Hand motions (split from autox school thread)

[Nick M3]

I've found that on track I'm smoother without unnecessary shuffling. And when you're really cookin' on an autox course, I don't think you've got time to shuffle. Especially not a balls to the wall WOT course like Lee designed for us this weekend. :D

[JST]

I've found that on track I'm smoother without unnecessary shuffling. And when you're really cookin' on an autox course, I don't think you've got time to shuffle. Especially not a balls to the wall WOT course like Lee designed for us this weekend. :D

Not that I'm fast enough, or have good enough technique, to really provide much in the way of insight, but I agree with Nick--when I am on course, I don't have time to shuffle. With cars that don't have power assisted steering, shuffling might be a bigger deal, since it allows you to keep both hands on the wheel at all times and thus exert more force. With modern BMWs, though, the steering effort is light enough that if you have to steer with one hand for a second you are fine. There are times when I've driven half the course with one hand because I was concentrating so hard on the line that I forgot to take my hand off the shifter, but then again I also once did an entire course in third gear, so I'm kind of an idiot. :eeps:

I've never had a problem with getting my arms tangled up, either, which is one of the other things that shuffle steering is supposed to prevent.

[bren]

One thing I was subconsciously doing was letting the wheel slip through my hands back to center.....I've found it much easier to keep the car pointed the right direction when I don't do that. :speechle:

[Nick M3]

The other thing with shuffle steering is that a lot of people forget that it just isn't going to cut it when you've got oversteer. Hand over hand, or loop, generally. Take your pick.

[Plaz]

I think the logic behind my instructor's "no shuffle" mandate was that if you don't shuffle, there's never any doubt in your mind where the front wheels are pointed... a good thing if you end up sideways. The tenth of a second it might take for you to figure it out could be the difference between bad and very bad.

[rumatt]

Keep in mind that the turns in autox are often much sharper. Plaz's "no shuffle" teaching may have meant that he was shuffling when it wasn't really necessary given the cornering conditions.

[Plaz]

Keep in mind that the turns in autox are often much sharper. Plaz's "no shuffle" teaching may have meant that he was shuffling when it wasn't really necessary given the cornering conditions.

Oh, it definitely wasn't necessary. The sharpest turn on that course was a 90° turn coming off the oval into the infield, where the track was very wide.

[Nick M3]

I think the logic behind my instructor's "no shuffle" mandate was that if you don't shuffle, there's never any doubt in your mind where the front wheels are pointed... a good thing if you end up sideways. The tenth of a second it might take for you to figure it out could be the difference between bad and very bad.

I disagree. When you're countersteering, you know damned well which way the wheel has to go. Doesn't really matter which way the wheel is actually pointed at the time.

[BahnBaum]

Interesting... at the BMWCCA track school I attended out in CA, the instructor kept scolding me for shuffle-steering... I've since largely broken the habit.

Little OT, but still steering related.

Son #3 just started his driver's ed classes. Seems that hands at 9 and 3 (or 10 and 2) on the wheel, as well as hand over hand steering, is no longer an acceptable method of driving.

Because of air bags and arm injuries, they're now teaching hand position of 8 and 4 and shuffle steering. After what I taught him, and what he's been practicing for the past couple months, he's all wrapped around the axle right now.

Alex

[Nick M3]

Interesting... at the BMWCCA track school I attended out in CA, the instructor kept scolding me for shuffle-steering... I've since largely broken the habit.

Little OT, but still steering related.

Son #3 just started his driver's ed classes. Seems that hands at 9 and 3 (or 10 and 2) on the wheel, as well as hand over hand steering, is no longer an acceptable method of driving.

Because of air bags and arm injuries, they're now teaching hand position of 8 and 4 and shuffle steering. After what I taught him, and what he's been practicing for the past couple months, he's all wrapped around the axle right now.

Alex

Yeah, and all that is totally lame.

Actually, though, 8 and 4 was invented to reduce the driver's leverage on the wheel, thereby decreasing the risk of roll over incidents.

[Roadstergal]

Because of air bags and arm injuries

What air bags? :twisted:

I avoided shuffle steering, but with a small aftermarket wheel and a tight steering ratio, it's a lot easier. Many cars have an absurd amount of steering wheel travel.

[Nick M3]

Because of air bags and arm injuries

What air bags? :twisted:

I avoided shuffle steering, but with a small aftermarket wheel and a tight steering ratio, it's a lot easier. Many cars have an absurd amount of steering wheel travel.

I was trying to get my students to hand over hand on the skidpad Saturday. They didn't want to. :p

[Roadstergal]

I like the new title of this thread. :mad: :twisted: :flipoff: :)

[clyde]

diddling hand jive

[rumatt]

What air bags? :twisted:

We know you don't have airbags. Not your style. :speechle:

[Pinecone]

I disagree. When you're countersteering, you know damned well which way the wheel has to go. Doesn't really matter which way the wheel is actually pointed at the time.

The problem comes if you go beyond a little counter steer (like on the verge of losing it), you need to get the wheels to straight ahead to catch the car or you go back the other way.

Shuffle steering loses straight ahead for you. You still turn the wheel the same way to counter steer though.

First time I did the Roos school one student in the Slide Car lost steering wheel hand position, and it got to be GREAT fun trying to catch the car once it started going back and forth. Not great fun as I was in the back seat at the time. :)

[Pinecone]

Yes, 8 and 4 is very lame. Also the arguement they use against 10 and 2 is lame.

My thing is this, in your years of driving, how many times do you turn a corner? How many times do you have to make qucik in corner corrections? How many times have you set off the air bag?

Less car control means more air bag deployments.

[Nick M3]

I disagree. When you're countersteering, you know damned well which way the wheel has to go. Doesn't really matter which way the wheel is actually pointed at the time.

The problem comes if you go beyond a little counter steer (like on the verge of losing it), you need to get the wheels to straight ahead to catch the car or you go back the other way.

Shuffle steering loses straight ahead for you. You still turn the wheel the same way to counter steer though.

First time I did the Roos school one student in the Slide Car lost steering wheel hand position, and it got to be GREAT fun trying to catch the car once it started going back and forth. Not great fun as I was in the back seat at the time. :)

Finding center has never been a problem for me. Even hand over handing. :p

[Pinecone]

Talking about shuffle steering, NO sense of straight ahead.

Also M cars have more caster, meaning they tend to self center better.