View Full Version : Somebody shoot me
Not literally, of course (in this day and age, I want to include this disclaimer).
Anyway...
I was driving in to work this morning and, as I passed an E65, I thought to myself, "It's really not bad looking."
:banghead:
I immediately recoiled at my own thought and set about pondering how I could have had it.
I am convinced that it's a direct result of the vehicles that have come out since, mostly from BMW, but others as well. There's just so much ugly out there now that the original fugli-mobile just doesn't look all that bad by comparison.
I mean, it's a striking, handsome car next to the E60 or Z4.
jpgurl
04-22-2005, 11:18 AM
There's just so much ugly out there now that the original fugli-mobile just doesn't look all that bad by comparison.
Kind of like being the best-looking waitress at a Denny's. It's all relative.
I mean look:
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/years/2003/745i.jpg http://www.bmwworld.com/images/cars/5er/10157_250.jpg
I mean look:
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/years/2003/745i.jpg http://www.bmwworld.com/images/cars/5er/10157_250.jpg
I dunno; I still think that the E60 looks better than the E65 by a whole bunch.
The Z4 is still the worst, though.
I mean look:
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/years/2003/745i.jpg http://www.bmwworld.com/images/cars/5er/10157_250.jpg
E60 is MUCH more attractive. I'll take Dame Edna over Mongoloid any day.
That being said, the face (and ass) lift for the E65 really makes a huge difference. Was it one of the new ones you saw this morning?
I mean look:
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/years/2003/745i.jpg http://www.bmwworld.com/images/cars/5er/10157_250.jpg
E60 is MUCH more attractive. I'll take Dame Edna over Mongoloid any day.
That being said, the face (and ass) lift for the E65 really makes a huge difference. Was it one of the new ones you saw this morning?
I think it was an old one. In silver. Sport pkg wheels though.
And call em whatever you want, but even the older E65 is MUCH more attractive than the E60, IMO.
I mean look:
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/years/2003/745i.jpg http://www.bmwworld.com/images/cars/5er/10157_250.jpg
E60 is MUCH more attractive. I'll take Dame Edna over Mongoloid any day.
That being said, the face (and ass) lift for the E65 really makes a huge difference. Was it one of the new ones you saw this morning?
I think it was an old one. In silver. Sport pkg wheels though.
And call em whatever you want, but even the older E65 is MUCH more attractive than the E60, IMO.
I don't mind the rear of the car much any more. It has kind of grown on me. The front of the car and the interior is a WHOLE different story.
But GOOD GOD I bet the 550i 6spd is going to be one FAST car. :devcool:
clyde
04-22-2005, 12:19 PM
I was driving in to work this morning and, as I passed an E65, I thought to myself, "It's really not bad looking."
:banghead:
I immediately recoiled at my own thought and set about pondering how I could have had it.
And so it begins (http://forums.carmudgeons.com/viewtopic.php?p=56512&#56512)
:lol:
FWIW, I suggested that this moment would come in the early days on the fest when the air was thick with anti-E65 design sentiment. Design is a product of its time. It's still too early to tell, but Bangle may have actually taken us where we didn't want to go.
I've said this many times... I think the general design shapes of the e60, e65 and even the Z4 are really not that bad. Its the specific elements that make them look odd and polarizing (and incongruous)
e65
Good: overall shape is an evolution of traditional BMW (although looks 15-20% larger than an e38). The overall shape has a presence that the e38 didn't have (which is good for its target market). Concept of i-Drive.
Bad: Eyebrows, headlights not aligned with grille (fixed in facelift), Bangle Butt, dash design going away from driver orientation, i-Drive being a pain in the ass to use
e60
Good: overall shape -- moves away from some traditional BMW hallmarks (the cut line changes to a shoulder line), but I actually think its a decent shape and is an evolution, harking back somewhat to the 2002. From the rear, its obviously a BMW.
Bad: Dame Edna headlights are just frickin ugly, grille shape is too Pontiac (and way too rounded). The way the trunk cut line from the side lines up with the tailight line and the slope of the rear window ends up looking really strange -- makes it look like the whole trunk will just slide off (from a design standpoint I understand why they did it -- its "interesting", but just looks wrong in the end). Dash/cockpit shape much worse than the e65 -- and why is the Nav DVD slot get such a visable place on the dash (its not like you're going to switch Nav discs that often).
Z4:
Good: I really like the how the fender line swings down the door, and then curves up over the rear wheel arches -- a very good job of emuliting the lines of classic British roadsters, but with a modern shape. The dash layout, while not driver oriented, is a good design (especially with the Individual "Nautical" package)
Bad: entire front end grille/headlights is just ugly (which also makes the 6er ugly and makes me worry since the rumors of the e90 coupe suggest it will be also be used). The "Z" slash on the sides is not needed and detracts from the design. The duck tail in the trunck is just odd.
Overall, the poor execution of the details ends up making the overall designs ugly.
It all boils down to this...
"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
They are ALL fugly.
BUT, and I have said this before, they all (within thier hideousness) have a very muscular, aggressive stance.
I've said this many times... I think the general design shapes of the e60, e65 and even the Z4 are really not that bad. Its the specific elements that make them look odd and polarizing (and incongruous)
e65
Good: overall shape is an evolution of traditional BMW (although looks 15-20% larger than an e38). The overall shape has a presence that the e38 didn't have (which is good for its target market). Concept of i-Drive.
Bad: Eyebrows, headlights not aligned with grille (fixed in facelift), Bangle Butt, dash design going away from driver orientation, i-Drive being a pain in the ass to use
e60
Good: overall shape -- moves away from some traditional BMW hallmarks (the cut line changes to a shoulder line), but I actually think its a decent shape and is an evolution, harking back somewhat to the 2002. From the rear, its obviously a BMW.
Bad: Dame Edna headlights are just frickin ugly, grille shape is too Pontiac (and way too rounded). The way the trunk cut line from the side lines up with the tailight line and the slope of the rear window ends up looking really strange -- makes it look like the whole trunk will just slide off (from a design standpoint I understand why they did it -- its "interesting", but just looks wrong in the end). Dash/cockpit shape much worse than the e65 -- and why is the Nav DVD slot get such a visable place on the dash (its not like you're going to switch Nav discs that often).
Z4:
Good: I really like the how the fender line swings down the door, and then curves up over the rear wheel arches -- a very good job of emuliting the lines of classic British roadsters, but with a modern shape. The dash layout, while not driver oriented, is a good design (especially with the Individual "Nautical" package)
Bad: entire front end grille/headlights is just ugly (which also makes the 6er ugly and makes me worry since the rumors of the e90 coupe suggest it will be also be used). The "Z" slash on the sides is not needed and detracts from the design. The duck tail in the trunck is just odd.
Overall, the poor execution of the details ends up making the overall designs ugly.
Very good overall impressions. Most of your comments are spot on.
On a side note, I really like what the face list did for the E65. The interior on the other hand, as with most new BMW's, still sucks. Put the gear selector back on the floor please. :P
BMWs always grow on you, imo. I like the 7 a lot more now than I did when it was new.
Surprisingly enough, I like the 5 less every time I see it. Mostly b/c I think about the goofy interior, I think.
The HACK
04-22-2005, 03:15 PM
Rag on the Z4 all you want, but it is by a very far and wide margin THE best handling BMW currently in production (and that includes the E46 M3).
Took it to Buttonwillow on Tuesday and it handled better than my 323Ci with all the trick suspension work, it handled better than SergioK's 323Ci with PSS-9s, it was faster than most instructor's E36 and E46 M3s around the track, and boy if it had a set of R-Comps it probably would have chased down some 996 Turbos (did I mention I got a point by from an experienced driver in a Ferrari F360? The one that used to be owned by Michael Schumaker?) in group A.
The 3.0 is HELLA fast on the track. If they fix the electronic steering boost, and if I can get a simple bolt on roll-cage for it, this is by FAR the best track car BMW makes right now.
Roadstergal
04-22-2005, 03:51 PM
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/snooze.gif
Mathew
04-22-2005, 04:22 PM
And call em whatever you want, but even the older E65 is MUCH more attractive than the E60, IMO.
IMO, the E65 looks a lot more like a BMW than the E60 does.
Jason C
04-22-2005, 05:35 PM
I was driving in to work this morning and, as I passed an E65, I thought to myself, "It's really not bad looking."
:banghead:
I immediately recoiled at my own thought and set about pondering how I could have had it.
And so it begins (http://forums.carmudgeons.com/viewtopic.php?p=56512&#56512)
:lol:
I read TD's first post, and I immediately thought back to the same thread. :lol:
lemming
04-22-2005, 06:37 PM
car for car, if i was a complete metro/poseur, i'd opt for m-b or audi any day over any vehicle from BMW in any class of car.
C class (appearance) & new a4 > 3 series.
new E > new a6 > 5 series.
new a8 > new S >> 7 series.
Roadstergal
04-22-2005, 06:50 PM
Although I would never get one, the M-Bs of the gen my dad owns is IMO the only one that looked good, and IMO because they looked like what they were - big, heavy, comfy limo types. The current M-Bs look frog-eyed; they look like a committee decision of old farts on what the youth of today would consider aerodynamic-appearing. Audis look like VWs that thought a few exterior differentiating points would make them look higher-class and instead just make them look odd, like Madonna putting a mole on her lip.
rumatt
04-22-2005, 07:12 PM
Kind of like being the best-looking waitress at a Denny's. It's all relative.
:lol: :lol:
lemming
04-22-2005, 08:05 PM
Although I would never get one, the M-Bs of the gen my dad owns is IMO the only one that looked good, and IMO because they looked like what they were - big, heavy, comfy limo types. The current M-Bs look frog-eyed; they look like a committee decision of old farts on what the youth of today would consider aerodynamic-appearing. Audis look like VWs that thought a few exterior differentiating points would make them look higher-class and instead just make them look odd, like Madonna putting a mole on her lip.
point being, since most, even the europress who love the 3 series, say that the new e90 is even more "refined" and "competent" as opposed to "involving", the BMW driving advantage is slim to none so it's down to subjective criteria.
i can out-subjectify your subjective comments, but since you cannot point to a quantitative superior BMW dynamic driving experience, it means looks now sell cars and i bet that going that route long term, BMW loses big time.
clyde
04-22-2005, 08:48 PM
Rag on the Z4 all you want, but it is by a very far and wide margin THE best handling BMW currently in production (and that includes the E46 M3).
I agree completely.
I also don't think that it looks like ass.
lemming
04-23-2005, 07:56 AM
Rag on the Z4 all you want, but it is by a very far and wide margin THE best handling BMW currently in production (and that includes the E46 M3).
I agree completely.
I also don't think that it looks like ass.
the e60, the e65 are the best handlers in their class also and i agree that the z4 is the best handling BMW overall.
it still does not speak to their styling, however.
and it does not tell us much about the e90 and how well it will handle --likely inferior to the z4.
i like the e65 update quite a bit. the most objectionable aspect (trunk) is much better and i like the car now. if it was my choice, i'd still opt for an STS-V, but it's all in the realm of subjectivity in the 7-series class. no one actually buys those size cars for dynamics, exactly.
rumatt
04-23-2005, 08:21 AM
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/snooze.gif
What she said.
Roadstergal
04-23-2005, 12:50 PM
quantitative superior BMW dynamic driving experience
An experience is, by nature, subjective.
My Miata gave me a better driving experience than the E36 M3s I've driven - and again, that's totally subjective. I wouldn't buy anything as heavy as any of the cars you've listed and call it a dynamic driving experience. And to some, a Chrysler 300 gives all of the driving excitement they could ever want. There's no objectivity there.
(Or in the difference between "competent" and "involving.")
clyde
04-23-2005, 01:29 PM
I wouldn't buy anything as heavy as any of the cars you've listed and call it a dynamic driving experience.
One part of the equation defining momentum is mass. Mass can lead to some interesting dynmaics.
If I were you and had to repeat that sentence in the future, I'd phrase it as "a pleasing dynamic" or similar. :D
Roadstergal
04-23-2005, 08:37 PM
Ooh baby... give me some of those pleasing dynamics...
lemming
04-24-2005, 10:20 AM
as far as TD's growing to like the e65 --that's still a problem to me. i really don't want to have to learn to like a car design. i prefer, personally, the car designs that are universally beautiful from the second you see it. to me, that is aston martin or Ford GT; i.e. it can vary but the consistent thread is beautiful design.
now to the tangential issue: i'll lay down a line in the sand and say that by the time we get the e90 330i in the US, it will lose in comparison tests to a 298hp 6 speed G35 at least half of the time; it may even lose out to the FSI 3.1 litre a4 or the C350 6speed. what am i basing this on? well. i'm basing it on people's opinions who drive cars for a living and then write about them. and when both the UK writers and US writers agree, it's a bit frightening. both sides were right about the styling of the new BMWs and car sales demonstrate that "they" and "we" were correct. the e65 sales sagged and the z4 sales are abyssmal and those two are the epitome of the Bangle design language. now the unified early view coming out for the e90 is that it is more "competent" (read: Lexus) than "fun".
Roadstergal
04-24-2005, 01:51 PM
z4 sales are abyssmal
As abysmal as your spelling? :P
lemming
04-24-2005, 01:54 PM
z4 sales are abyssmal
As abysmal as your spelling? :P
WORSE, actually.
:lol:
i believe the official term in the industry is "sales fell off of a cliff".
Roadstergal
04-24-2005, 02:00 PM
Whenever I checked, they've been consistantly higher than the corresponding Z3 sales. That's changed? :dunno:
lemming
04-24-2005, 05:11 PM
Whenever I checked, they've been consistantly higher than the corresponding Z3 sales. That's changed? :dunno:
last time i checked it was down 43% YTD, but that was about a month ago and the trunk money has persisted throughput the entire period since this winter, i believe.
lemming
04-24-2005, 05:23 PM
OFFICIAL sales numbers:
3 series: march 05 7555 (04: 10,044 units)
5 series: 3947 (04: 3873 units)
6 series: 871 (04: 1042 units)
7 series: 1110 (04: 1418 units)
z4: 991 (04: 1330 units)
the entire industry trend isn't all that great, but the only vehicle that is "new" that is doing better than last year is the e60.
Jason C
04-25-2005, 08:45 AM
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/ly/images/05750_1.jpg
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/ly/images/05750_6.jpg
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/ly/images/05750_4.jpg
It doesn't look as nasty as it did before (post-face-lift E46, anyone?) but the electronics alone would be enough to make me stay away as a prospective customer.
Oh, and the interior still looks like ass.
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