Why are premium euro wagons more than their sibling SUV's?

[FC]

I'm talking particularly about the ML350 vs the E350 wagon, and the X5 vs the 530iT.

MB E350W 4-Matic - $54K
MB ML350 -$40K

That is nuts. I expect the domestic production to save several thousand, but 14K? :? It's not like you get any signifcant options as std equipment either. :rolleyes:

Just read the C&D article on the ML350, and other than a shitty stock suspension (that can seemingly be turned into a great one with the optional airmatic - and maybe better sways) it seems like a great luxury family car. Awesome engine, AWD, great build and materials, and extremely refined.

This is what bothers me, and I have said it before. One is almost forced to consider SUV's given the lack of options for quality AWD wagons with decent room that don't easily cost $50K+.

A couple of weeks back I signed up for an invitation from MB to test drive the ML in a closed course, etc. It will be interesting to see just how car-like and "good" it is. It does look VERY sharp, IMO. Though to me the original X5 is still on of the best-looking SUV's ever made.

It seems MB has in fact made tremendous progress in quality recently.

[SARAFIL]

I'm talking particularly about the ML350 vs the E350 wagon, and the X5 vs the 530iT.

MB E350W 4-Matic - $54K
MB ML350 -$40K

That is nuts. I expect the domestic production to save several thousand, but 14K? :? It's not like you get any signifcant options as std equipment either. :rolleyes:

Just read the C&D article on the ML350, and other than a shitty stock suspension (that can seemingly be turned into a great one with the optional airmatic - and maybe better sways) it seems like a great luxury family car. Awesome engine, AWD, great build and materials, and extremely refined.

This is what bothers me, and I have said it before. One is almost forced to consider SUV's given the lack of options for quality AWD wagons with decent room that don't easily cost $50K+.

A couple of weeks back I signed up for an invitation from MB to test drive the ML in a closed course, etc. It will be interesting to see just how car-like and "good" it is. It does look VERY sharp, IMO. Though to me the original X5 is still on of the best-looking SUV's ever made.

It seems MB has in fact made tremendous progress in quality recently.

That's one of the things that hurts these cars. Similarly priced, I think the wagons would be much more successful. As it is, though, BMW and Mercedes make it a tough choice for someone to choose the wagon.

$48,000 for an X5 3.0 or $54,000 for a 530xiT? I'm looking forward to the 530xiT and expect it to be a great car, but come on now-- is it worth $6,000 more than an X5? I don't think so.

For the price of the 530xiT, you're not too far away from a modestly-equipped X5 4.4 (Premium, Cold Weather, no Nav).

I really like the look of this car, though. Too bad it's green.
http://forums.e60.net/uploads/1113330781/gallery_390_260_155183.jpg

Oh yeah, BTW, that's a Euro 545iT. :twisted:

[FC]

That's one of the things that hurts these cars. Similarly priced, I think the wagons would be much more successful. As it is, though, BMW and Mercedes make it a tough choice for someone to choose the wagon.

$48,000 for an X5 3.0 or $54,000 for a 530xiT? I'm looking forward to the 530xiT and expect it to be a great car, but come on now-- is it worth $6,000 more than an X5? I don't think so.

For the price of the 530xiT, you're not too far away from a modestly-equipped X5 4.4 (Premium, Cold Weather, no Nav).

Oh yeah, BTW, that's a Euro 545iT. :twisted:

It seems the difference is even greater on the MB's. To me at least, the E wagon looks aweome in and out (better than the SUV), whereas like I said, on top of being cheaper, the X5 looks better.

BTW, the last several E60 5er's I've seen have all been 525's. Is that what you see? I think I've only seen ONE 545, and only a few 530's.

[SARAFIL]

That's one of the things that hurts these cars. Similarly priced, I think the wagons would be much more successful. As it is, though, BMW and Mercedes make it a tough choice for someone to choose the wagon.

$48,000 for an X5 3.0 or $54,000 for a 530xiT? I'm looking forward to the 530xiT and expect it to be a great car, but come on now-- is it worth $6,000 more than an X5? I don't think so.

For the price of the 530xiT, you're not too far away from a modestly-equipped X5 4.4 (Premium, Cold Weather, no Nav).

Oh yeah, BTW, that's a Euro 545iT. :twisted:

It seems the difference is even greater on the MB's. To me at least, the E wagon looks aweome in and out (better than the SUV), whereas like I said, on top of being cheaper, the X5 looks better.

BTW, the last several E60 5er's I've seen have all been 525's. Is that what you see? I think I've only seen ONE 545, and only a few 530's.

We sell 525s and 530s in similar numbers, but we sell far fewer 545s. I wouldn't say a 525 is more common than a 530. In fact, looking at the cars BMW is giving us, I'd say that they expect us to sell more 530s than 525s.

[FC]

We sell 525s and 530s in similar numbers, but we sell far fewer 545s. I wouldn't say a 525 is more common than a 530. In fact, looking at the cars BMW is giving us, I'd say that they expect us to sell more 530s than 525s.

Interesting... Must have just been coincidence.

[Roadstergal]

SUVs are exempt from a number of standards that passenger cars have to conform to - I imagine it'd make them cheaper to make...

[FC]

SUVs are exempt from a number of standards that passenger cars have to conform to - I imagine it'd make them cheaper to make...

While very true, the equipment on luxury SUV's is no different than luxury sedans, not because regulations mandate it, but rather due to competition. That could still account for a bit of difference, but I would guess it is very small. But I don't pretend to know a whole lot on this subject.

[lemming]

i prefer wagons whenever possible, myself.

the most obvious thing that stands out to me is that the SUVs are built in the US while the cars are built in germany and while that cannot fully justify the added cost differential, the cost savings of building them here is huge.

my own experience with german cars made in the US is that if you're paying the big bucks for the german marque, might as well be choosy and buy the ones made over there and not the ones made here.

:flame:

[FC]

i prefer wagons whenever possible, myself.

the most obvious thing that stands out to me is that the SUVs are built in the US while the cars are built in germany and while that cannot fully justify the added cost differential, the cost savings of building them here is huge.

my own experience with german cars made in the US is that if you're paying the big bucks for the german marque, might as well be choosy and buy the ones made over there and not the ones made here.

:flame:

I agree. And frankly, for a variety of reasons, I expected MB to have quality issues with the ML's when they first came out. They went through 7-8 years of growing pains. The later ML's were actually pretty decent build/quality-wise. After all this time, and further improvements, I would not be too concerned about a German car built in the US other than my standard apprehension toward 1st/2nd-year models no matter what.

[Jason C]

i prefer wagons whenever possible, myself.

the most obvious thing that stands out to me is that the SUVs are built in the US while the cars are built in germany and while that cannot fully justify the added cost differential, the cost savings of building them here is huge.

my own experience with german cars made in the US is that if you're paying the big bucks for the german marque, might as well be choosy and buy the ones made over there and not the ones made here.

:flame:

I agree. And frankly, for a variety of reasons, I expected MB to have quality issues with the ML's when they first came out. They went through 7-8 years of growing pains. The later ML's were actually pretty decent build/quality-wise. After all this time, and further improvements, I would not be too concerned about a German car built in the US other than my standard apprehension toward 1st/2nd-year models no matter what.

Er, MB's quality/reliability is still in the shitter as of late. I wouldn't be too optimistic.

[lemming]

the same problem will arise when the 330xiT finally comes to the US. because the x3 is made by magna steyr in austria, i wonder how large the price differential will be.

time and time again (particularly after sitting in and then driving the x3), i will opt for the 330xi wagon.

[FC]

Er, MB's quality/reliability is still in the shitter as of late. I wouldn't be too optimistic.

They started corrective action ~last year. Already-released vehicles are not going to be significantly affected.

Considering quality KILLED the original ML, I expect this new one to be good. But again, it will take a couple of years to really find out.

Their new 3.5L V6 has been great. For that matter it is mostly just electronics that MB has had issues with.

[Jason C]

They started corrective action ~last year.

They *say* that they started corrective action. However in lieu of concrete signs of progress, I wouldn't be too optimistic.

(These are still the same managing board of dumbasses who ushered out Wolfgang Bernhard for daring to suggest improvements to MB's horrid standings as-of-late, and then went and implemented all that he suggested. IIRC, their disgruntled shareholders called out the CEO at the recent board meeting. I wouldn't want to be DaimlerChrysler right now. Ironically, the Chrysler group is the one that's doing well nowadays.)

[Roadstergal]

While very true, the equipment on luxury SUV's is no different than luxury sedans, not because regulations mandate it, but rather due to competition.

Not the engines/emissions/etc. The interior stuff, yes, but I don't think that's as critical to the purchase price. Sarafil would know better than I, though.

[Rob]

You guys are dancing around what is probably the biggest reason for the difference - the exchange rate. It is nearly doubling the cost of a lot of things and has to have an impact on european manufactured vs. domesticly manufactured.

[ZBB]

While very true, the equipment on luxury SUV's is no different than luxury sedans, not because regulations mandate it, but rather due to competition.

Not the engines/emissions/etc. The interior stuff, yes, but I don't think that's as critical to the purchase price. Sarafil would know better than I, though.

Although the Euro-designed SUVs are typically designed to meet global standards, not just US standards. The US is the oddball country that arbitrarily designates SUVs as trucks instead of passenger vehicles...

[ZBB]

You guys are dancing around what is probably the biggest reason for the difference - the exchange rate. It is nearly doubling the cost of a lot of things and has to have an impact on european manufactured vs. domesticly manufactured.

bingo... the Euro is ~$1.30 now, vs <$0.90 3 years ago.

Does anyone remember the price of an '02 530iT vs and '02 X5 3.0? I'm guessing they were probably pretty close, in the low $40s equally optioned.

[Nick M3]

You guys are dancing around what is probably the biggest reason for the difference - the exchange rate. It is nearly doubling the cost of a lot of things and has to have an impact on european manufactured vs. domesticly manufactured.

bingo... the Euro is ~$1.30 now, vs <$0.90 3 years ago.

Does anyone remember the price of an '02 530iT vs and '02 X5 3.0? I'm guessing they were probably pretty close, in the low $40s equally optioned.

There was no 530iT. A 525iT was more expensive than a 530i, IIRC.

[ZBB]

You guys are dancing around what is probably the biggest reason for the difference - the exchange rate. It is nearly doubling the cost of a lot of things and has to have an impact on european manufactured vs. domesticly manufactured.

bingo... the Euro is ~$1.30 now, vs <$0.90 3 years ago.

Does anyone remember the price of an '02 530iT vs and '02 X5 3.0? I'm guessing they were probably pretty close, in the low $40s equally optioned.

There was no 530iT. A 525iT was more expensive than a 530i, IIRC.

My dumb... I guess I'm in Europe too often and see 530iT and 530dTs around...

Anyway -- Compare these 2 pages that summarize '03 e39s and X5s (I couldn't find the same page for '02s or '01s)...

http://www.bmwworld.com/models/years/2003/540i_touring.htm
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/years/2003/525i_touring.htm
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/years/2003/x5_30i.htm
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/years/2003/x5_44i.htm

You're almost right -- the 525iT and X3 3.0 were essentially the same price... but that would have made a 530iT ~4-5k more than the 2.5 (based on the sedan and e46 price difference for the engine)

And the 540iT was again more expensive than the X5 4.0

anyway... who's got the next idea?