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View Full Version : Shocker, I'm waffling again re: Jeep.


FC
02-20-2009, 07:54 AM
I'm getting cold feet about buying the Jeep. In light of a potential M3 sedan purchase, it doesn't seem right dropping over 25K on a new JK and then 55K on an M3 - especially in this economy.

I'm planning on going back to my old 4Runner/JGC plan for under ~8K and keep it as a true beater/3rd car. In a few years I'd look at a used JK.

:rolleyes: @ myself.

BahnBaum
02-20-2009, 07:59 AM
"When you get there.......... write."

Told to me years ago by a really wise old lady.

:D

Alex

FC
02-20-2009, 08:00 AM
"When you get there.......... write."

Told to me years ago by a really wise old lady.

:D

Alex

:lol:


:o:o:o

RMR
02-20-2009, 10:50 AM
I'm getting cold feet about buying the Jeep. In light of a potential M3 sedan purchase, it doesn't seem right dropping over 25K on a new JK and then 55K on an M3 - especially in this economy.

I'm planning on going back to my old 4Runner/JGC plan for under ~8K and keep it as a true beater/3rd car. In a few years I'd look at a used JK.

:rolleyes: @ myself.

This is the route I would take if I were you. Old 4Runners are perfect for hauling, medium off road fun and winter driving/beating. Having owned and driven a Grand Cherokee I'd personally stay away from them as they require alot of maintenance compared to a Honda Pilot or a 4Runner.

Have you looked at used Pilots? A friend of mine needed a winter car with a huge utility factor and bought an '03 Pilot with 102k miles for around $8k. It is built great and feels like it has half those miles on it. Just change the oil and go. Granted the Pilot is not made for off roading but not sure how much of that you want to do. It's cargo space is bigger than a 4Runner.

FC
02-20-2009, 10:59 AM
This is the route I would take if I were you. Old 4Runners are perfect for hauling, medium off road fun and winter driving/beating. Having owned and driven a Grand Cherokee I'd personally stay away from them as they require alot of maintenance compared to a Honda Pilot or a 4Runner.

Have you looked at used Pilots? A friend of mine needed a winter car with a huge utility factor and bought an '03 Pilot with 102k miles for around $8k. It is built great and feels like it has half those miles on it. Just change the oil and go. Granted the Pilot is not made for off roading but not sure how much of that you want to do. It's cargo space is bigger than a 4Runner.

I want an SUV with a transfer case for "just in case" moments. Maybe I ought to look for high-mile Land Cruisers, but I suspect they will be too expensive. Plus they are big and thirsty.

Rob
02-20-2009, 11:58 AM
Does "older" mean last generation? I doubt you would be all that happy with the last generation of 4Runner. They are very truck like compared to the newer model.

RMR
02-20-2009, 11:59 AM
I want an SUV with a transfer case for "just in case" moments. Maybe I ought to look for high-mile Land Cruisers, but I suspect they will be too expensive. Plus they are big and thirsty.

That's what I was thinking you were going after.

have you looked at the older gen Toyota Sequoia SUVs? Big utility/cargo areas and not as expensive as the Land Cruisers. They are heavy monsters though.

FC
02-20-2009, 12:01 PM
That's what I was thinking you were going after.

have you looked at the older gen Toyota Sequoia SUVs? Big utility/cargo areas and not as expensive as the Land Cruisers. They are heavy monsters though.

They are a bit too monstrous. The Land Cruiser has the upside of "if needed" being a decent trip car.

FC
02-20-2009, 12:03 PM
Does "older" mean last generation? I doubt you would be all that happy with the last generation of 4Runner. They are very truck like compared to the newer model.

I need to drive it. I just don't want to go up the slippery road of escalting prices that brought me to the JK. There are Land Cruisers out there in the teens. Decent current-gen 4Runners cost mid-low teens, so I think I rather have the LC. I have to look and drive still.

ff
02-20-2009, 12:25 PM
I need to drive it. I just don't want to go up the slippery road of escalting prices that brought me to the JK. There are Land Cruisers out there in the teens. Decent current-gen 4Runners cost mid-low teens, so I think I rather have the LC. I have to look and drive still.

You can pick up a brand new current generation 4Runner for well under 30, so I would have to believe that there are plenty of 5 year old ones that would go for low-low teens (eBay?). Especially in this financial climate.

equ
02-20-2009, 12:57 PM
Much better idea, and to this I won't roll my eyes. Much better bang for buck than dumping 25k+ on a new jeep that is not going to see much of its intended use. On % terms the new jeeps are going to lose atrocious value, especially compared to your depreciated zhp.

lupinsea
02-20-2009, 12:58 PM
I need to drive it. I just don't want to go up the slippery road of escalting prices that brought me to the JK. There are Land Cruisers out there in the teens. Decent current-gen 4Runners cost mid-low teens, so I think I rather have the LC. I have to look and drive still.

I've suggested for a while to get a base model JK Unlimited w/ 4WD. It's real easy to see prices on the JKs escalate because of perceived bargains on this upgrade or that upgrade. It's like climbing some stairs one step at a time, then when you get to the top you look down and think holy crap, how did I get this high?

Well, I can't get a base model used for $X. But I could get a slightly newer one for $X+1. Ah, but if I go for the used Rubicon level it "only" costs $X+2. But hey, they're having scream'n deal on brand new ones for many thousands below invoice/msrp and it's not that much more than the used Rubicon. . . .

Next thing you know you've convinced yourself to spend $10,000 - $13,000 MORE for a JK that you really need to.

And if you're looking for a LC or 4Runner in the teens then look a bit further down the line on the Wranglers. The base model Unlimited JKs will have the same, if not better fowl weather capability as the 4Runners and LCs, they come with a transfercase as you want, plus unlike anything else on the market the tops and doors come off for convertible cruising.

I mean, "IF" you are going to be considering spending money in the teens on an SUV then I'd still consider the JK. It's a rig you've said you've really been wanting and have sounded passionate about. The 4Runner and LC seem like settling. Besides, you get an Unlimited JK and you can probably get a newer vehicle with less miles in the JK than you could in the 4Runner or LC for the same price.

Edmunds.com lists their TMV of a JK Unlimited X at $15.6k (http://www.edmunds.com/jeep/wrangler/2007/index.html). Accurate? Don't know, but probably not far off if you look, and honestly look down market.

Heck, if it were me I'd be willing to accept a few cosmetic dings and such if it could knock another thousand or two off the price. It's a Jeep after all.

Here's the thing, if you want more goodies or a fancier JK later, trade up as you would do anyways with the 4Runner or LC. The JKs will probably hold their value better, if not as good. Or add the goodies your self as time, budget and your inclination dictate.



So either get a real cheapie SUV in the sub-$5k range or if you're considering the mid-to-low teens reconsider the JK Unlimited Xs.


I think it's healthy for you to be re-examining the JK purchase, especially as it is balanced against a potentially expensive sports car/sports sedan. But if you're determined to get some kind of SUV I still wouldn't rule out a vehicle you've really been wanting for a looong time.

BTW, how long have you been wanting to get a Jeep? Didn't you say you've wanted one since you were a boy? That's been, what, 15-20 years? And now there's a Jeep that otherwise meets a lot of practical needs for you and your family.

There seem to be a lot more options on the performance car side of things. But there is only one Jeep.

FC
02-20-2009, 01:37 PM
I know what you mean lup. I really just want to spend 6-8K. The more I cross past 10K, the more I feel like I get neither. Not really what I want and not really for cheap. I don't need it now, so I'll patiently look throughout the year. I would, however, like to have one by next winter.

I'll think through this.

lemming
02-22-2009, 04:03 PM
whatever jeep you get, just don't drive in the left hand lane of I-95.

i don't understand what jeep wrangler owners are thinking when they're in the left lane of the highway, holding up a stream of cars. cd drag =0.53 or so? with only 200 (anemic) hp?

Nick M3
02-22-2009, 04:38 PM
I hope you will be leasing the M3. With residuals higher than the likely resale value, and interest rates close to zero, it's completely stupid to buy.

FC
02-22-2009, 05:52 PM
I hope you will be leasing the M3. With residuals higher than the likely resale value, and interest rates close to zero, it's completely stupid to buy.

I haven't figured that part out yet. But as I said before, if I get one, it will be through ED, and that means we're out at least 15 months, and probably more. I'll check the lease vs. buy question at that time.

I'm not even sold completely on the M3 yet, but it is one of the options. First, I need to test drive the sedan.

In fact, an M3 is so far away and the price so high, I am considering trying out the sportscar thing in the meantime while keeping the ZHP. If I get an Elise for 25K or under, both cars combined would be worth 40K. Heck, I could buy a used Jeep too and only then would I get close to M3 money. The ZHP and say Elise would be pretty far along in the depretiation curve and I can try that setup out for 1.5-2 years. If I love it, I keep it going. If it was a mistake, I can sell both without taking a massive bath and get an M3. By that time, we'll know more re: the M3's reliability as I ideally would like to keep the car for 4-6 years.

FC
02-22-2009, 05:54 PM
whatever jeep you get, just don't drive in the left hand lane of I-95.

i don't understand what jeep wrangler owners are thinking when they're in the left lane of the highway, holding up a stream of cars. cd drag =0.53 or so? with only 200 (anemic) hp?

They're retarded to do that. That car has no balls. Especially as most of them are configured. I don't think I'd ever want to even be in the hwy. And then, I'd keep to the right lane and 5mph over the limit as the coefficient of drag approaches a brick.

Josh (PA)
02-22-2009, 07:26 PM
another positive about getting a used 4runner is there will still be a dealership network and manufacturer sanctioned maintenance in a year. Who knows where Chrysler and Jeep will be.

ZBB
02-22-2009, 07:27 PM
whatever jeep you get, just don't drive in the left hand lane of I-95.


:lol::lol::lol:

That brought back memories of my '65 LandCruiser that I had in high school and college.

I used to dread the drive down I-10 between Phoenix and Tucson. Its ~120 miles one-way, which was not too fun in the old TLC, especially Aug, Sept and May (and then I'd only drive after dark in those months)...

The TLC had a nice 4.0L I-6, but it had very low gearing and a 3-on-the-tree shifter. 3rd gear maxed out at ~75, but the damn thing felt like it would lift off the road if I went much over 60. I'd keep in the right lane, and hope nobody was going slower since I didn't want to get out in the left lane at all.

I did manage to get it up to about 80 once -- and about freaked myself out. I was behind a semi, and learned how effective drafting was that day.

lupinsea
02-23-2009, 02:24 PM
CoD = .53? No shit? Damn, I didn't expect the Jeep to be that good.

FWIW, the CoD on a brick is about 2.1

Most of the time as soon as I get on the freeway I'll glue my self to the right hand lane and keep it around 60 mph or so. More than that the the fuel burn gets excessive. Though I've had the Jeep up to 85+ mph before. Not the most stable but it felt "fine." Once had it doing 80 mph+ with the doors off, too. A bit windy.

Some times around here, though, the traffic speeds around Seattle are low enough that I'm passing people in the left hand land and dodging and weaving through traffic. Sometimes. But mostly I just pick a lane and stick with it.



The Jeep isn't "fun" to drive on the highway but it gets you there. One winter my wife and I put on 400 miles on the Jeep with highway driving in a weekend when we went wine tasting on the other side of the mountains. Hard to feel sophisticated pulling up to the tasting room at the winery driving my offroading Jeep.

lemming
02-23-2009, 02:31 PM
CoD = .53? No shit? Damn, I didn't expect the Jeep to be that good.

FWIW, the CoD on a brick is about 2.1

Most of the time as soon as I get on the freeway I'll glue my self to the right hand lane and keep it around 60 mph or so. More than that the the fuel burn gets excessive. Though I've had the Jeep up to 85+ mph before. Not the most stable but it felt "fine." Once had it doing 80 mph+ with the doors off, too. A bit windy.

Some times around here, though, the traffic speeds around Seattle are low enough that I'm passing people in the left hand land and dodging and weaving through traffic. Sometimes. But mostly I just pick a lane and stick with it.



The Jeep isn't "fun" to drive on the highway but it gets you there. One winter my wife and I put on 400 miles on the Jeep with highway driving in a weekend when we went wine tasting on the other side of the mountains. Hard to feel sophisticated pulling up to the tasting room at the winery driving my offroading Jeep.

generally speaking, from the 3 times it happened to me last week, it was a young female on the phone and it did look pretty scary.

RMR
02-23-2009, 03:00 PM
CoD = .53? No shit? Damn, I didn't expect the Jeep to be that good.

FWIW, the CoD on a brick is about 2.1

Most of the time as soon as I get on the freeway I'll glue my self to the right hand lane and keep it around 60 mph or so. More than that the the fuel burn gets excessive. Though I've had the Jeep up to 85+ mph before. Not the most stable but it felt "fine." Once had it doing 80 mph+ with the doors off, too. A bit windy.

Some times around here, though, the traffic speeds around Seattle are low enough that I'm passing people in the left hand land and dodging and weaving through traffic. Sometimes. But mostly I just pick a lane and stick with it.

The Jeep isn't "fun" to drive on the highway but it gets you there. One winter my wife and I put on 400 miles on the Jeep with highway driving in a weekend when we went wine tasting on the other side of the mountains. Hard to feel sophisticated pulling up to the tasting room at the winery driving my offroading Jeep.

Back in 1993, I drove from Chicago to Dayton, OH (around 330 miles) in a 1990 4 cylinder Wrangler in early January heading back to college after Winter Break. What an experience. Thinking back to that trip, I think saying the Jeep isn't "fun" to drive on the highway is an understatement. At least a 1990 Jeep Wrangler wasn't.

Though once the weather warmed up and we had the thing at campus it was a blast.

lupinsea
02-23-2009, 03:09 PM
The '97+ Wranglers had an entirely new suspension re-design when they switched to coil springs and ditched the leaf springs. Compared to previous Jeeps it's like riding in a mushy Cadillac. Compared to contemporary cars, it's still pretty poor (and a reason the Wranglers consistently get low marks in ride/handling in the reviews). The '07+ Wranglers have had a new suspension design, too. Not as radical at the '97 coil spring switch. They use longer control arms and the Jeeps have a slightly longer wheelbase (2 door) which helps a lot. The 4-door with an even longer wheel base are said to ride pretty good.

But yeah, a YJ wrangler 4-cyl. Oof.

Hm.

One of the guys I wheel with from time to time has one of those. He drive it all over the place and not infrequently drives the 200+ miles from Portland, OR up to the Seattle area to wheel'n with the locals. He loves his Jeep.

lemming
02-23-2009, 07:13 PM
The '97+ Wranglers had an entirely new suspension re-design when they switched to coil springs and ditched the leaf springs. Compared to previous Jeeps it's like riding in a mushy Cadillac. Compared to contemporary cars, it's still pretty poor (and a reason the Wranglers consistently get low marks in ride/handling in the reviews). The '07+ Wranglers have had a new suspension design, too. Not as radical at the '97 coil spring switch. They use longer control arms and the Jeeps have a slightly longer wheelbase (2 door) which helps a lot. The 4-door with an even longer wheel base are said to ride pretty good.

But yeah, a YJ wrangler 4-cyl. Oof.

Hm.

One of the guys I wheel with from time to time has one of those. He drive it all over the place and not infrequently drives the 200+ miles from Portland, OR up to the Seattle area to wheel'n with the locals. He loves his Jeep.

the TJ chassis seemed like a huge leap forward for the wrangler, no?

but the price of that short wheelbase and longish-suspension travel is a brutal highway experience.

much like an elise is brutal in anything but its element, the wrangler, as much as people who never offroad tend to use it as an urban assault vehicle, is pretty miserable to drive in typical commuting.

when i bought my cherokee, i took a TJ home for the weekend and drove the hell out of it. i just couldn't do it.

FC
02-23-2009, 08:33 PM
Let me just say that I rode shotgun on a stock TJ and it was the most horrendous street vehicle I've been in in memory.

My brother has a '00 Cherokee in very good shape and the JK unlimited is a far better ride.

lupinsea
02-24-2009, 02:01 PM
the TJ chassis seemed like a huge leap forward for the wrangler, no?
Yup. Big changes. The TJ chassis (including suspension design) was the biggest change to the Jeep since its inception in the early 40's. The improved ride quality the coil springs offer vs. the "old" leaf springs is phenomenal. Either on road or off road. I had an old CJ5 guy go for a short 3 minute ride in my TJ on the trail last years. All we did was drive up a steep, long section of trail. Nothing much, but those 3 minutes had him seriously considering selling his CJ5 and buying a TJ because it was such a difference to the comfort of his cronically sore back.

but the price of that short wheelbase and longish-suspension travel is a brutal highway experience.

much like an elise is brutal in anything but its element, the wrangler, as much as people who never offroad tend to use it as an urban assault vehicle, is pretty miserable to drive in typical commuting.
There are simply certain physics of the Jeep that you simply won't be able to get away from. The short wheel base, taller seating position, heavy unsprung weight from the solid axles (~350+ lb. per axle including tires and wheels) and so forth do take their toll on the ride quality. And when you lift it and put larger tires on it only exacerbates this. The thing is that a lot of guys like this about the Jeep. That it still feels like you're driving a truck. In an area where the ride/handling ideal seems to focus on "car-like ride quality" where big pick up trucks, SUVs, minivans and cross overs try to get as close to a car-like ride as possible, it's some times nice having something at the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

I'll certainly admit that my Jeep rides no where near as good as any car. That it is crude, bumpy, harsh, etc. But it's one reason I love it. Even rolling around town. It definitely feels more alive and interesting that most cars I've ridden in. Much more character.

And yes, very much like the Elise, the further you get out of the Wrangler's element, the "worse" it gets. It does awesome on the trails. Gravel roads it does ok so long as you're not going too fast as the pot holes and wash boards do a number w/ the heavy unsprung suspension weight. Paved arterials and city streets and back country roads are fine. Speeds aren't too high on these road and the Jeep actually feels pretty fun at the speed limits. Freeways suck the most, though.

Oddly enough, with the short wheel base I love taking my Jeep downtown. It's very manouverable and with the minimal overhangs I can fit into very tight parking spots. Plus with the tall tires I don't worry about curb rash.

As for worries about other people hitting my bumpers during parallel parking? Go on, I dare them. They'll do far, far more damage to their cars if they touch my Jeep. 1/4" thick steel angle iron bumpers and forged d-shacke tow points can do that.




when i bought my cherokee, i took a TJ home for the weekend and drove the hell out of it. i just couldn't do it.
Let me just say that I rode shotgun on a stock TJ and it was the most horrendous street vehicle I've been in in memory.

:D

It certainly takes a certain mind set to appreciate what the Wranglers are. If you look them as "cars" and compare them to other cars they are nothing but disappointment on 4 wheels. But they're Jeeps. They don't really fit into any one category. Despite how they are officially classified, they're not really a car (neither sedan, hatchback, coupe, etc.), they're not a pickup truck, they're not an SUV, they don't even fit the crossover niche.

rautox
02-24-2009, 02:18 PM
It certainly takes a certain mind set to appreciate what the Wranglers are. If you look them as "cars" and compare them to other cars they are nothing but disappointment on 4 wheels. But they're Jeeps. They don't really fit into any one category. Despite how they are officially classified, they're not really a car (neither sedan, hatchback, coupe, etc.), they're not a pickup truck, they're not an SUV, they don't even fit the crossover niche.

Nicely, politely put. It's a throwback. And as someone who finds simplicity to be a really nice feature, I find it refreshing compared to just about everything else on the market. The handling? :dunno: that's not why I bought it.

And, if refinement even makes it into a list of considerations, you really shouldn't buy one. That would be like complaining about a motorcycle's climate control. It's a whole different thing, one that just happens to also wear a license plate. You'd be happier with, and far more likely to want to keep, something else.

FC
02-24-2009, 03:17 PM
I've been looking at used JK's again, and I see a few '07's for asking prices of 19-20K. When you factor in that they are older, 1st year production, out of warranty, and without all the stuff I would want, it's no wonder new JK's are flying out of dealer lots. Heck, the free financing alone is worth ~$3K.

I need to test drive an M3 sedan soon, because if I turn out not wanting one, and I also can't get any use out of a sports car, I might as well get my jeep just the way I want it. Since I will ideally keep this car for well over a decade, I'd hate to always why I didn't get what I wanted one when I had the chance.

Still waffling...

equ
02-24-2009, 04:36 PM
I know next to nothing about jeeps, infinitely less than Lup and a million times less than FC... But to me, just on looks, the new ones don't look like the old "cool" ones. If I had to own one, I'd get one of Lup's generation and use it for the fun drives/rides he's talking about. Not sure if a shiny new one would do the trick.

equ
02-24-2009, 04:36 PM
BTW, I consider a one year old one new.

FC
02-24-2009, 04:46 PM
BTW, I consider a one year old one new.

How about a 2 y.o. with 30K miles?

equ
02-24-2009, 05:26 PM
I think if I wanted a jeep to bounce around in, I'd get a TJ. It's cheaper, holds its value, you get to mess with it, looks like a real jeep etc. etc. The JK (is that the nomenclature for the new ones) is just trying to do more things, but what's the point?

The v70R is close to the perfect family-mobile, as you keep noting. Just recently you compared it favorably to a 50-60k 535xiT... What better praise? So keep that.

The zhp is good. Either keep it or replace with some other fun car (m3/boxster etc).

Problem solved.

FC
02-24-2009, 07:06 PM
I think if I wanted a jeep to bounce around in, I'd get a TJ. It's cheaper, holds its value, you get to mess with it, looks like a real jeep etc. etc. The JK (is that the nomenclature for the new ones) is just trying to do more things, but what's the point?

The v70R is close to the perfect family-mobile, as you keep noting. Just recently you compared it favorably to a 50-60k 535xiT... What better praise? So keep that.

The zhp is good. Either keep it or replace with some other fun car (m3/boxster etc).

Problem solved.

So your solution is that I do nothing? Sure. I know that's the sane thing to do (and I've said this repeatedly), and the more I waffle, the more I think the other alternatives are nothing but expensive experiments with marginal benefits.

The one thing we do need, is some SUV for the tasks I've mentioned ad nauseam that the ZHP and R can't do. I cheap, $4K JGC may be all that's needed, but why not get a JK that has a bit more character, and a convertible top? I mean, if I'm not going to do anything else for a few years.

equ
02-24-2009, 07:29 PM
Why not get a TJ that has more character for under $10k? Neither the JGC nor the JK are as cool.

Say you buy it for $8k, dump a 1k or so. If you hate it, you can get out around $6-7k, and you're out $3k. That's just about the tax on a 20-30k vehicle. How many miles are you planning to put on it (given that the v70 & the zhp or some other sporty car will be there)?

I have no idea what they go for. Replace 8 by n, but the difference math remains the same.

equ
02-24-2009, 07:36 PM
Here are my search results, 200mile radius, centered on Cambridge, MA...

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?num_records=25&search_lang=en&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&search_type=both&distance=200&address=01451&marketZipError=false&style_flag=1&make=JEEP&model=&make2=&start_year=1996&end_year=2005&min_price=&max_price=&seller_type=p&transmission=Manual&engine=6+Cylinder&drive=&doors=&fuel=&max_mileage=75000&color=&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&keywords_display=&only_price=1&sort_type=priceASC&body_code=0&certified=&advanced=y&highlightFirstMakeModel=&showZipError=n&default_sort=priceASC&awsp=false&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&systime=&rdm=1235522129177

Kind of interesting that none of them are near you. Basically no one drives this in Boston, it would be kind of cool...

FC
02-24-2009, 08:09 PM
Why not get a TJ that has more character for under $10k? Neither the JGC nor the JK are as cool.

Say you buy it for $8k, dump a 1k or so. If you hate it, you can get out around $6-7k, and you're out $3k. That's just about the tax on a 20-30k vehicle. How many miles are you planning to put on it (given that the v70 & the zhp or some other sporty car will be there)?

I have no idea what they go for. Replace 8 by n, but the difference math remains the same.

I don't disagree with your logic. Trouble is, you think like a man without a family - which is perfectly fine, if you are single. Without speaking for him, I'm sure lup would pick a 4-door if he had to do it over again (potential budget constraints aside). If there had been a 4-door TJ, despite it's lack of refinement vs. the JK, I'd certainly be looking at one. As it stands, the JK came out in '07 and that's all I'm considering wrt wranglers. I rather get a JGC or 4Runner over a TJ. It's hard to look at a 25K jeep and make it make sense when looked at as any other car. But it maybe makes more sense if you average it out over 10+ years and combine it with other benefits such as having had it since new, potential lifetime warranty, getting exactly what you want, etc.

I'm not saying it makes perfect sense, but I don't think it's crazy. It may seem a lot less crazy still if in 2 years 20%+ discounts are gone, 0% financing is gone and all of a sudden getting the used jeep I want is a struggle and I may only get some of what I want, used, with no warranty, all for a net savings of a couple of $K. Just a scenario.

Anyhow, my point is, IF things are such that my cars don't get replaced, that would save me a LOT of money. So why not spend a lot less extra on the SUV I will buy anyway?

Like I said, I'm still thinking this through.

lupinsea
02-24-2009, 08:41 PM
But to me, just on looks, the new ones don't look like the old "cool" ones.

:lol::lol: You sound like 75% of the diehard Jeepers on Jeepforum.com. It's a real crusty bunch that easily get stuck in their ruts (despite 4WD) and is resistant to change.

When the YJ's came out in '87, horror of horrors, they didn't have ROUND headlights. Even today, 22 years later, guys still refer to them as "Wronglers" because of the rectangular headlights. There was also a lot of garbage done with the suspension to make them "safer" but that's a much smaller story.

When the TJ's came out in '97 there were howls of condemnation about how Chysler was RUINING!!!11one1!! the Jeep by adding coil springs and making giving it a wussy car-like ride. Oh, and the hideious mini-van-like PLASTIC interiors!!! Plastic! On a Jeep! :eek: !!!!1onee!!1!!!

The thing is, the TJs actually had greater capability right out of the box than any previous generation of Jeep. And with some VERY slight and VERY cheep mods would wheel circles around previous generations.

Now the JKs are out the the howling and entrenched bickering is back with the usual complaints on the latest generation:

PLASTIC!!!11! (plastic on the grill, plastic bumper covers, plastic dash, plastic fenders, gaaaaaaahh!!!11)
They look weird (far more contemporary styling that any previous Jeep)
4 Doors? They added a 4-door Wrangler?! That just aiin't right.


Not picking on you at all, equ. . . your comments just brought back amusing memories. FWIW, I really like the approach overall of the new JKs. Across the board they're better in nearly every way.

lip277
02-24-2009, 09:40 PM
I have the perfect Jeep for you.

Nice lines....

Wonderful (and unique) color.....

Small efficient engine....

Doors? Who needs doors???


















































http://photos.ebizautos.com/6001/3772340_7.jpg


http://driver-source.ebizautos.com/detail-1963-willys-dj3-gala_surrey-3772340.html

FC
02-24-2009, 10:07 PM
Wife loves it. :lol:

lemming
02-24-2009, 10:37 PM
Wife loves it. :lol:

in the midst of a recession that hasn't found its trough just yet, i think the longer you waffle, the more choices you get.

;)

lupinsea
02-25-2009, 12:46 PM
I don't disagree with your logic. Trouble is, you think like a man without a family - which is perfectly fine, if you are single. Without speaking for him, I'm sure lup would pick a 4-door if he had to do it over again (potential budget constraints aside).

Ooooooo.. . . it's a tough one.



Even with a family now I'm not 100% sure I'd get the 4-door JK. I drool over them, I lust after them, and the thought of boosting one 4" and throwing on some 35" tires is just awesome. :drool: But actually buying one . . . It's something I'm waffling on myself. Not that I'd be getting a new-ish Jeep any time soon anyways.

The issue for me is a question of just how much the whole family would be going on overnight camping trips.

Projected Scenario Breakdown w/ Lupinsea's Family

Day Trips
If it's just a day-trip then the four of us (me, wife, son + dog) can pile into my TJ with just enough room for a few goodies or snacks or lunch for the day in the tiny area behind the rear seat (30" x 6" x 12"). We don't need much cargo space for day-trips.

Overnight Camping w/ WHOLE Family
However, if we are camping overnight there's not enough internal cargo space in my TJ for all the necessary camping gear (tents, stoves, food, sleeping bags, change of clothes, general gear) and the family.

Overnight Camping Just My Son and I + Dog
But, if it's just me and my son and my dog then it's not an issue. The back seat is removed and we can carefully pack the TJ with overnight camping gear and still have a bit of room for our dog with the two humans sitting up front.

So the question comes down to: How often would my wife want to go on dusty, overnight camping trips out in the boonies?

Reality
In the last 5.5+ years I've known my wife we've gone camping a whole 2 times. The first time was 2 miles on the edge of town in a state park in Idaho. The second time we lasted one night "out in the boonies". She really craves her daily showers, sit-down bathrooms, and other conveniences.

Family Offroading?
As for taking the family offroading? Well, again, my wife has only gone with me twice. It's a bit frustrating as we spend about 3+ hrs round trip to get to and from the trails. . . then she gets bored after about 2-3 hrs of trail riding, or she gets tired of all the bumping and bouncing around or the dust. If I'm going to spend the time driving to and from the trails I want to spend the whole day out there. Usually a day of wheel'n has me leaving the house around 7:30am and returning home around 9:30-11pm. So, my wife doesn't really go wheel'n. And if it's just my son and I we can do that in the TJ.

Other Benefits of a JK Unlimited
As for the other benefits of more cargo space and towing capacity? I don't really max out the internal cargo capacity of the Jeep that much now anyways and when I do I alway have my utility trailer. And the GVWR on the utility trailer (1450 lb.) is well below the towing capacity of my TJ (2000 lb.). The JK Unlimited would boost that to 3500 lb. It would be enough to haul a bit heavier stuff but I don't do that that often. Actually, I can't remember the last time I needed to haul anything the TJ couldn't handle.

Downsides
The downsides of the JK Unlimited as I see it are simply a much bigger rig out on the trail which is mostly the point of the Jeep for me. Bigger turning radius and a worse break-over angle. The longer wheelbase would be very useful in some situations, certainly. And the reports I'm getting from guys running the JK Unlimited on our tight, twisty, northwest trails is that they are doing great. Even on the trails that I thought would give them the most problems. Still, there's nothing like having a tight, compact trail rig and the traditionally sized Jeeps (CJ, YJ, TJ) fit the bill perfectly.


Future Scenearios
For all this I "can" see a JK Unlimited in my future. It would be something different than my current TJ and would be a new Jeep to learn and grow with. But if I were to get a JK Unlimited down the road it would follow one of these scenarios:

The LONG View
Wait at least another 7-10+ years until it really does make more sense to replace the TJ with a JK Unlimited. At that point my TJ would be 15-18 years old. The key would be if the TJ really gets beat up even more out on the trail and just starts falling apart. Still, it'd probably be cheaper to, say, drop $1500 to fix a semi-major problem on the TJ than buy a whole new rig.

JK as Daily Driver
This would see me selling the TJ and selling the ZHP on its schedule replacement cycle and getting a JK Unlimited that I'd use as a daily driver. Not a horrible idea. A bit more in gas on a yearly basis but not that much more. And some issues to worry about if my daily driver breaks down on the trail and needs some TLC. It'd put a crimp on our morning commuting until the JK was repaired. I wouldn't have my fun on-road sporty car (MX-5 or equivalent). But in 3-4 years who knows. I might not want a car that can easily get me speeding tickets.

Current Plan
Currently the plan was to keep the TJ, keep my wife's Volvo for a long while, sell the ZHP in 3-4 years and get me a fun, sporty car. I still think this makes more sense.





So, the earliest I'd have to make a decision would be in 3-4 years when it's time to replace the ZHP. At that point I have to decide if I want a sporty car and keep the TJ or sell the TJ AND the ZHP and get a JK Unlimited for trail and daily driver duties.

I have plenty of time.

But I still love oogling the JK Unlimted.

wdc330i
02-25-2009, 01:20 PM
I guess I'd waffle until the fever passes--probably around the first hint of spring and the winter tires come off the ZHP. Also, fixing whatever bumper damage the ZHP has might make you love her again and buy you some time.

Also, not being a boy, I don't really understand the lust for the Jeep. I understand the practical reason of a high clearance Canada schlepper, but it seems your family is accustomed now to more luxury than a Jeep would provide. I guess I'd hold out for the V70R replacement (X5 diesel? Good towing, good power, good clearance, and plenty of luxury) and an M3 cab or sedan. Fun, practical, luxurious. And cars your whole family would want to ride in. You can then add a beater Jeep for solo jaunts through the wilds.

lemming
02-25-2009, 09:33 PM
i'd get the LR Defender www.copleymotorcars.com just because i like the concept but would want a v8.

FC
02-26-2009, 07:52 AM
Defenders rock. Too bad they never sold the 110 and only the 90.

lemming
02-26-2009, 08:50 AM
is there any compelling reason (i.e. rational) why if all things are equal (including pricing), one would go the Defender route versus the wrangler rubicon thingy?

JST
02-26-2009, 09:07 AM
Defenders rock. Too bad they never sold the 110 and only the 90.

They sold the 110 here in extremely limited numbers. I've seen a couple (probably the same one, maybe even the one in this pic)--I want to say I saw one on the used lot of the local LR dealer.

Here's a pic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Defender_110_Number_233_in_Washington_DC.jpg

According to Wikipedia, there were 525 of them, 500 in the US and 25 in Canada.


In 1993 Land Rover launched the Defender in the North American (i.e. the United States and Canada) market. Although the Range Rover had been sold there since 1987, this was the first time utility Land Rovers had been sold since 1974. To comply with the strict United States Department of Transportation regulations, ranging from crash safety to lighting, as well as the very different requirements of American buyers, the North American Specification (NAS) Defenders were extensively modified. The initial export batch was 525 Defender 110 County Station Wagons. 500 to the United States and 25 to Canada. They were fitted with the 3.9 litre V8 petrol engine and 5-speed manual transmission. All the vehicles were white (except one specifically painted black for Ralph Lauren). They sported full external roll-cages and larger side-indicator and tail-lights. All were equipped with the factory-fitted air conditioning system.



EDIT:
For what those things probably run, you might be able to get a G-wagen. Or a Unimog.

EDIT TO EDIT:

Like this one.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=258767823&dealer_id=68150&car_year=2002&rdm=1235657353960&model=G_CLASSCLASS_SERIES&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=100&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&sownerid=49715884&showZipError=n&make=MB&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=20006&advanced=&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=45&standard=false

EDIT TO EDIT TO EDIT:

Here's a '98 federalized 110 diesel. Only $68K.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=257981748&dealer_id=63775933&car_year=1998&rdm=1235657515566&model=DEFEND&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&make=ROV&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=20006&advanced=&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=6&standard=false

Or an '84. $24K.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=254378068&dealer_id=63525175&car_year=1983&rdm=1235657515566&model=DEFEND&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&first_record=51&make=ROV&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=20006&advanced=&end_year=2010&pager.offset=50&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=661&standard=false

This looks like one of the officially imported ones. No price:

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=258923919&dealer_id=25092514&car_year=1993&rdm=1235657515566&num_records=25&model=DEFEND&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&engine=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&certified=&fuel=&body_code=0&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&first_record=76&make=ROV&color=&keywords_display=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=20006&advanced=&end_year=2010&pager.offset=75&transmission=&doors=&max_price=&cardist=527&standard=false

Here's another one. 62K.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=256901976&dealer_id=100015628&car_year=1993&rdm=1235657515566&num_records=25&model=DEFEND&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&engine=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&certified=&fuel=&body_code=0&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&first_record=76&make=ROV&color=&keywords_display=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=20006&advanced=&end_year=2010&pager.offset=75&transmission=&doors=&max_price=&cardist=658&standard=true

FC
02-26-2009, 09:33 AM
Yeah, for that money, I'd get a G-wagen for sure. Those are pimp.

Cool links though. Thanks JST.

lupinsea
02-26-2009, 01:32 PM
is there any compelling reason (i.e. rational) why if all things are equal (including pricing), one would go the Defender route versus the wrangler rubicon thingy?

To me? No.

Surprisingly, the JK Wranglers are considered more refined with better handling, better NVH levels, better build quality, better milage (I think) and a slight capability edge vs. the LR Defenders based on a British side-by-side review I read (can't locate it again). Though other reviews have like the really stout LR Defenders.

Not to mention the price point for the Jeep is much less, the top and doors are removable (which is a BIG fun factor). And I've heard the Land Rovers reliability is very spotty. This comes from guys who own both a LR and Jeep.

However, I think the Defenders are probably a more stout vehicle in terms of raw chassis strength and durability. And I've never heard of any issues with their axle and suspension design not being up to the task. But then, I don't hear of guys trying to mount 35"+ tires and go rock crawling with them either (which is really harsh on the drivetrains).

But then, I don't really see the Defenders put through the same paces as the Wranglers. I'm sure it happens, but the Wrangler : Land Rover (of any kind) ratio I've personally seen on the trail probably numbers 2000-3000:1 if not more. Seriously, they are ULTRA rare. . . it could be because of their rarity in general, though. Still, with the hardcore nutsos I've seen in the offroad community I'd have expected to see more given their reputation for offroad prowess.

Mostly what's seen on the trails:
Wranglers of any era (CJ, YJ, TJ) BIGGEST Percentage (85%+)
Lots of Cherokees (next biggest percentage)
Old FJ40 Land Cruisers
Old Toyota Pickup trucks (late 70's - mid-80's) bastardized in many ways
A few Grand Cherokees
Everything else is pretty rare.



.

JST
02-26-2009, 01:46 PM
Yeah, for that money, I'd get a G-wagen for sure. Those are pimp.

Cool links though. Thanks JST.

I generally have no desire to own an SUV. But if I were to buy one, it would either be a Defender 90 with a stick or an older Gelandewagen.

Not sure why.

FC
02-26-2009, 04:03 PM
I generally have no desire to own an SUV. But if I were to buy one, it would either be a Defender 90 with a stick or an older Gelandewagen.

Not sure why.

That's pretty much how I felt until the 4-door JK came out. But it being cheaper to own an operate and with a full convertible body, it's more appealing to me.

rautox
02-26-2009, 08:03 PM
And, everybody loves it: http://twitter.com/CReporter/status/1255133967 :lol:

FC
02-26-2009, 09:29 PM
And, everybody loves it: http://twitter.com/CReporter/status/1255133967 :lol:

I know. :lol: I saw that on a CR mailing I got trying to get me to subscribe.

rautox
02-26-2009, 10:17 PM
CR's good for toasters. Beyond that, ... many things are not their forte.