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View Full Version : Why does DBW suck? A partial explanation...


Jason C
05-04-2005, 08:59 AM
So I got back from a very long impromptu conversation with someone in the know - and damn! It was one of those "always thought it might have been that but needed to confirm it" type of deals.

I've seen people here complain about throttle-by-wire, mostly talking about perceived "lag" but also mentioning that in some instances revs were slow to come down during a throttle lift - making the engine seem lethargic. This is in (extreme) contrast to, say, a racing engine, supersport motorcycle engine, or that lovely V10 in the Carrera GT.

Now I have always had a suspicion that it was emission related, and after learning about what happens to the fuel/air ratio upon a sudden throttle lift, I was pretty sure. Now I'm definitely sure:

First of all, when you use an electronic throttle, your right foot is merely sending a *request*. That's it! That's all - a "request" to the computer that you want more air or less air to flow to the combustion chambers. What the computer does with that request is entirely up to the programming. Comforting, eh? :)

Most (if not all) cars have some sort of IAC along with the throttle. IAC stands for Idle Air Control, and the main reason it's there is to provide air for the engine when the throttle plate is completely closed. So when you're idling, the air that the engine receives is going through an IAC plumbing and bypassing the closed throttle plate. Some cars have tiny IAC's (certain GMs) while other cars have a relatively large IAC (BMWs, Hondas).

What does that have to do with that despised DBW? Well, consider...

When you abruptly lift the throttle, especially if you were at WOT just a split second before, you cut off the main flow of air to the combustion chambers - and create a momentary rich condition. This is because the fuel injectors are still a half-beat behind, they have to first get a signal from the PCM to alter pulse width. The PCM in most instances is waiting to get a signal from the pre-O2 sensor before doing anything. The O2 sensor has to wait a little further for some combustion gasses to analyze. All this takes a little time.

Meanwhile, as you drastically reduced airflow via a throttle lift, the injectors haven't responded instantaneously. They're still assuming big throttle opening = big pulse width, so they continue to dump a lot of fuel into the combustion chamber for a moment before the PCM signal gets to them. This is not good (emission wise): Rich condition = high HC/CO levels and accelerated wear of the catalytic converter. As automakers are under pressure to reduce emissions and increase vehicle longevity, they'll do all sorts of tricks to reach that end, damn the means.

Getting back to the DBW BMW: Accelerating, big lift, what happens now? When the computer sees above-idle RPMs and a closed throttle, it assumes you are trying to decelerate. It will do what it can to make the process gradual. By doing this, all the components named above have more time to react and sort things out and you don't dump as much fuel into the exhaust. The BMW throttle-by-wire uses the IAC in order to accomplish it, like this:

• Big throttle lift after acceleration.
• Throttle plates fully closed, computer recognizes this via the TPS
• Computer is pre-programmed to prevent a sudden rich condition under a throttle lift
• Computer initiates preprogrammed setting(s) while you are decelerating
• IAC is fully opened by the computer, allowing a large amount of air to flow to the combustion chamber
• Computer juggles IAC opening (like a throttle body!) and pulse width to gradually bring RPMs down, minimizing any momentary rich condition
• Carmudgeon curses as engine sluggishly responds.
• Carmudgeon vows to swear off DBW. Goes on to ditch DBW and buys E36 M3/E30 M3/Red 325is with tan interior/etc.
• Carmudgeon spends the rest of his days bad-mouthing DBW on the interweb. :P





(PS: I know I haven't said a word regarding the Michigan trip, I'll post it eventually :flipoff: )

nate
05-04-2005, 09:09 AM
I knew this when the E46 came out, it was in the initial press reviews.

Uh...welcome to six years ago :dunno:

rumatt
05-04-2005, 09:12 AM
Good stuff.

So can you help us re-program our DBW logic? :eeps:

Jason C
05-04-2005, 09:13 AM
I knew this when the E46 came out, it was in the initial press reviews.

Uh...welcome to six years ago :dunno:

I posted this for the people who don't know. If you know already, then :thumbup:

rumatt
05-04-2005, 09:15 AM
I knew this when the E46 came out, it was in the initial press reviews.

Uh...welcome to six years ago :dunno:

Pointing out the first part was fine. The last sentence was just gratuitous truculency

Jason C
05-04-2005, 09:16 AM
I knew this when the E46 came out, it was in the initial press reviews.

Uh...welcome to six years ago :dunno:

Pointing out the first part was fine. The last sentence was just gratuitous truculency

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

BahnBaum
05-04-2005, 09:34 AM
I knew this when the E46 came out, it was in the initial press reviews.

Uh...welcome to six years ago :dunno:

Pointing out the first part was fine. The last sentence was just gratuitous truculency

Coffee snortage.

Alex

operknockity
05-04-2005, 10:35 AM
I knew this when the E46 came out, it was in the initial press reviews.

Uh...welcome to six years ago :dunno:

Pointing out the first part was fine. The last sentence was just gratuitous truculency

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Plaz
05-04-2005, 10:51 AM
I'd imagine this is also what keeps my 330 from bucking like my Honda and Mazda did when lifting off the throttle in 1st.

Optimus Prime
05-04-2005, 11:08 AM
I knew this when the E46 came out, it was in the initial press reviews.

Uh...welcome to six years ago :dunno:

Pointing out the first part was fine. The last sentence was just gratuitous truculency :kekeke:

nate
05-04-2005, 12:40 PM
I knew this when the E46 came out, it was in the initial press reviews.

Uh...welcome to six years ago :dunno:

Pointing out the first part was fine. The last sentence was just gratuitous truculency:kekeke:

Optimus Prime
05-04-2005, 12:53 PM
I knew this when the E46 came out, it was in the initial press reviews.

Uh...welcome to six years ago :dunno:

Pointing out the first part was fine. The last sentence was just gratuitous truculency:kekeke:

Welcome to hour and a half ago :flame: :)

TD
05-04-2005, 12:59 PM
I knew this when the E46 came out, it was in the initial press reviews.


The E46 initially came out with a partially electronic throttle set-up. But it wasn't until June 2000 production that the pedal became merely a sender. While I do not know what all technically changed with this change, it is clear that this change had a profound effect on throttle behavior. And the difference is between acceptable and unacceptable.

ride365
05-04-2005, 01:09 PM
I'd imagine this is also what keeps my 330 from bucking like my Honda and Mazda did when lifting off the throttle in 1st.

actually i find that my e46 bucks wild when i upshift to second while going over bumps, something that never happened with my e30 or accord going over the same bumps.

The HACK
05-04-2005, 01:35 PM
The 350z has 100% electronic throttles, and when I lift off of the 350z in gear (say, going down a steep grade in the parking garage) I can sometime induce a BACKFIRE because the mixture was so rich, especially with the aftermarket header installed and a prolonged drive to work.

Stuka's Big Burd and Ricemus both don't have that annoying delay in the throttle application.

ride365
05-04-2005, 01:38 PM
obviously not everyone uses DBW for emissions purposes, or at least not to the degree that BMW does.

dan
05-04-2005, 01:54 PM
if it sucks so much just buy a car without DBW

blee
05-04-2005, 01:59 PM
More and more cars are coming out w/ DBW these days. It may involve a little more engineering from the physical standpoint, but the manufacturer gains a lot more control over the engine's emissions and performance behavior.

The problem is that it does suck for people who like their cars to do what they're told. It's probably the one biggest annoyance I have with my Focus: the artifically s l o w rise and fall in RPM. Aftermarket tuners have ameliorated this somewhat, but the only true solution would be to rip out the "wire" part and connect the pedal to the throttle with a cable. I wonder if this is even possible without the ECU farting.

ride365
05-04-2005, 02:08 PM
if it sucks so much just buy a car without DBW

1. i did

2. we are (i am) merely discussing why it sucks, not whether or not it prevents us from choosing a car or if it's bad enough to get rid of a car we already own.

3. it's not DBW that sucks, just how BMW uses it.

rumatt
05-04-2005, 02:20 PM
1. i did

2. we are (i am) merely discussing why it sucks, not whether or not it prevents us from choosing a car or if it's bad enough to get rid of a car we already own.

3. it's not DBW that sucks, just how BMW uses it.

What he said.

JST
05-04-2005, 02:34 PM
More and more cars are coming out w/ DBW these days. It may involve a little more engineering from the physical standpoint, but the manufacturer gains a lot more control over the engine's emissions and performance behavior.

The problem is that it does suck for people who like their cars to do what they're told. It's probably the one biggest annoyance I have with my Focus: the artifically s l o w rise and fall in RPM. Aftermarket tuners have ameliorated this somewhat, but the only true solution would be to rip out the "wire" part and connect the pedal to the throttle with a cable. I wonder if this is even possible without the ECU farting.

Reprogramming the throttle (and DBW) is a lot better than the alternative, mechanical means to control emissions. The old Contour/Contour SVT had a tube that bypassed the throttle entirely and fed air into the engine to keep the revs from falling to fast--the work around for that was a piece of drilled copper pipe stuck in a rubber tube in the engine.

rumatt
05-04-2005, 02:42 PM
Rather than complaining, we should find a solution.

How hard is it to develop aftermarket software to change the DBW logic? Doesn't the shark partially do this?

ride365
05-04-2005, 02:51 PM
Rather than complaining, we should find a solution...Doesn't the shark partially do this?

yeah i was under the impression that this was already addressed by certain chips. if not, then maybe i should consider getting rid of a car i already own.

TD
05-04-2005, 02:54 PM
Rather than complaining, we should find a solution...Doesn't the shark partially do this?

yeah i was under the impression that this was already addressed by certain chips. if not, then maybe i should consider getting rid of a car i already own.

I got rid of mine.

clyde
05-04-2005, 03:54 PM
The 350z has 100% electronic throttles, and when I lift off of the 350z in gear (say, going down a steep grade in the parking garage) I can sometime induce a BACKFIRE because the mixture was so rich, especially with the aftermarket header installed and a prolonged drive to work.

Stuka's Big Burd and Ricemus both don't have that annoying delay in the throttle application.

Under certain conditions, I could always induce in gear backfires on the fuel injected 302 V8s from Ford made in the mid/late 80s when I wanted to. While the FI was electronic, the throttle itself was mechanical.

If I wanted to, I could make flames shoot out of the DBW RX-8's exhaust. OTOH, there is no BMW like discernable delay on throttle application, nor is there a discernable rev hang when releasing the throttle or putting in the clutch. Give it less gas and the revs drop. NOW.

I've said a number of times that DBW isn't a bad thing by itself. It's the programming that matters. The same way that a PC isn't inherently evil...it just becomes evil when someone installs an MS operating system on it.

Jason C
05-04-2005, 04:00 PM
The 350z has 100% electronic throttles, and when I lift off of the 350z in gear (say, going down a steep grade in the parking garage) I can sometime induce a BACKFIRE because the mixture was so rich, especially with the aftermarket header installed and a prolonged drive to work.

Stuka's Big Burd and Ricemus both don't have that annoying delay in the throttle application.

Under certain conditions, I could always induce in gear backfires on the fuel injected 302 V8s from Ford made in the mid/late 80s when I wanted to. While the FI was electronic, the throttle itself was mechanical.

If I wanted to, I could make flames shoot out of the DBW RX-8's exhaust. OTOH, there is no BMW like discernable delay on throttle application, nor is there a discernable rev hang when releasing the throttle or putting in the clutch. Give it less gas and the revs drop. NOW.

I've said a number of times that DBW isn't a bad thing by itself. It's the programming that matters. The same way that a PC isn't inherently evil...it just becomes evil when someone installs an MS operating system on it.

I used "Why does DBW suck" in the title taking into account the prevailing attitude here. :twisted:

I'd still rather have mechanical, given the choice on my own car. However, even the aforementioned Carrera GT uses an electronic throttle.

RKT BMR
05-04-2005, 08:53 PM
I've said a number of times that DBW isn't a bad thing by itself. It's the programming that matters. The same way that a PC isn't inherently evil...it just becomes evil when someone installs an MS operating system on it.

Bingo.

BMW (and other manufacturers) program the throttle response and control in the pussy range of drivability. They do this to overperform on emissions output, as well as for ride/controllability/comfort reasons for their target market. We may not like it, but maximum performance gearheads like us are no the main target market -- status-seeking middle-incomers are.

Shark and other aftermarket remapping helps a lot, and even though emissions are affected to a small degree on throttle-off, the car still is well within CARB spec. When I installed my blower three years ago and had the ECU reprogrammed, the change in response was dramatic (not to mention the increased power, but that's a different subject :) ). I can watch the brief, rich combustion come through on the pre-cat O2 sensors with my AutoXray scan tool when pulling off the throttle suddenly -- it's kind of cool.