NCC Guys: How was the Evo school? [Archive]

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JST

10-25-2003, 07:10 PM

You missed a decent course today at Bowie; fairly fast, not very tight (not Kevin's work). Lots of fun, etc, but I'm sure you guys had more.

clyde

10-25-2003, 08:26 PM

You missed a decent course today at Bowie; fairly fast, not very tight (not Kevin's work). Lots of fun, etc, but I'm sure you guys had more.

I am going to reserve comment on the Evo school until after the Phase II tomorrow.

bren

10-25-2003, 11:01 PM

I am going to reserve comment on the Evo school until after the Phase II tomorrow.
It's that good huh? :?

JST, sorry I missed you at the autox today....I thought the course was great, Al did a good job. Did you stay long enough to see the cops shooting radar? They were clocking people at almost 60MPH coming up onto the upper section, which seems pretty fast considering how rough it was right there. I was working that part of the course and almost everyone was lifting their inside tire(s)

clyde

10-25-2003, 11:24 PM

Al did a good job. Where did Al finish in S1? Anyone know?

Nick M3

10-25-2003, 11:46 PM

I think it's safe to say that both of us would have benefitted a LOT more from Phase I a year or more ago. Whatever everyone else says, Phsae I is a kick ass way to immerse yourself into autoxing. It's definitely helpful no matter what your skill level, but I know one of my biggest reasons for taking the course is to get access to Phase III next spring.

bren

10-26-2003, 12:01 AM

Al did a good job. Where did Al finish in S1? Anyone know?
I didn't stay long enough to see him run...he layed out a fun course is what I meant.

SpaceMonk

10-26-2003, 12:49 AM

I think it's safe to say that both of us would have benefitted a LOT more from Phase I a year or more ago. Whatever everyone else says, Phase I is a kick ass way to immerse yourself into autoxing. It's definitely helpful no matter what your skill level, but I know one of my biggest reasons for taking the course is to get access to Phase III next spring.
Eh. I think you mean the Challege school. Phase III doesn't really excite me.

JST

10-26-2003, 09:41 AM

Al did a good job. Where did Al finish in S1? Anyone know?
I didn't stay long enough to see him run...he layed out a fun course is what I meant.

He actually ran first heat. He was turning 55s, IIRC. Don't know where that is in the finishing order, though. Sorry. FTD when I left was a 51.xx. I ran a 57.7xx.

My last run I got a little sideways through that long sweeper that you're talking about, Bren. Not sure how fast I was going, but close to redline in 2nd gear.

My 3d run I really overcooked it coming into the small skidpad; was thinking about going fast rather than the course. Despite having to brake almost to a full stop to make the gate, it was still nearly my fastest run; the rest of the run was outstanding. As I finished, Kevin said something like "57.9x, but oh what might have been..." :wutblau:

Nick M3

10-26-2003, 05:34 PM

Quickie Phase II review:

FUCKING AWESOME!

In Phase I, they introduce the concept of autocrossing and looking ahead. In Phase II, they really teach you HOW to look ahead and HOW to plan your way through the course.

I can't wait to do a Challenge school in the spring.

SpaceMonk

10-27-2003, 11:34 AM

That's all we get?

clyde

10-27-2003, 12:20 PM

That's all we get?

Had to get caught up at work first (I was out Thursday and Friday after having my widom teeth pulled on Thursday).

This past weekend I attended the Phase I and Phase II Evolution (http://www.autocross.com/evolution) autocross schools. I don’t want to retread too much of this thread (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36108) where SpaceMonkey, LarryN and centopah described things pretty well, but I’ll offer my impressions.

My initial reaction to Phase I was that it was a waste of money for me. From the beginning of the day to the end of the day I dropped a significant amount of time on my runs, though. At first I dismissed the time improvement to increased familiarity with the course and more heat in the tires/pavement. As I reflected on it overnight comparing my segment times and thinking about what comments the instructors had about my driving the more inclined I am to think that I actually did learn quite a bit of very subtle stuff that will be helpful to me. There was just no singular “a-ha” moment where everything came together. It was all about very, very minor stuff that I should be doing just a wee bit differently (like “turn in 12-18 inches later for this corner and 6-12 inches earlier for this other one” kind of stuff). While that turn in stuff will probably never exactly apply to another corner that I see, that experience showed me how “right” and “almost right” feel from the seat of the pants.

Everyone else in the class really did seem to have their eyes opened in Phase I to the two main areas the course covers: Smooth inputs and an introduction to looking ahead. I think that those that will reap the greatest rewards from Phase I are those that have a little experience, but don’t find themselves improving from event to event; those that understand the basic concepts but just can’t seem to get their times down low even to be competitive in their classes. The people like that in my Phase I group saw the most dramatic drops in their times. If you have some experience, are already smooth with the controls and are familiar with looking ahead, what you pick up in Phase I will likely be more subtle. Now, after having Phase II as well, I can see Phase I being a worthwhile course to take as a refresher at some point in the future. I think that I will want to take it again if I find myself at a plateau where I know that there is room left for improvement, but I’m not sure where/how. IOW, my original impression of and reaction to Phase I was wrong. It was definitely worth the money for me. (Bonehead move of the day: leaving DSC on for two runs.)

Phase II was a whole different story. The comments made by my first instructor of the day after my first run were absolutely amazing. It was like a switch had been thrown, a door had been opened and the light bulb went on. If I had any remaining doubts about the value of Phase I, I didn’t care anymore because what Sam Strano said to me after that first run was worth the cost of both courses combined. And it only got better from there. The focus of Phase II is developing better look ahead skills and getting yourself to think about the section beyond the one that you’re looking at. There was a day and night difference for me from the beginning to the end of the day. Even though the Phase II course is not timed, I know that I dropped a lot time from the beginning to end of each exercise because I was getting to each next turn with a lot more speed and carrying a lot more speed out of each turn. (Bonehead move of the day: Thinking that I wanted to downshift while braking for a long, fast sweeper with an instructor in the car, putting the shifter into neutral, pausing and then putting it back into second.)

Overall, I am really happy that I took both Phases and I highly recommend both of them to anyone that would like to improve their autocross skills. I can only hope to remember and apply what I was exposed to to real life events without an instructor yelling in my ear.

On that note, the instructors in my classes were all first rate teachers/coaches and seemed like genuinely good people. My Phase I class was taught by Dean Sapp, Jinx Jordan and Marc Dana. My Phase II class was taught by Sam Strano and Tim Aro. All five of them know their shit like there’s no tomorrow and are absolutely great at conveying their knowledge to others.

SpaceMonk

10-27-2003, 01:36 PM

Good stuff. I had Jinx Jordan for both my I & II schools. Very nice guy. If Marc Dana's the guy that owns the Honda dealership in Florida, I had him too.

It's really interesting hearing similiar impressions and re-evaluated impressions about Phase I. Even though I had only done a handful of autocrosses before my Evolution schools this year, I also found what I picked up was more subtle. And I know others up here were even more initially disappointed than I was with Phase I. But after more reflection, you do pick up many little things. And Phase II really does show you the WHYS of looking ahead; really hammers it home.

But to pick one for a refresher, I'll probably also pick Phase I. In fact, next April I'll probably end up doing a Phase I and Challenge school.

JST

10-27-2003, 02:32 PM

Phase II was a whole different story. The comments made by my first instructor of the day after my first run were absolutely amazing. It was like a switch had been thrown, a door had been opened and the light bulb went on. If I had any remaining doubts about the value of Phase I, I didn’t care anymore because what Sam Strano said to me after that first run was worth the cost of both courses combined. And it only got better from there.

I am frankly terrified of what happens when one of the fastest guys at our events has a lightbulb go on and a door open. Now all you need to do is get a Z06 and go to nationals...

I take it that Phase I is a necessary step prior to taking Phase II. That seems like a shame, given the relative merits of the two courses as you've described them. I'm sure that there are a lot of people (speaking for myself, anyway) that only start to get interested in a "serious" school after already having learned the basics of autocrossing.

Nick M3

10-27-2003, 04:10 PM

IMHO, the Phase I requirement is a very good thing. That fact of the matter is that Phase I lays down an important foundation to work off of in Phase II.

Plus, Phase II would suffer because far too many people (myself included) would have skipped Phase I and gone straight on to Phase II.

bren

10-27-2003, 05:46 PM

Quickie Phase II review:

F_ING AWESOME!

In Phase I, they introduce the concept of autocrossing and looking ahead. In Phase II, they really teach you HOW to look ahead and HOW to plan your way through the course.

I can't wait to do a Challenge school in the spring.
Now this is the response I was looking for.

Do we know that they will be offering this school again in the spring?

clyde

10-27-2003, 06:13 PM

I am frankly terrified of what happens when one of the fastest guys at our events has a lightbulb go on and a door open. Now all you need to do is get a Z06 and go to nationals...

If he's really lucky, he gets just a little quicker and starts challenging a certain E36 328i at the local BMW club events. paranoid:

I take it that Phase I is a necessary step prior to taking Phase II. That seems like a shame, given the relative merits of the two courses as you've described them. I'm sure that there are a lot of people (speaking for myself, anyway) that only start to get interested in a "serious" school after already having learned the basics of autocrossing.

Yes, Phase I is a requirement for Phase II. I really wouldn't characterize Phase I as a "basics" school. If that's what my description made it sound like, I did a poor job. The NCC autocross school is a basics school. Phase I is way beyond that. Phase I takes what you may already know, or think that you know, and starts to apply it to a very short, very technical course. For the vast majority of people there, I think this is going to be a huge help...and these are people that already know how to get around a course. The more I think about it, the more valuable I think it is to me. For the past couple months, I've really been feeling like I've hit a brick wall and not been improving. Like I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. The things that I think I picked up in the Phase I school wasn't about what I was doing wrong, but what I can do that's more right...and how to tell them apart. I beleive that what I picked up will help my mechanics at the next event. If it gives me half of the percentage of improvement that I made in my times in the Phase I school I would be very happy.

Phase II just starts a whole new chapter on the process.

JST

10-27-2003, 08:16 PM

I am frankly terrified of what happens when one of the fastest guys at our events has a lightbulb go on and a door open. Now all you need to do is get a Z06 and go to nationals...

If he's really lucky, he gets just a little quicker and starts challenging a certain E36 328i at the local BMW club events. paranoid:

I take it that Phase I is a necessary step prior to taking Phase II. That seems like a shame, given the relative merits of the two courses as you've described them. I'm sure that there are a lot of people (speaking for myself, anyway) that only start to get interested in a "serious" school after already having learned the basics of autocrossing.

Interesting. If they offer it again, I will definitely sign up; this time it was just too close to many other trips.

Yes, Phase I is a requirement for Phase II. I really wouldn't characterize Phase I as a "basics" school. If that's what my description made it sound like, I did a poor job. The NCC autocross school is a basics school. Phase I is way beyond that. Phase I takes what you may already know, or think that you know, and starts to apply it to a very short, very technical course. For the vast majority of people there, I think this is going to be a huge help...and these are people that already know how to get around a course. The more I think about it, the more valuable I think it is to me. For the past couple months, I've really been feeling like I've hit a brick wall and not been improving. Like I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. The things that I think I picked up in the Phase I school wasn't about what I was doing wrong, but what I can do that's more right...and how to tell them apart. I beleive that what I picked up will help my mechanics at the next event. If it gives me half of the percentage of improvement that I made in my times in the Phase I school I would be very happy.

Phase II just starts a whole new chapter on the process.

operknockity

10-27-2003, 09:03 PM

Do we know that they will be offering this school again in the spring?
This thread got me interested in taking the Phase I school here in SoCal in December.

Here is the Proposed 2004 Calendar (http://autocross.com/cgibin/view2004.cgi?Done)

bren

10-27-2003, 09:08 PM

JST

10-27-2003, 09:13 PM

clyde

10-27-2003, 10:04 PM

If WDCR can get the lot for an extra weekend in the spring, they will probably run some more schools.