First track day: impressions

[rumatt]

I survived. No car sickness at all.

It was awesome. More later...

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/files/dcp_0539_631.jpg

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/files/dcp_0547_109.jpg

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[Plaz]

:thumbup:

[rumatt]

:thumbup:

Thanks dude.

I'd say that every car enthusiast needs to go to the track at least once in their life. I wouldn't say I'd want to do this every weekend, or that anything really shocked me today, but experiencing it once first hand was definitely worth it.

In terms of how the event met expectations: driving was less "scary" than I expected. Everything seemed to move slowly (I'm used to autox) and it just felt smooth and safe. What was more scary than I expected was the other cars. :shock: At one point I was driving "the line" and trying to look ahead to plan my attack, and the newbie in front of me slammed on his brakes way before it was necessary. It wasn't really close, but that was my closest "incident" for the day.

I was very glad I was in the E30, and not the E46. I guess I could have felt comfortable in the E46, (in terms of not being nervous about recking it) but I probably would have had to drive less aggressively than I did. I was pushing the car reasonably hard by the end of the day.

When there were no distractions, I was pretty good about getting everything right, and staying on the line. But as soon as I'd get a car on my ass, or the instructor would start talking, it was very easy for me to get distracted and start messing things up. There's so freaking much to think about. I was on overload most of the time, and any extra inputs caused me to forget something else.

I wasn't sure how well I was doing during the day because most of my instructor's comments were "constructive" (ie, negative: you didn't get that line right, etc). But then at the end of the day, he wrote on recommendation that I should be moved up a class. Clearly I wasn't too bad (moving out of novice after one or two events is not a gimmie in this club. )

That's all for now. Zzzzzzzz..

[operknockity]

In terms of how the event met expectations: driving was less "scary" than I expected. Everything seemed to move slowly (I'm used to autox) and it just felt smooth and safe. What was more scary than I expected was the other cars. :shock: At one point I was driving "the line" and trying to look ahead to plan my attack, and the newbie in front of me slammed on his brakes way before it was necessary. It wasn't really close, but that was my closest "incident" for the day.
....
When there were no distractions, I was pretty good about getting everything right, and staying on the line. But as soon as I'd get a car on my ass, or the instructor would start talking, it was very easy for me to get distracted and start messing things up. There's so freaking much to think about. I was on overload most of the time, and any extra inputs caused me to forget something else.
The only prior "performance" driving I've had was our SoCal trips out through Death Valley rather than autocrossing (which I'll likely try soon), but I felt very much like you did when I took my first driving class at Willow Springs. The instructor on my first day kept asking me if this was really my first time on the track. Of course, knowing what to do and actually doing it correctly are 2 different things.

I really can't say that I was causing anyone else any problems, given that I was a newbie. And I didn't mind at all giving the point-by to everyone. But I also experienced some discomfort when I was in a pack or had a bunch of folks on my tail. The second day, the instructor actually turned my rear view mirror so I couldn't use it (just for a couple of minutes) to try and cure me of the habit of looking back too often and getting spooked by other cars on my tail. It really took me by suprise when he did it, but it worked!

And, yeah, I was on info overload the whole time too. At one point the instructor asked me to provide running commentary of what I was doing at each step, but that just disctracted me more trying to think about what to say as I was thinking about what to do. It actually worked out best for me when the instructor would stop coaching me on what to do and only comment when I did something eggresiously wrong, surprisingly right, or when I asked questions. I guess that means that I was doing pretty good since there wasn't much conversation during that run.

Glad you had fun! I know I did and will be back on the track some time soon :thumbup:

For those that don't frequent the 'Fest any more, here is a picture of me in the turn 4-5 transition at Willow Springs...
http://www.bimmerfest.com/photos/data/500/113791-DSC_7943.jpg

[rumatt]

Any chance I can request a thread split? The posts startig wyth the pic of my car could be a thread called "First track day: impressions" or something.

I should have done that from the beginning. :rolleyes:

[TD]

Any chance I can request a thread split? The posts startig wyth the pic of my car could be a thread called "First track day: impressions" or something.

I should have done that from the beginning. :rolleyes:

"wyth"?

I guess you're tired.

[kognito]

I still remember my first time at Limerock (17 years ago :eeps: ) with my 1972 2002. I had a blast.

Did you go up the Taconic to get there?? That can be a fun road when there aren't many cars on it.

I'm trying to talk my wife into going camping up there for all the racing on Memorial day weekend

[BahnBaum]

"wyth"?

I guess you're tired.

Or the adrenaline's still pumping. :P

Alex

[rumatt]

"wyth"?

Oops. That will teach me to type wyth one hand.

kognito, yep, I drove up the taconic. It's definitely a nice drive. I was a bit concered about cops because I was cooking along alone most of the way at 6:00am, but it was a pleasant drive. It's against the flow of NYC traffic, so the drive home was nice too, even at 5:30pm on a friday.

Operknockety.. nice picture. I don't think I got a single picture of my car on the track. :cry: How many have you done? I actually found that talking myself through things was helping. I kept making the same mistakes unless I conciously thought about them. The most common was releasing the brake to quickly, letting it pop out rather than un-squeezing it gently as I began turn-in. :nono:

Thanks to everyone for all the car advice leading up to this. The car held up great. :thumbup: Brakes were no issue at all. I had all sorts of braking power, although limerock isn't particularly hard on the brakes. I spent a lot of time in 3rd gear at high-rpm's, and somtimes I wonder how much wear and tear that puts on a 15+ year old engine. Several times I bounced off the 7K rev limiter :speechle: because I was worrying about more important things than shifting (ie, staying on the track).

But hey, this is what I bought the car for. If it wears out, I'll just find a used M20 engine for sale in the DC area and beg you guys help me install it. :)

[operknockity]

Operknockety.. nice picture. I don't think I got a single picture of my car on the track. :cry: How many have you done? I actually found that talking myself through things was helping. I kept making the same mistakes unless I conciously thought about them. The most common was releasing the brake to quickly, letting it pop out rather than un-squeezing it gently as I began turn-in. :nono:
Willow Springs puts camera folks at various places around the track and then sells the resulting pictures (at an egregiously large markup), either printed or on floppy/CD.

That was my first as a student. I had been to Buttonwillow to sit in on the classroom sessions and bum rides about a month or so previous.

I was consciously thinking about everything, but I was having problems trying to articulate what I was doing and doing it at the same time. Maybe as I get a little better and not running under such constant information overload.

I also had problems with popping the brake/throttle rather than squeezing on/off. I think that is a common problem with beginners.

One other "problem" I had was that my instructors had different ideas about what the best line was through some of the turns. My Saturday instructor really didn't like the line I took through one particular turn but my Sunday instructor said just the opposite. Argh!

[Nick M3]

Operknockety.. nice picture. I don't think I got a single picture of my car on the track. :cry: How many have you done? I actually found that talking myself through things was helping. I kept making the same mistakes unless I conciously thought about them. The most common was releasing the brake to quickly, letting it pop out rather than un-squeezing it gently as I began turn-in. :nono:
Willow Springs puts camera folks at various places around the track and then sells the resulting pictures (at an egregiously large markup), either printed or on floppy/CD.

That was my first as a student. I had been to Buttonwillow to sit in on the classroom sessions and bum rides about a month or so previous.

I was consciously thinking about everything, but I was having problems trying to articulate what I was doing and doing it at the same time. Maybe as I get a little better and not running under such constant information overload.

I also had problems with popping the brake/throttle rather than squeezing on/off. I think that is a common problem with beginners.

One other "problem" I had was that my instructors had different ideas about what the best line was through some of the turns. My Saturday instructor really didn't like the line I took through one particular turn but my Sunday instructor said just the opposite. Argh!

What I've found is that there are typically two lines that you'll get: The DE instructor line, and the race car driver line.

I've NEVER liked the DE line better than the race line.

[PhilH]

...experiencing it once first hand was definitely worth it.

:wink2:

You just bought an E30 325is with H&R/Bilsteins as a track car and you're happy you experienced driving on the track once? :?

I guess this means your day at Lime Rock didn't spoil you for autocrosses and this will be more an autocross car than a track car?

[Nick M3]

...experiencing it once first hand was definitely worth it.

:wink2:

You just bought an E30 325is with H&R/Bilsteins as a track car and you're happy you experienced driving on the track once? :?

I guess this means your day at Lime Rock didn't spoil you for autocrosses and this will be more an autocross car than a track car?

Try the WDCR-SCCA autoxes around here... There's nothign that gets my adrenaline up like our high speed events. Sure, the total fun is greater at a track day, but when you've got seriously competitive events and courses that really test your courage, autocrossing can be a LOT of fun. ...if all you've got are those lame, tiny little lots, then it gets old FAST.

[BahnBaum]

Try the WDCR-SCCA autoxes around here... There's nothign that gets my adrenaline up like our high speed events.

They're really high-pucker more than they are high-speed.

EDIT: I'm not talking about how I drive it, I'm talking in general. Just figured I'd throw that in before one of you did.

Alex

[Plaz]

What I've found is that there are typically two lines that you'll get: The DE instructor line, and the race car driver line.

I've NEVER liked the DE line better than the race line.

I'd imagine there's no shortage of different opinions about the line to take through that long funky curve after the front straight at Lime Rock.

[The HACK]

One other "problem" I had was that my instructors had different ideas about what the best line was through some of the turns. My Saturday instructor really didn't like the line I took through one particular turn but my Sunday instructor said just the opposite. Argh!

They did that just to fuck with ya.

Different instructors will have slightly different preferences on how they approach a line. Often times instructors that came up through the BMWCCA ranks will teach you the "altered qualifying line", a safe, clean line through the track that will allow you to learn the basics and fundamentals safely and smoothly.

Then there's instructors that came up through the club racing ranks. They don't give a rats @ss if you take the qualifying line. They'll teach you the "race" line, which sometimes is very COUNTER INTUITIVE to beginners, instead of the safe, late apexes usually taught in the altered qualifying line, or the safe line, they'll let you experiment with a slightly more aggressive line and won't harp on you following the lines mandated by safety and the schools.

It is up to you to learn both lines and figure out why each line has it's advantages. I have yet to have two instructors in the same BMWCCA school teach me identical lines through a weekend.

[clyde]

Try the WDCR-SCCA autoxes around here... There's nothign that gets my adrenaline up like our high speed events.

They're really high-pucker more than they are high-speed.

EDIT: I'm not talking about how I drive it, I'm talking in general. Just figured I'd throw that in before one of you did.

Alex

I agree with the high-pucker, but last week was actually high speed (for an autox) too. A LOT of time over 50 and we were riding (not just bouncing) the limiter in second (68 MPH) for a bit.

[Pinecone]

One other "problem" I had was that my instructors had different ideas about what the best line was through some of the turns. My Saturday instructor really didn't like the line I took through one particular turn but my Sunday instructor said just the opposite. Argh!

They did that just to fuck with ya.

Different instructors will have slightly different preferences on how they approach a line. Often times instructors that came up through the BMWCCA ranks will teach you the "altered qualifying line", a safe, clean line through the track that will allow you to learn the basics and fundamentals safely and smoothly.

Then there's instructors that came up through the club racing ranks. They don't give a rats @ss if you take the qualifying line. They'll teach you the "race" line, which sometimes is very COUNTER INTUITIVE to beginners, instead of the safe, late apexes usually taught in the altered qualifying line, or the safe line, they'll let you experiment with a slightly more aggressive line and won't harp on you following the lines mandated by safety and the schools.

It is up to you to learn both lines and figure out why each line has it's advantages. I have yet to have two instructors in the same BMWCCA school teach me identical lines through a weekend.

That's why I recommend a commercial school first, then BMW CCA events to practice. At least you get several days of the same line and consistant learning experience, with professional instructors.

And some BMW CCA instructors are worth the time you spend listening to them. I had one at the Glen that was having me turn so late that the line through the corner was a striaght line after that, then he gave me trouble with turning the wheel back before the apex. But if you turn REALLY late, if you don't unwind the wheel, you will cross the curb at about 90 degrees, PRIOR to the apex. :)

Then after some time a school like Derek Daly with data acquisition is really nice to see what happens with different lines.

[nate]

I was very glad I was in the E30, and not the E46. I guess I could have felt comfortable in the E46, (in terms of not being nervous about recking it) but I probably would have had to drive less aggressively than I did.



I would have expected the opposite.

The E46 is just SO easy to drive fast. You can be completely ham-fisted and still find it hard to get in trouble.

Probably not the best for learning, but you can surely more aggressively and be safer.

[Nick M3]

I was very glad I was in the E30, and not the E46. I guess I could have felt comfortable in the E46, (in terms of not being nervous about recking it) but I probably would have had to drive less aggressively than I did.



I would have expected the opposite.

The E46 is just SO easy to drive fast. You can be completely ham-fisted and still find it hard to get in trouble.

Probably not the best for learning, but you can surely more aggressively and be safer.

Yeah... Right up until you pass that limit, at which point the suspension tries to kill you. Newbies in modern BMWs scare the crap out of me.

[PhilH]

Sure, the total fun is greater at a track day...
I thought that was a given, which is why I was surprised about rumatt's reaction. I suppose the first day at a HPDE can be a challenge trying to take everything in, but I was hooked after my first event and just wanted more.

Sadly, with two little kids, no track car and a relatively expensive daily driver, I'm on hiatus right now, but I can't wait to get back into it. I'm jealous of rumatt's opportunity to go to these events right now with the perfect car and it's hard to believe he may not go to any more... :scratch:

[nate]

Yeah... Right up until you pass that limit, at which point the suspension tries to kill you. Newbies in modern BMWs scare the crap out of me.

In an M3 or M5, maybe.

It is damn hard to fuck up in a standard E46.

[rumatt]

I go away for a few hours, and look what happens... :P

Phil: (hi by the way) I didn't mean to imply that I'm not going back. I just meant even if someone had no intention of doing it regularly, it's still worth going once. I will definitely do another school, and likely several more. But I do somewhat question what the point is once you become "good". Of course you can always get better, but as the learning hits the point of diminishing returns, the reality is that you're just driving in circles. :scratch:

Alex: "High pucker" :?

Plaz: You're 100% right. The line through the turns after the straight were the hardest. I really never got it down. When watching the instructor group, almost everyone took a slightly different line.

Nate: I didn't mean that the E30 is more confidence inspiring than the E46, or that it is easier to drive. I meant that I was at peace with the worst case scenario of writing off the E30, and that enabled me to relax and just drive. If I had the E46, all day I'd have been thinking, "holy cow.. if I go off on this corner, it could cost me $30K".

[nate]

Nate: I didn't mean that the E30 is more confidence inspiring than the E46, or that it is easier to drive. I meant that I was at peace with the worst case scenario of writing off the E30, and that enabled me to relax and just drive. If I had the E46, all day I'd have been thinking, "holy cow.. if I go off on this corner, it could cost me $30K".

Yea, but at least you would still be alive (probably) in the E46 ;)

[operknockity]

I go away for a few hours, and look what happens... :P

Phil: (hi by the way) I didn't mean to imply that I'm not going back. I just meant even if someone had no intention of doing it regularly, it's still worth going once. I will definitely do another school, and likely several more. But I do somewhat question what the point is once you become "good". Of course you can always get better, but as the learning hits the point of diminishing returns, the reality is that you're just driving in circles. :scratch:
That is when you move on to a school that is not so structured as the BMW CCA schools. Schools where they allow 2 or 3 wide down the straights and in the turns, open lapping without point-byes, learning the racing lines to defend your position, and running the course in the rain or snow :yikes: .
Alex: "High pucker" :?
Nice tight twisties, with off camber turns, in the rain. That's my idea of "high pucker"!!!
Nate: I didn't mean that the E30 is more confidence inspiring than the E46, or that it is easier to drive. I meant that I was at peace with the worst case scenario of writing off the E30, and that enabled me to relax and just drive. If I had the E46, all day I'd have been thinking, "holy cow.. if I go off on this corner, it could cost me $30K".
I think that I would have felt that way about my E46 if I had started before my car got crumpled. Since then, though, I am much more comfortable with the idea that it is just a car and can be replaced if need be. One thing that I was told way back when I first considered going to the schools was that if I wasn't able/comfortable with having to replace the car, then don't do the school. That doesn't mean throwing caution to the wind, but you also shouldn't be so worried that it interferes with the learning process.

I also wish I had an E30 for the classes (and as a beater). Mostly because with a less powerful car (and my hamster powered E46 counts here too), you really have to learn to be smooth or else you give up too much in the corners. With a higher power car, as a newbie, you probably won't learn as much since you can always just power out of a bad line rather than finesse your way through it.

[operknockity]

One other "problem" I had was that my instructors had different ideas about what the best line was through some of the turns. My Saturday instructor really didn't like the line I took through one particular turn but my Sunday instructor said just the opposite. Argh!

They did that just to fuck with ya.

Different instructors will have slightly different preferences on how they approach a line. Often times instructors that came up through the BMWCCA ranks will teach you the "altered qualifying line", a safe, clean line through the track that will allow you to learn the basics and fundamentals safely and smoothly.

Then there's instructors that came up through the club racing ranks. They don't give a rats @ss if you take the qualifying line. They'll teach you the "race" line, which sometimes is very COUNTER INTUITIVE to beginners, instead of the safe, late apexes usually taught in the altered qualifying line, or the safe line, they'll let you experiment with a slightly more aggressive line and won't harp on you following the lines mandated by safety and the schools.

It is up to you to learn both lines and figure out why each line has it's advantages. I have yet to have two instructors in the same BMWCCA school teach me identical lines through a weekend.
Unless you know more about the instructor corps out here (which you might since you've got many more schools under your belt than I), I don't know that they intentionally fuck with us that way. I'll have to corner Raffi or Sergio and get them to give me the straight dope on it though.

And I know that everyone has their own idea about the correct lines, school-approved-safe-line or racing line or whatever. My issue was more that my Saturday instructor wasn't helping me very much get to their line with pointers on what they thought I was doing wrong, nor considering that I might not like their line. And it just didn't jive with them thinking that this wasn't my first time on track. If they thought I was really a newbie, then they should have been more instructive. If they thought I had wasn't such a newbie, then they should have been a little less up-tight. Either way, my Saturday instructor wasn't as good as my Sunday instructor.

In the end, variety is the spice of life, and learning all the lines and why each is good is a good thing.

[Pinecone]

That is one of thinks I don't like about BMW CCA events for newbies. Teach A line, until the person understands how to drive that line, then work on different lines.

Also using THEIR cars, reduces the pucker factor a LOT. ANd most commericial schools either don't charge for damage during basic schools, or offer damage "insurance", ie pay a reasonably small fee and no damages costs to you.

[rumatt]

Whoa, check out my tires. I discovered it while putting my stock brake pads back on today. Is this normal? Did they melt?

These are 195/60/14 Falken Azenis that had 2/10 - 3/10 before the day started.

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/files/dcp_0566_815.jpg

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/files/dcp_0562_854.jpg

[Plaz]

Whoa, check out my tires. I discovered it while putting my stock brake pads back on today. Is this normal? Did they melt?

These are 195/60/14 Falken Azenis that had 2/10 - 3/10 before the day started.

Looks like you took the Chewing Gum Parkway through Candyland on the way home. :lol:

[nate]

Just bits of other people's tires.

Nothing to worry about.

[clyde]

Yeah, it's kind of the like the change bowl by cash registers. Take a little leave a little.

[rumatt]

Cool, thanks. Interestingly, on the right front tire, the strip was right down the center of the tire. The track is almost all right turns, so I'm not surprised to see a difference, but I wouldn't have guessed it would be in the middle. :?

[dan]

Yeah, it's kind of the like the change bowl by cash registers. Take a little leave a little.

those are tip jars! :shock:

[BahnBaum]

Yeah, it's kind of the like the change bowl by cash registers. Take a little leave a little.

those are tip jars! :shock:

:lol:


Alex

[clyde]

Yeah, it's kind of the like the change bowl by cash registers. Take a little leave a little.

those are tip jars! :shock:

I thought the ones that said "tips" were tip jars and the ones that said "pennies" were not tips.

maybe you just frequent lower quality establishments than I do (which is really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hard to believe).