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View Full Version : E46 M3s are pretty damned fast...


Nick M3
05-23-2004, 08:32 PM
As a corollary, so are WRX STis.

I believe the M3 has a slight edge, but their ability to get on the power sooner makes them tough to catch. Especially given the short straights on the Jefferson Circuit.

I think my M3 gives up significant grip in the corners on street tires, though. That big front sway definitely costs a bit of grip on street tires. Fortunately, I expect I'll have these burned off by the end of the year (if not sooner...) At that point, I will most likely switch to R-tires.

bren
05-23-2004, 09:48 PM
Yes they are....even while staying under 5500 RPM's ;)


So I gather you had fun at the driving school?

Plaz
05-23-2004, 10:06 PM
Were you pleased with the Wankermatic on the track?

Nick M3
05-23-2004, 11:25 PM
Were you pleased with the Wankermatic on the track?

Thrilled with it. :D

It let me grab fourth going down the back straight and get up to 110, instead of forcing me to leave it on the rev limiter at 105 before dropping down to second and hauling out of turn seven. As an aside, the M3's gearing is WAY too tall. Especially with SMG, there is no good reason whatsoever for it to have anything taller than a 4.10 rear end. Heck, it could go shorter than that and I still don't think I'd complain. :D

Note that I left the car is S5. S6 is kind of abusive on an ongoing basis, and frankly, I think it can really upset the car in a way that S5 doesn't.

Nick M3
05-23-2004, 11:26 PM
Yes they are....even while staying under 5500 RPM's ;)


So I gather you had fun at the driving school?

Yep. Did you have fun?

Plaz
05-24-2004, 12:59 AM
Were you pleased with the Wankermatic on the track?

Thrilled with it. :D

It let me grab fourth going down the back straight and get up to 110, instead of forcing me to leave it on the rev limiter at 105 before dropping down to second and hauling out of turn seven. As an aside, the M3's gearing is WAY too tall. Especially with Wankermatic, there is no good reason whatsoever for it to have anything taller than a 4.10 rear end. Heck, it could go shorter than that and I still don't think I'd complain. :D

Note that I left the car is S5. S6 is kind of abusive on an ongoing basis, and frankly, I think it can really upset the car in a way that S5 doesn't.

Sweet. Good to see you're enjoying the tranny (and the car) where it can shine most.

As far as the diff, you wouldn't want BMW to ruin all the fun of Death Valley runs for your short diff east coast mentality. :D

Nick M3
05-24-2004, 07:18 AM
Were you pleased with the Wankermatic on the track?

Thrilled with it. :D

It let me grab fourth going down the back straight and get up to 110, instead of forcing me to leave it on the rev limiter at 105 before dropping down to second and hauling out of turn seven. As an aside, the M3's gearing is WAY too tall. Especially with Wankermatic, there is no good reason whatsoever for it to have anything taller than a 4.10 rear end. Heck, it could go shorter than that and I still don't think I'd complain. :D

Note that I left the car is S5. S6 is kind of abusive on an ongoing basis, and frankly, I think it can really upset the car in a way that S5 doesn't.

Sweet. Good to see you're enjoying the tranny (and the car) where it can shine most.

As far as the diff, you wouldn't want BMW to ruin all the fun of Death Valley runs for your short diff east coast mentality. :D

182MPH in sixth gear isn't enough for you?

With a 4.10, the M3 should JUST BARELY hit 60 in second.

bren
05-24-2004, 09:23 AM
Yes they are....even while staying under 5500 RPM's ;)


So I gather you had fun at the driving school?

Yep. Did you have fun?
Yeah, it was a great time....well worth it. I suppose when I get some time I should start my own thread :D

dan
05-24-2004, 10:01 AM
M3's suck

:D

Nick M3
05-24-2004, 10:07 AM
M3's suck

:D

They're such fatass pigs, I don't know why I bought such a heavy car. :rolleyes:

nate
05-24-2004, 10:38 AM
Get lapped by any E21s?

Plaz
05-24-2004, 10:52 AM
Were you pleased with the Wankermatic on the track?

Thrilled with it. :D

It let me grab fourth going down the back straight and get up to 110, instead of forcing me to leave it on the rev limiter at 105 before dropping down to second and hauling out of turn seven. As an aside, the M3's gearing is WAY too tall. Especially with Wankermatic, there is no good reason whatsoever for it to have anything taller than a 4.10 rear end. Heck, it could go shorter than that and I still don't think I'd complain. :D

Note that I left the car is S5. S6 is kind of abusive on an ongoing basis, and frankly, I think it can really upset the car in a way that S5 doesn't.

Sweet. Good to see you're enjoying the tranny (and the car) where it can shine most.

As far as the diff, you wouldn't want BMW to ruin all the fun of Death Valley runs for your short diff east coast mentality. :D

182MPH in sixth gear isn't enough for you?

With a 4.10, the M3 should JUST BARELY hit 60 in second.

Oh, well, okay, yes, that will do. :lol:

JST
05-24-2004, 10:59 AM
Were you pleased with the Wankermatic on the track?

As an aside, the M3's gearing is WAY too tall. Especially with Wankermatic, there is no good reason whatsoever for it to have anything taller than a 4.10 rear end. Heck, it could go shorter than that and I still don't think I'd complain. :D


Maybe too tall for the track, but it's not too tall for the street or the autocross world. On the autox circuit, shorter gearing would give me more wheelspin (which I don't need) coming out of tight corners and force me to shift into 3rd on some straights (which is not usually required with the current gears).

On the street, the M3 at 80 in 6th is already a touch buzzy. Drop in a 4.10 gearset and it would howl at that speed.

Plus, my gas mileage is bad enough as it is.

The HACK
05-24-2004, 11:56 AM
As a corollary, so are WRX STis.

I believe the M3 has a slight edge, but their ability to get on the power sooner makes them tough to catch. Especially given the short straights on the Jefferson Circuit.

I think my M3 gives up significant grip in the corners on street tires, though. That big front sway definitely costs a bit of grip on street tires. Fortunately, I expect I'll have these burned off by the end of the year (if not sooner...) At that point, I will most likely switch to R-tires.

Tell that to the guy that was riding your @ss all corner...

While at Las Vegas Motor Speedway, I had a case of "HP envy" while stuck behind several E36 and E46 M3s. This one particular Estoril E36 M3 REFUSE to give me a point by no matter how close I'm riding his @ss in the corners. The second the straights opened up, he'd get his foot planted on the gas pedal, and no matter how much I ride him, no pass by signal.

Imagine my frustration to be significantly faster in all other aspect of the track, and only to have it equalized by some dim-wit who refuses to be cooperative on the passing zones that has between 80-165 more HP than I do.

I've come to the conclusion that some drivers with high HP equates HP to driving skills (not directed ay you, nick, in anyway). If you can't drive a low powered, 323Ci fast around the track, you probably can't drive an M3 fast around the track either.

Rant over.

FT@SGP
05-24-2004, 12:55 PM
I think both Nick and I truly had great time. I particularly liked the off-line and no-brake exercises; wow some perspective change after them.

My objectives were quite simple: get the confidence back :). I've talked with my instructor in length prior to getting onto the track about this, and Miriam was very thoughtful to asign Jim Koca to me specifically because he has quite a bit of experience with my types of situations (his nick name is "Crash" :D)

I took it very easy the first two session but gradually building up speed. I gave a lot of point-bys. The second session, I could not catch up to Nick, but was able to maintain the distance. He was able to increase his lead in corner entries, but I would regain it at the exit. He observed it well, it seemed that I could put the power down a little earlier than him. STi's final ratio is 3.9, and it was particularly well suited for the JC; frankly I bearly needed anything other than 4th gear, except 5th on the back straight, closing to about 115 mph or so.

In the afternoon sessions, with most of the confidence back; Jim (my instructor) and I agreed to push a little harder but not exceed 8/10s. At that time, especially with late braking (to keep things cool :smile:) I was able to pass the M3s and open the distance slowly. The only car I could not gain on was Filip's Evo.

The silver M3 driver seemed a little frustrated after the sessions. In the last session, during the first two laps, he came to my tale and immediately gave him the point-by. But then, I closed the gap and I was on his tale. He was opening the gap slightly on the straights, but I could close it at corner exits. Eventually, he game the point-by and just relaxed, and the gap increase quite a bit after that. His perspective was that "I should have been able to do much better with the experience I have" but then he said that he does track events once a year :roll: I am sure I misunderstood something.

Any way, great day and value for the money for me. Now, I can go back to VIR :D

Nick M3
05-24-2004, 02:19 PM
As a corollary, so are WRX STis.

I believe the M3 has a slight edge, but their ability to get on the power sooner makes them tough to catch. Especially given the short straights on the Jefferson Circuit.

I think my M3 gives up significant grip in the corners on street tires, though. That big front sway definitely costs a bit of grip on street tires. Fortunately, I expect I'll have these burned off by the end of the year (if not sooner...) At that point, I will most likely switch to R-tires.

Tell that to the guy that was riding your @ss all corner...

While at Las Vegas Motor Speedway, I had a case of "HP envy" while stuck behind several E36 and E46 M3s. This one particular Estoril E36 M3 REFUSE to give me a point by no matter how close I'm riding his @ss in the corners. The second the straights opened up, he'd get his foot planted on the gas pedal, and no matter how much I ride him, no pass by signal.

Imagine my frustration to be significantly faster in all other aspect of the track, and only to have it equalized by some dim-wit who refuses to be cooperative on the passing zones that has between 80-165 more HP than I do.

I've come to the conclusion that some drivers with high HP equates HP to driving skills (not directed ay you, nick, in anyway). If you can't drive a low powered, 323Ci fast around the track, you probably can't drive an M3 fast around the track either.

Rant over.

The only two people capable of riding my ass in the corners (in my run group) were Fatih and a silver STi. They were the only two people whom I waved by, and they both waved me by at other points as well. I'm very impressed with the STis in action.

As for your comment as a general matter, I completely agree with you. At my first school I was horribly frustrated by this guy in an M Coupe who would drop me in the straights but block me in the corners.

Fatih and I were both promoted to the B run group for this school, and I have to say that really made it quite a bit more enjoyable. Everyone knew how and when to give a point by. Well, except for a couple folks who gave me point bys at corner entrances.

Nick M3
05-24-2004, 02:21 PM
By the way...

What tires were you on, Fatih?

FT@SGP
05-24-2004, 02:29 PM
By the way...

What tires were you on, Fatih?

Yes, that probably made part of the difference at the corners and braking; Toyo RA-1s. I am very pleased with them, very well all around.

Nick M3
05-24-2004, 02:35 PM
By the way...

What tires were you on, Fatih?

Yes, that probably made part of the difference at the corners and braking; Toyo RA-1s. I am very pleased with them, very well all around.

I'd imagine that a bit more track experience and earlier throttle application helped too.

Coming out of the corners, the WRXes would just leap forward in a way that I simply could not match. It was very interesting to watch.

FT@SGP
05-24-2004, 02:40 PM
Interestingly, my instructor commented couple of times that I was applying the throttle a little too early, specifically on the exit of T7; so last two session, I waited just a tad more before applying full throttle; but I was partial and steady throttle at all corners.

Wanna do it again??? :D

Nick M3
05-24-2004, 02:43 PM
I'll be there in June. :D

I'm actually really curious about how the cars will compare on the Summit Point main straight. I *think* the M3 has a slight edge, but the Jefferson Circuit was too short for me to tell.

FT@SGP
05-24-2004, 02:52 PM
I'll be there in June. :D

I'm actually really curious about how the cars will compare on the Summit Point main straight. I *think* the M3 has a slight edge, but the Jefferson Circuit was too short for me to tell.
My current plan is to be at VIR the same weekend, I did not register for SP :( and :smile:

Nick M3
05-24-2004, 03:37 PM
Chicken. ;)

bren
05-24-2004, 08:36 PM
On the street, the M3 at 80 in 6th is already a touch buzzy. Drop in a 4.10 gearset and it would howl at that speed.

Plus, my gas mileage is bad enough as it is.
I noticed on the drive home from Atlanta that without paying attention to my speed and just listening to the engine I would tend to settle in just below 80, it just sounded right. Sustaining higher speeds than that would get quite tiresome.

I was actually very pleased with the highway mileage. I averaged 23 MPG in just over 950 miles at an average speed of 65 (per the OBC)

JST
05-24-2004, 09:55 PM
On the street, the M3 at 80 in 6th is already a touch buzzy. Drop in a 4.10 gearset and it would howl at that speed.

Plus, my gas mileage is bad enough as it is.
I noticed on the drive home from Atlanta that without paying attention to my speed and just listening to the engine I would tend to settle in just below 80, it just sounded right. Sustaining higher speeds than that would get quite tiresome.

I was actually very pleased with the highway mileage. I averaged 23 MPG in just over 950 miles at an average speed of 65 (per the OBC)

From what I hear, the OBC reads high, though I haven't done a comparison in a while.

The mileage isn't bad, given the power the car has. I average about 21 per the OBC for all driving, which includes a stop and go commute in the morning. Oh, and the OBC doesn't read below 5.9 mpg for some reason.

FT@SGP
05-24-2004, 10:27 PM
Chicken. ;)

LOL.

Come try running at those 17-20 turns at VIR, then we'll see the chicken :lol:

lemming
05-24-2004, 10:28 PM
not only are m3s damn fast.....but they're also more fluid than the STi's as well.

it takes a lot more concentration to get the STI's to turn in properly (do not forget the weight distribution is 60/40) and the front LSD requires some serious getting used to.

no doubt about the ability to put the power down sooner, though --just not as fluid a handling a car as the m3s are.

(helps to be on toyo ra-1's).

great thread!

FT@SGP
05-24-2004, 11:02 PM
not only are m3s damn fast.....but they're also more fluid than the STi's as well.

it takes a lot more concentration to get the STI's to turn in properly (do not forget the weight distribution is 60/40) and the front LSD requires some serious getting used to.

no doubt about the ability to put the power down sooner, though --just not as fluid a handling a car as the m3s are.

(helps to be on toyo ra-1's).

great thread!
I have to agree. Driving the STi at the level we do at the track is much more difficult than driving my 330. With the Bimmer, I immediately felt at home and it was very easy to build up speed. In the STi, especially with the DCCD in Auto, the front end is unpredictable; you just don't know when it will loose grip.

I have been running the autocrosses and track with the center diff in open and torque locked to 35f/65r, and things are much more predictable, and it is easier to push the car. I think however, the DCCD in Auto gives best results in the rain, not that my rainy track-day ended with good results :) but I think Auto is the way to go during slippery conditions.

Nick M3
05-24-2004, 11:17 PM
Ordered a set of PFC97s today. I don't even want to think about whether or not I'll have them before my next school. Now, the ATE Typ200 needs to go in the car ASAP. The crap that's in there is more air than fluid. It's less than optimal.

To say the least.

ZHPhil
05-25-2004, 08:21 AM
4.10? :?

I guess you don't care about 'em 167mph at 8000rpm in 5th gear then. :roll:

On another note, I helped my buddy pick up his 04 SG M3 with Xenon and Wankermatic only from Monty, and he wanted to see how it's done. :cool:

So I um, got my friend BUtthead to drive zie M Drei and showed him a thing or two, with DSC off. :twisted:

Don't worry boys and girls, Butthead did not exceed 105mph. The M3, according to Butthead, now that he's driven both the Turbo and it, actually masks speed better. Butthead played guessing game with my friend about speed, and needless to say, my friend was thrilled to know that 105 felt like 40 in his Camry. :shock:

BTW, my friend is also signed up for Butt-on-willow. He WILL be turned into a track junkie. And I is the pimp. :cool:

Note to self, If you make it to SoCal skip the amusement parks and go for ride with Butthead and Stuka :awe: :tongue: :paranoid:

nate
05-31-2004, 11:23 PM
Ordered a set of PFC97s today. I don't even want to think about whether or not I'll have them before my next school. Now, the ATE Typ200 needs to go in the car ASAP. The crap that's in there is more air than fluid. It's less than optimal.

To say the least.

PFC97s are good pads.