View Full Version : More FC Waffling. Now with fewer variables!
Well, for better or worse, the Jeep is going to happen. Even my wife seems disproportionately pumped about it.
Anyhow, equ's M3 thread coupled with my boss' recent incessant suggestion that I should get an M3 has made me wonder if that maybe isn't such a crazy idea. The fact that there appears to be no wagon on the horizon that I want to drive everyday also has me thinking.
The current plan (which I'm sure you all know by now) is to sell the ZHP soon, add a sub $25K-ish sportscar late this year/early next year and drive the V70R everyday for another ~3 years until a replacement, fun, MT wagon can be bought. I had penciled in a 5er wagon ($-wise). Under this scenario, the V70R is basically THE car of the family, with the jeep and sportscar being only complementary.
But what if is there is no fun, MT wagon that can replace the V70R? My wife can't stand the CTS-wagon, and the new 5er looks far from promising (and it's pretty pricey). I (think) I can take driving the V70R for another 3 years, but I will not be happy about driving it or a similar or worse replacement for much longer.
I was thinking, perhaps we just keep the V70R indefinitely (it's a great car for family trips, etc), and swap the ZHP for an M3 Sedan in a year or two. After all, the M3 sedan is 5er wagon-money, and now the V70R won't be replaced (it's under warranty for 5 more years). My wife was incredibly pumped about the prospect of European delivery of a LeMans blue M3 Sedan. Of course, under this scenario, there is no sports car.
See, the thing is, ZHP+Sportscar>M3 Sedan, but I'm pretty damn sure M3Sedan>Slushy V70R+sportscar. Especially when the sportscar won't be driven very much.
Also, M3=new, ZHP and sportscar would both be used or very used. And keep in mind ZHP+sportscar also means 4 cars and that's just not gonna happen.
If not the M3 sedan, there is no other sedan that is worth the premium over my ZHP, so the cheap sedan solution is to just add the jeep and call it a day.
So, M3 I can drive everyday (with kids/wife in the car half the time) or slushy (but sporty, fwiw) family car with a weekend sportscar?
The more I think about it, the more I get convinced the sportscar will have to wait until the kids ar in grade school. But I want to hear your thoughts.
Sorry for yet another waffle thread.
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Other thoguhts:
-I have been thinking of a late S4 Avant (stuka's car). It's small, but we have the thule box for long trips. Except in 2-3 years that car will be out of warranty already.
-The M3's poor mileage doesn't bother me too much. The lack of warranty after 4 years does. We'll know more about it's reliability in another 1-2 years though.
killerdeck
02-16-2009, 11:20 AM
If you can avoid selling a vehicle right now, that is worth considering. I just looked at what my 04 ZHP with 29.5K miles would go for, and it was very shocking how badly it has depreciated recently. I could maybe get $21K on a good day. I know that yours is an 03 with much higher mileage. I have seen 03s with 60K going for $16K - $18K on average. Just food for thought.
Audi S4 wagon?
I drove it today in pouring rain, on the left lane where the standing water pockets are, and the thing was unstoppable.
It is much easier to drive than both the GT2 and the E30 in slippery conditions.
BMW will never bring the 335 wagon with a manual to the US. And they likely will never bring any manual 5 wagon with anything BUT a hamster engine.
That leaves Audi, if you are staying German.
CTSV wagon isn't the prettiest thing there is, according to the rendering.
The 535 is available in wagon/manual/AWD form, and the 3.0tt is hardly a hamster engine, even in the 5er.
Of course, it's ugly and expensive, but it is at least fairly fast.
Audi S4 wagon?
I drove it today in pouring rain, on the left lane where the standing water pockets are, and the thing was unstoppable.
It is much easier to drive than both the GT2 and the E30 in slippery conditions.
BMW will never bring the 335 wagon with a manual to the US. And they likely will never bring any manual 5 wagon with anything BUT a hamster engine.
That leaves Audi, if you are staying German.
CTSV wagon isn't the prettiest thing there is, according to the rendering.
They do already have the 535xiT with 300/300, but it's hideous. The next one looks no better so far.
No more S6 avant. Plus they are wicked pricey, heavy, and not very roomy for their size (cargo-wise).
The S4 is an option, but it is small. And like I said, this change would be 2-3 years away making one be out of warranty.
The 535 is available in wagon/manual/AWD form, and the 3.0tt is hardly a hamster engine, even in the 5er.
Of course, it's ugly and expensive, but it is at least fairly fast.
So JST, since you own the thing...
M3 or slushy V70R+weekend sportscar?
FC,
I would look at this as an option soon:
http://www.audiworld.com/news/09/a4-allroad/
EDIT: This may not be headed to the USA.
FC,
I would look at this as an option soon:
http://www.audiworld.com/news/09/a4-allroad/
EDIT: This is assuming that it will be in the USA soon. I don't see why it would not be though.
Ok, let me just say that an A4 3.0TDI quattro w/ stronic would be an awesome thing to replace the V70R despite the small size. But even then, I don't think I'd want to drive it everyday. And right now it's smoke.
If I keep the V70R the Jeep can be a MT too, which my wife doesn't object to.
Ok, let me just say that an A4 3.0TDI quattro w/ stronic would be an awesome thing to replace the V70R despite the small size. But even then, I don't think I'd want to drive it everyday. And right now it's smoke.
If I keep the V70R the Jeep can be a MT too, which my wife doesn't object to.
I agree. I would be first in line for a A4 Avant 3.0TDI Quattro. I miss my old avant and I am itching to replace the RDX. One of these would be perfect for me.
What about the dog? Will the jeep be the new dog hauler?
What about the dog? Will the jeep be the new dog hauler?
Yes. For my typical weeknd runs when I take the dog, the jeep would be it. Also of course, for taking him hiking and or the pond.
On trips to canada I would have to give him most of the cargo area and get full use out of the thule box. Not ideal, but when options are limited...
lupinsea
02-16-2009, 02:44 PM
I'm still thinking a Jeep / Sports Car / V70R line up is a good choice.
The M3, while incredible, would be too similar to the V70R.* It might be nice to have a wildly different car such as a sports car than the Volvo wagon. With the V70R sticking around, a lighte weight, 2-door, RWD, fast, nimble sports car (with or without retractable top) sounds like a whole lotta fun. More fun than an M3.
* Yes, I know the M3 and Volvo V70R are different from one another and significantly so. But they're both 4 door, 5 seater, "practical", heavy-ish cars.
I'm still thinking a Jeep / Sports Car / V70R line up is a good choice.
The M3, while incredible, would be too similar to the V70R.* It might be nice to have a wildly different car such as a sports car than the Volvo wagon. With the V70R sticking around, a lighte weight, 2-door, RWD, fast, nimble sports car (with or without retractable top) sounds like a whole lotta fun. More fun than an M3.
* Yes, I know the M3 and Volvo V70R are different from one another and significantly so. But they're both 4 door, 5 seater, "practical", heavy-ish cars.
You are probably right. I don't need to make the M3 decision now anyway. I'll stick with my plan and re-evaluate next year. If I buy the sportscar and it just never gets used, I'll decide then.
But I think I have to come to terms with the fact that there won't be this mythical fun, MT sportswagon that I will actually enjoy driving everyday.
Based on the above, I could go MT on the JK, but I'm leaning towards keeping the jeep a slushy. I don't know that it really gets me all that much in a car like that and it makes it less flexible in case someone who doesn't drive a stick (most people I know) need to borrow it - which I expect will happen a bunch gine its uniqueness. Plus I hear the MT is tricky in cold weather, and I don't want my wife to complain about that.
lupinsea
02-16-2009, 03:19 PM
Based on the above, I could go MT on the JK, but I'm leaning towards keeping the jeep a slushy. I don't know that it really gets me all that much in a car like that and it makes it less flexible in case someone who doesn't drive a stick (most people I know) need to borrow it - which I expect will happen a bunch gine its uniqueness. Plus I hear the MT is tricky in cold weather, and I don't want my wife to complain about that.
For me I love the automatics out on the trail. I used to drive stick in my 4x4s but one taste of the automatic in "real" offroad conditions and I was hooked. But plenty of guys end up picking the manuals because "they are more fun." Fun is relative here, I think. It'll NEVER be like the "fun" of manual sport sedan or even sports car. Think more along the lines of a manual compact truck kind of fun.
If the household requirement is to have at lease one slushie then stick that in the least "fun" to drive road car which will be the Jeep as the Jeeps are fun in other ways. It gives you more flexibility in selecting a MT for the other cars.
This is only a recommendation. I'd definitely suggest you test drive a 6 spd manual JK Unlimited first. Who knows, maybe you'd want the manual in that after all. It might amp up the fun factor of the Jeep. :dunno:
As for cold weather . . . what would work better in snow and ice, a manual or automatic? Since one major function of the Jeep is maximizing traction in foul weather then if the transmission choice affects anything it might be good to consider, too. I've always thought the automatics were a little easier in snow since you didn't need to worry about feathering the clutch or anything. But my snow driving experience is more limited than people in the NE, I'm sure.
For me I love the automatics out on the trail. I used to drive stick in my 4x4s but one taste of the automatic in "real" offroad conditions and I was hooked. But plenty of guys end up picking the manuals because "they are more fun." Fun is relative here, I think. It'll NEVER be like the "fun" of manual sport sedan or even sports car. Think more along the lines of a manual compact truck kind of fun.
If the household requirement is to have at lease one slushie then stick that in the least "fun" to drive road car which will be the Jeep as the Jeeps are fun in other ways. It gives you more flexibility in selecting a MT for the other cars.
This is only a recommendation. I'd definitely suggest you test drive a 6 spd manual JK Unlimited first. Who knows, maybe you'd want the manual in that after all. It might amp up the fun factor of the Jeep. :dunno:
As for cold weather . . . what would work better in snow and ice, a manual or automatic? Since one major function of the Jeep is maximizing traction in foul weather then if the transmission choice affects anything it might be good to consider, too. I've always thought the automatics were a little easier in snow since you didn't need to worry about feathering the clutch or anything. But my snow driving experience is more limited than people in the NE, I'm sure.
Well, I may end up with two slushies if no MT wagon can be found in the future, but I rather take that chance than having an MT jeep and then being forced to take a slushy wagon when I have the option not to. This jeep is for life.
lupinsea
02-16-2009, 04:54 PM
This jeep is for life.
Werd. :cool:
I'm still thinking a Jeep / Sports Car / V70R line up is a good choice.
The M3, while incredible, would be too similar to the V70R.*
* Yes, I know the M3 and Volvo V70R are different from one another and significantly so. But they're both 4 door, 5 seater, "practical", heavy-ish cars.
Spit take.
Other than the fact that both have four doors and four wheels, the M3 and the V70R are about as different from one another as I am from, say, Anne Hathaway. I mean, we are both bipeds, but the comparison really ends there.
The local dealership has a few M3's and allegedly a 535xiT MT (something tells me it's a typo).
I will test drive the 535xit and see if it is something I could ever consider fun to drive (looks aside). Then I'll test drive the M3. Then I'll drive 2 miles north and test drive a 3.4L 987 for comparison purposes. Ideally I'd have an Elise to drive but no luck there.
lupinsea
02-17-2009, 12:42 PM
Spit take.
Other than the fact that both have four doors and four wheels, the M3 and the V70R are about as different from one another as I am from, say, Anne Hathaway. I mean, we are both bipeds, but the comparison really ends there.
Sure. I agree the M3 and V70R are wildly different.
But I think an M3 would be more similar to a V70R than almost any kind of 2-door dedicated sports car. For all it's amazingness, the M3 seems like another great compromise car. If one could only get one car, fine, M3 seems like a no-brainier for the speed, performance, and handling. But if one has the ability to have multiple cars it seems like it'd be fun to have as much differentiation between them.
Sure. I agree the M3 and V70R are wildly different.
But I think an M3 would be more similar to a V70R than almost any kind of 2-door dedicated sports car. For all it's amazingness, the M3 seems like another great compromise car. If one could only get one car, fine, M3 seems like a no-brainier for the speed, performance, and handling. But if one has the ability to have multiple cars it seems like it'd be fun to have as much differentiation between them.
But remember, my V70R is a slushy, the M3 would be a MT. In my case, the tranny difference is important.
Sure. I agree the M3 and V70R are wildly different.
But I think an M3 would be more similar to a V70R than almost any kind of 2-door dedicated sports car. For all it's amazingness, the M3 seems like another great compromise car. If one could only get one car, fine, M3 seems like a no-brainier for the speed, performance, and handling. But if one has the ability to have multiple cars it seems like it'd be fun to have as much differentiation between them.
I'll comment without having owned it... I went into my m3 test drive expecting little, perhaps that's why it felt so good. I expected almost the same car as my 330i ZSP with more power, sort of like a 335i. While I was still in the parking lot, I felt it was a completely different car, it just happens to look similar. Once I merged to the highway, I was trembling. I'm a fan, it's not as compromised as it seems on paper. I'd take it over a 997S, which in turn is awesome and was my favorite up to this weekend and that car is compromised as well as is pretty much anything.
In handling/feel/lightness, the cayman is up there in not having compromised much (I've never driven a lotus). But it is compromised in space, everyday and last but not least power.
What you lose in the m3 with respect to a porsche depends on which porsche. As they are more comparable, let's take a 997S (-'08). I think the M is more balanced, spacious and a better daily. It's also faster. What you lose is the porsche shape and feel (which in turn is better in the croc). The porsche sound goes away and is replaced by some other good sound.
In summary, it is simply not similar or comparable to a v70R or a 535xit (while I haven't driven it, I drove a 335xi right before the M, different planets). The xi bmw's are sneaky, they feel like a bmw so you expect they'll be good on ownership. After a while, you realize that they have no handling.
lemming
02-17-2009, 05:26 PM
I'll comment without having owned it... I went into my m3 test drive expecting little, perhaps that's why it felt so good. I expected almost the same car as my 330i ZSP with more power, sort of like a 335i. While I was still in the parking lot, I felt it was a completely different car, it just happens to look similar. Once I merged to the highway, I was trembling. I'm a fan, it's not as compromised as it seems on paper. I'd take it over a 997S, which in turn is awesome and was my favorite up to this weekend and that car is compromised as well as is pretty much anything.
In handling/feel/lightness, the cayman is up there in not having compromised much (I've never driven a lotus). But it is compromised in space, everyday and last but not least power.
What you lose in the m3 with respect to a porsche depends on which porsche. As they are more comparable, let's take a 997S (-'08). I think the M is more balanced, spacious and a better daily. It's also faster. What you lose is the porsche shape and feel (which in turn is better in the croc). The porsche sound goes away and is replaced by some other good sound.
In summary, it is simply not similar or comparable to a v70R or a 535xit (while I haven't driven it, I drove a 335xi right before the M, different planets). The xi bmw's are sneaky, they feel like a bmw so you expect they'll be good on ownership. After a while, you realize that they have no handling.
my only complaint is that this car should have been the E46 M3.
:dunno:
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