View Full Version : Back to back: Elise vs Cayman S
Well, separated by a 20 minute drive to the P-car stealership.
First the Elise: In a word, the car is just cool. Looks very exotic, sounds great for a 4-cyl, gets lots of attention, and feels special. On the latter, the sports suspension is very stiff. That didn't bother me on most broken roads, but when you hit a true pothole, holy crap it feels hard and it sounds like you just damaged the car. The upside is that this car redefines directness and feedback - though interestingly it is very numb on center. The 330i felt totally Lincoln Towncar after the drive - amazing to see (feel). The other thing you immediately notice is that your left leg is permanently against the left wheel well. Somehow I got used to this and it stopped bothering me. Also the shifter has unexpectedly long throws and a fairly vague gate. I had trouble finding 2nd. Things grew easier over time, but never felt great. A bummer was that the hardtop was on and the way it wraps down on the sides to meet the windows gives you pretty shitty visibility. The biggest downer is the actual performance. The car was spanking new and I was told to keep it under 6krpm - and I obliged. Now, I know that the fun is supposed to start after 6krpm, but still, it felt at best ZHP fast sub-6krpm. I found an empty parking lot and did a skidpad test, and while impressive, didn't seem all that much better than mid-engined P-car.
How to summarize? My best attempt is to say it feels loud, uncomfortable, etc in a way (I'm guessing) a weekend vintage car might. So while it sounds like that's a bad thing, it can be considered cool. Nobody buys/drives them because of the comfort or even the performance, but because they are special and cool. The ace in the Elise's pocket of course is that it does have good performance, it's just very hard to find the limits on the street without sounding or looking like an ass or at least calling a lot of attention - which is not good for cops, I'd guess. So in the end it's a lot of bark without much bite. But it's impossible to undermine the extreme coolness of the car (and I drove a boring-as-fuck grey one). If I had easy access to (or at least made the time to go to) a track or committed to doing autox (both possible), it would make a lot more sense.
The Cayman S is like a refined and subdued Elise. Very comfortable with performance at your fingertips. It doesn't punish you and just does what it's told. We all know the rest: great brakes, smooth & strong engine, sweet handling, good clutch and shifter, etc. The bottom line is that the Cayman is much faster in the setting it would be driven most. It allows you to relax if you wish, and it feels more expensive. It's like an Elise in a tux.
Conclusion? I dunno. Well, I do know one thing. In a nice sunny day like today, I felt like an ass driving a coupe (that doesn't even have a sunroof). If I didn't have to drive kids to work everyday and could have one as a DD, no doubt, I'd take the Cayman. But for what it is, I think it would be silly for me not to take a Boxster even if I give up a bit of rigidity in the process.
So which one, Elise or 987S? If they cost the same and if they depreciated the same, it's a no-brainer, I'd the the P-car. But as it stands, the Cayman S or 3.4L 987S are 8-10K more and probably bound to depreciate more. But I also can't shake the feeling that the P-car would be too much like my 330i. Maybe this is the result of driving the Cayman instead of a Boxster with the top down. And perhaps more interestingly, a cheaper (Elise money) 3.2L Boxster S.
The Elise is nuts, totally different, wild, sexy, gets tons of attention. The P-car is the safe, can't go wrong choice. I'll leave it to some of the better writers here to make the appropriate girl analogy.;)
I told a few guys at work and they think I'm retarded for not just jumping on an Elise. Their giddyness reflects mine when I think about the Elise, which makes me think I should just go for it since this is what this experiment is for.
OTOH, I know my wife thinks the Elise is retarded and will probably never want to drive it. I should not care, but of course I do.
Still thinking...
BahnBaum
05-30-2009, 03:19 PM
Still thinking...
Not surprised. :ack:
When you get there, write. ;)
Alex
Well, separated by a 20 minute drive to the P-car stealership.
First the Elise: In a word, the car is just cool. Looks very exotic, sounds great for a 4-cyl, gets lots of attention, and feels special. On the latter, the sports suspension is very stiff. That didn't bother me on most broken roads, but when you hit a true pothole, holy crap it feels hard and it sounds like you just damaged the car. The upside is that this car redefines directness and feedback - though interestingly it is very numb on center. The 330i felt totally Lincoln Towncar after the drive - amazing to see (feel). The other thing you immediately notice is that your left leg is permanently against the left wheel well. Somehow I got used to this and it stopped bothering me. Also the shifter has unexpectedly long throws and a fairly vague gate. I had trouble finding 2nd. Things grew easier over time, but never felt great. A bummer was that the hardtop was on and the way it wraps down on the sides to meet the windows gives you pretty shitty visibility. The biggest downer is the actual performance. The car was spanking new and I was told to keep it under 6krpm - and I obliged. Now, I know that the fun is supposed to start after 6krpm, but still, it felt at best ZHP fast sub-6krpm. I found an empty parking lot and did a skidpad test, and while impressive, didn't seem all that much better than mid-engined P-car.
How to summarize? My best attempt is to say it feels loud, uncomfortable, etc in a way (I'm guessing) a weekend vintage car might. So while it sounds like that's a bad thing, it can be considered cool. Nobody buys/drives them because of the comfort or even the performance, but because they are special and cool. The ace in the Elise's pocket of course is that it does have good performance, it's just very hard to find the limits on the street without sounding or looking like an ass or at least calling a lot of attention - which is not good for cops, I'd guess. So in the end it's a lot of bark without much bite. But it's impossible to undermine the extreme coolness of the car (and I drove a boring-as-fuck grey one). If I had easy access to (or at least made the time to go to) a track or committed to doing autox (both possible), it would make a lot more sense.
The Cayman S is like a refined and subdued Elise. Very comfortable with performance at your fingertips. It doesn't punish you and just does what it's told. We all know the rest: great brakes, smooth & strong engine, sweet handling, good clutch and shifter, etc. The bottom line is that the Cayman is much faster in the setting it would be driven most. It allows you to relax if you wish, and it feels more expensive. It's like an Elise in a tux.
Conclusion? I dunno. Well, I do know one thing. In a nice sunny day like today, I felt like an ass driving a coupe (that doesn't even have a sunroof). If I didn't have to drive kids to work everyday and could have one as a DD, no doubt, I'd take the Cayman. But for what it is, I think it would be silly for me not to take a Boxster even if I give up a bit of rigidity in the process.
So which one, Elise or 987S? If they cost the same and if they depreciated the same, it's a no-brainer, I'd the the P-car. But as it stands, the Cayman S or 3.4L 987S are 8-10K more and probably bound to depreciate more. But I also can't shake the feeling that the P-car would be too much like my 330i. Maybe this is the result of driving the Cayman instead of a Boxster with the top down. And perhaps more interestingly, a cheaper (Elise money) 3.2L Boxster S.
The Elise is nuts, totally different, wild, sexy, gets tons of attention. The P-car is the safe, can't go wrong choice. I'll leave it to some of the better writers here to make the appropriate girl analogy.;)
I told a few guys at work and they think I'm retarded for not just jumping on an Elise. Their giddyness reflects mine when I think about the Elise, which makes me think I should just go for it since this is what this experiment is for.
OTOH, I know my wife thinks the Elise is retarded and will probably never want to drive it. I should not care, but of course I do.
Still thinking...
One thing about the cayman S is that it has much more juice and sound in the 5000-7000 range than one expects at first. I did just a bit of blasting around today and a few full acceleration runs in 3rd gear (took it up to 98mph indicated in that gear) and gf complained of ear damage (and she is used to the car). Non-pasm cars are firm but not super smooth either. PASM is bmw-soft so if you want to blast around on smooth roads, definitely hit the suspension button.
So between the firm suspension and the high rpm s2000-ish character, there is quite a raw side to the car. You may not have gotten there in the test drives and that's normal. I generally enjoy testing used cars more than new ones (as you can totally wind them out). If you are going to full throttle all the way in gears 1-2-3, you'll need a road with a good amount of room.
I recommend more test drives of both Elise & the 987S. The depreciation argument is moot if you get an uncomfortable/unusable car. The round trip transaction cost on any of these cars will be 5 to 10k, even if it is a used elise. I think it is more important to get the right car in the first place, be it elise or cayman. They are what they are, different and far sportier experiences than the zhp, figure out which you like and commit to it, stop thinking about keeping your future options open. Just like you must have done when you bought the zhp new, an awesome choice for a sports sedan.
Finally, other than being relatively comfortable, the porsche is not much like the 330i. This to me, indicates you didn't really drive it very hard. And it is hard to drive it hard because the 3.4's strength and the platform's grip limits are way higher than the zhp. I remember towards the end of the two month period when I owned both, driving the zhp was nice but a) annoying due to the e46 clutch (a new one at that) and b) I could take it very close to its/my limits than before. Regularly started getting chirps in gear changes and felt on the edge on some turns, as it felt so easy, slow and accessible when also owning the croc.
John V
05-30-2009, 06:48 PM
Drive the nicest Boxster S with the 3.4L motor that is in your price range. You will love it. Buy it. Drive it for a few years. Then upgrade to the Boxster S with the DI engine (2010+) that finally gets away from the M96 derivative block, and own it forever. There will never be a reason for you to own a GT2/GT3 or even a Turbo.
Drive the nicest Boxster S with the 3.4L motor that is in your price range. You will love it. Buy it. Drive it for a few years. Then upgrade to the Boxster S with the DI engine (2010+) that finally gets away from the M96 derivative block, and own it forever. There will never be a reason for you to own a GT2/GT3 or even a Turbo.
I've made a decision. If Fil can hook me up, I'll probably buy his boring '07 987S. ;)
I'll sell the ZHP and live with the V70R as the DD. We'll have a cheap JGC for crap duty and backup 4-seater. We'll try that out for a couple of years.
Cool, but do get a color that you really like.
wdc330i
05-31-2009, 09:28 AM
I've made a decision. If Fil can hook me up, I'll probably buy his boring '07 987S. ;)
I'll sell the ZHP and live with the V70R as the DD. We'll have a cheap JGC for crap duty and backup 4-seater. We'll try that out for a couple of years.
I think this path will mean the fewest regrets. And the greatest satisfaction.
I've made a decision. If Fil can hook me up, I'll probably buy his boring '07 987S. ;)
I'll sell the ZHP and live with the V70R as the DD. We'll have a cheap JGC for crap duty and backup 4-seater. We'll try that out for a couple of years.
Today I was out on a long, hard bike ride and saw a nice red boxster. Wondered if I should swap my cayman for a cpo boxster (perhaps little cash outlay, get a 'vert and an extended warranty), did a search and there really are no well priced boxies in the whole northeast. Nothing. Good luck.
Sounds cool, FC. Very cool. Looking forward to seeing pics if the deal works out.
Went down to drive it yesterday. A guy from OH already had a deposit on it. I forgot my wallet (Doh!) so my wife drove an '04 LE 986S with the cocoa leather interior and loved the interior (and the car too). I (we) know for sure I want a Boxster now.
I'm working on another car...
lemming
06-01-2009, 09:42 AM
Went down to drive it yesterday. A guy from OH already had a deposit on it. I forgot my wallet (Doh!) so my wife drove an '04 LE 986S with the cocoa leather interior and loved the interior (and the car too). I (we) know for sure I want a Boxster now.
I'm working on another car...
awesome dealership, though, huh?
:D
i'm not a convertible fan at all, but the way porsche tunes its engines to sound, with the top down, it's intoxicating.
awesome dealership, though, huh?
:D
i'm not a convertible fan at all, but the way porsche tunes its engines to sound, with the top down, it's intoxicating.
Yes to both.:)
lemming
06-01-2009, 01:42 PM
Yes to both.:)
i think you should start a new thread because at first glance people won't know the direction this one is taking.
:dunno:
looking into CPO 911s and 987s opens a whole new can of whupass on things.
3LOU5
06-01-2009, 01:49 PM
....But I also can't shake the feeling that the P-car would be too much like my 330i....
There's your answer right there. Get the Elise.
IMO, and if I were in your case, I'd get something so completely "out there", something in the other end of the spectrum from the other cars you normally drive. Even though I've never test drove one, I think the Elise offers a driving experience few cars will equal.
I'm in the "every-car-you-own-should-be-totally-different-from-each-other" school. Hence the diversity of the vehicles in my sig.
John V
06-01-2009, 01:53 PM
I agree with you, Lou, but I disagree with FC who thinks the 987 will be too much like his 330. It will not be. It's sharp and responsive in ways the 330 will never be, the top goes down, it's firm where the 330 is soft, its steering is quick where the 330s is slow...
If he gets the "right" 987, it won't hurt too much when he decides to sell it and try something else. If that "something else" needs to be more hardcore to scratch an itch, then the Elise will still be out there waiting.
I agree with you, Lou, but I disagree with FC who thinks the 987 will be too much like his 330. It will not be. It's sharp and responsive in ways the 330 will never be, the top goes down, it's firm where the 330 is soft, its steering is quick where the 330s is slow...
If he gets the "right" 987, it won't hurt too much when he decides to sell it and try something else. If that "something else" needs to be more hardcore to scratch an itch, then the Elise will still be out there waiting.
Like I said, I will one day own an Elise/Exige, but right now, it's not the right time. My wife is supportive of a future Lotus purchase. Hopefully life/finances support it as well.
For now, I know that even my wife agrees that 987S>MCS, so not only am I very happy with getting a 987S, she will be very happy too.
John V
06-01-2009, 02:48 PM
For what it's worth, my fiancee was very skeptical of the Boxster purchase when I made it. She very quickly fell in love with that car. She was sad we decided to let it go.
BahnBaum
06-01-2009, 02:52 PM
My gf loves the croc.
Hmm, first time I've heard anyone refer to it by that name.
Alex
Fwiw (and it's not worth much), I drove a Boxster for the first time last week. With the top down on a beautiful (typical San Diego) day. It was nice enough, but the strongest impression I came away with was "man is this car SLOW." It has the older engine, but it was not in the same ball park as the 335 for power. It didn't feel like it handled any better either, but I assume that was from not being familiar with the car.
On the other hand, the lack of wind noise and buffeting in the cabin and the sound of the exhaust note made me think that it might be nice to have for the wife that likes the idea of a convertible. Then I remembered we have kids.
John V
06-03-2009, 01:37 PM
A Boxster or a Boxster S? The 987 Boxster feels a lot slower than the 986S, and the 986 non-S cars are sloooooooooow. Only the latest 987S cars are going to approach a 335 in terms of outright speed. The 335 is a very fast, if totally unsatisfying (to me) automobile.
Any of them will run rings around a 335 in terms of handling. There is just no comparison whatsoever.
A Boxster or a Boxster S? The 987 Boxster feels a lot slower than the 986S, and the 986 non-S cars are sloooooooooow. Only the latest 987S cars are going to approach a 335 in terms of outright speed. The 335 is a very fast, if totally unsatisfying (to me) automobile.
Any of them will run rings around a 335 in terms of handling. There is just no comparison whatsoever.
Yeah. I drove the base 987 when it came out and my impression was that it was a bit faster than a ZHP but handled far better. The Cayman felt 996C2 fast and far more fun to drive than the E90 M3 sedan.
In the end, I don't blame people for thinking this is a bit insane - buying a roadster 4 weeks before my 2nd son is born. But it is an experiment (also a 30th B-day and 5th year anniversary gift to both of us). If it turns out to be the dumbest move in terms of not being able to drive it enough, we sell it in 2-3 years and get an M3 sedan (new, used, whatever). My only other option was to keep what we have now, which while sane, is boring.
John V
06-03-2009, 01:51 PM
I don't think what you're doing is insane. It's not like you won't have other car options for when you need to take the rugrats places. And if you have the money, right now is a great time to get a new car. You're right - if it doesn't end up working out like you want you can always sell it. :dunno:
In the end, I don't blame people for thinking this is a bit insane - buying a roadster 4 weeks before my 2nd son is born.
It works out well for us having one of our cars a 2-seater. Our situation is a little different, in that only one of us commutes to work each day. If it works for your situation too, then I wouldn't second guess the decision.
And I have to say... having the option to go out for a drive with the top down, after the kids go to bed, is an awfully nice stress reliever. Even if that was your only opportunity to drive the car, it would be well worth it.
It works out well for us having one of our cars a 2-seater. Our situation is a little different, in that only one of us commutes to work each day. If it works for your situation too, then I wouldn't second guess the decision.
And I have to say... having the option to go out for a drive with the top down, after the kids go to bed, is an awfully nice stress reliever. Even if that was your only opportunity to drive the car, it would be well worth it.
That's our view. The Boxster is our break away from the kids. We realistically won't be able to go on long vacations for a while and New England is a great place for short weekend getaways. The Boxster, with it's two trunks is a great car for that too.
The drive home from MI should be fun and start the good memories. Financing is all set, as is insurance ($661/year). Need to book a flight now.
I've come to embrace the V70R. More and more, I'm realizign it was tuned for the stiff suspension setting and anything else makes it handle awkwardly stupid. If pushed, it can really move and it has strong breaks. Not bad for the DD/family car. We still have 4.5 years left on the warranty too. Finally we'll have a nice cheap car for crap jobs/blizzards/dog/towing/leaving at the train station/back-up, etc.
Oh, and my wife doesn't drive to work.
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