST
08-30-2005, 12:31 PM
It's a nice corner that he doesn't seem to want to come out of...eliminate all reaosnable choices based on subjective prejudgements so he doesn't have to do anything except maintain the status quo. I'm very familiar with that kind of situation and practice it myself in other areas. Still, I think that Tom should quit worrying and learn to love the bomb.

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/charger/enlarge_15.jpg

It's a hybrid too...burns gas AND rubber. :ack:

No stick--otherwise I'd be all over it, too.

clyde
08-30-2005, 12:33 PM
No stick--otherwise I'd be all over it, too.

hence:

quit worrying and learn to love the bomb

ayn
08-30-2005, 12:37 PM
Am I the only one who's amused that the three cars that probably actually make the most sense are the ones that were categorically rejected without even a test drive?

You're not the only one.

dan
08-30-2005, 12:54 PM
Am I the only one who's amused that the three cars that probably actually make the most sense are the ones that were categorically rejected without even a test drive?
which 3?

Nick M3
08-30-2005, 01:58 PM
Legacy GT, CTS-V, 330i.

ZBB
08-30-2005, 03:09 PM
But for our "family car", the BMW, Lexus, and Audi are all too small. The Lexus can't be had with a stick with the big engine.

Lexus had the new IS on display at Pebble Beach last week... It is a very nice looking car, with great proportions. Interior is beautiful. You could replace the grille with twin kidneys, and it would look like a proper 3-series evolution design.

It is much bigger than the outgoing IS, and may be slightly larger than the new 3. Perhaps they'll add a stick to the 3.5 soon?

JST
08-30-2005, 03:31 PM
I have not read the article so I can't know why the cars ranked as they did. But for our "family car", the BMW, Lexus, and Audi are all too small. The Lexus can't be had with a stick with the big engine. The Acura is FWD. And the BMW and Cadillac are too ugly (IMO) to seriously consider. Plus the BMW is almost guaranteed to be more numb than the Volvo.

I don't know what their priorities were with this comparo. And if I were buying a car for ME as MY car, my ranking might be similar to theirs (although I'd never take the BMW). But for the "family car", what better choice is there than the Volvo?

You left off the G35.

It's as big as an E39, only slightly heavier than an E46, has 300 hp, has a six speed manual, has plenty of space front and rear, has a limited slip differential, handles reasonably well, and has decent steering feel.

If I hadn't been able to get such a smoking deal on that ZHP, I might have bought one--for a family car, especially, it makes tremendous sense.

FC
08-30-2005, 04:02 PM
You left off the G35.

It's as big as an E39, only slightly heavier than an E46, has 300 hp, has a six speed manual, has plenty of space front and rear, has a limited slip differential, handles reasonably well, and has decent steering feel.

If I hadn't been able to get such a smoking deal on that ZHP, I might have bought one--for a family car, especially, it makes tremendous sense.

I think if my 330i got stolen or totalled and I needed another new sports sedan, I'd have to go with the G35.

Still, I like my car. And with driving the Saabaru so often, the 330i does not feel so underpowered down low.

I just can't warm up to the new 330i's looks, nevermind how it compares objectively to my E46.