View Full Version : Autoxing the M3, take two...
Nick M3
05-08-2004, 11:49 PM
So, it's safe to say that today went one hell of a lot better than it did at my first real autox in the M3. Not only did I take third in A-Stock, but I also had six tenths on a guy that beat me by FIVE seconds last weekend. Methinks the M3 is starting to come together for me.
I think a few adjustments will improve things a little bit further, but I'm quite happy with how the car's turning out.
Edit: More to the point, I know I left a SOLID two seconds out on that course, with another three or so possible. If I'd actually taken a decent line and gotten my eye further than two cones ahead (there were times when I was back to staring at the roundel), I'd DEFINITELY have had a 50.x. Oh well.
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos...
So the new wheels are on?
Did I miss the pictures? :?
So, it's safe to say that today went one hell of a lot better than it did at my first real autox in the M3. Not only did I take third in A-Stock, but I also had six tenths on a guy that beat me by FIVE seconds last weekend. Methinks the M3 is starting to come together for me.
I think a few adjustments will improve things a little bit further, but I'm quite happy with how the car's turning out.
Edit: More to the point, I know I left a SOLID two seconds out on that course, with another three or so possible. If I'd actually taken a decent line and gotten my eye further than two cones ahead (there were times when I was back to staring at the roundel), I'd DEFINITELY have had a 50.x. Oh well.
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
So, how much of the improvement do you attribute to the tires, by themselves?
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
That sounds outrageously high to me.
What is a Hoho?
clyde
05-09-2004, 10:58 AM
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
That sounds outrageously high to me.
What is a Hoho?
You obviously aren't familiar with the latest Hoosiers.
Nick M3
05-09-2004, 11:05 AM
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
That sounds outrageously high to me.
What is a Hoho?
Hoosiers installed in front on an M3 may cord withing three or so autoxes if they aren't run at pressures around there.
Nick M3
05-09-2004, 11:06 AM
So, it's safe to say that today went one hell of a lot better than it did at my first real autox in the M3. Not only did I take third in A-Stock, but I also had six tenths on a guy that beat me by FIVE seconds last weekend. Methinks the M3 is starting to come together for me.
I think a few adjustments will improve things a little bit further, but I'm quite happy with how the car's turning out.
Edit: More to the point, I know I left a SOLID two seconds out on that course, with another three or so possible. If I'd actually taken a decent line and gotten my eye further than two cones ahead (there were times when I was back to staring at the roundel), I'd DEFINITELY have had a 50.x. Oh well.
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
So, how much of the improvement do you attribute to the tires, by themselves?
50/50
I drove one hell of a lot better today, and the car just WORKED a hell of a lot better today. I'm also forced to conclude that the front sway works pretty poorly with the street tires. I think I'm going to have to adjust it to full soft when I'm not running.
clyde
05-09-2004, 11:11 AM
Um, shouldn't this thread be in "Going Faster"? :paranoid:
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
That sounds outrageously high to me.
What is a Hoho?
You obviously aren't familiar with the latest Hoosiers.
Ah, I thought he was on street tires.
lemming
05-09-2004, 11:43 AM
nice work, nikolai.
what did the m3 come with as OEM tires? conti's? pS2?
So, it's safe to say that today went one hell of a lot better than it did at my first real autox in the M3. Not only did I take third in A-Stock, but I also had six tenths on a guy that beat me by FIVE seconds last weekend. Methinks the M3 is starting to come together for me.
I think a few adjustments will improve things a little bit further, but I'm quite happy with how the car's turning out.
Edit: More to the point, I know I left a SOLID two seconds out on that course, with another three or so possible. If I'd actually taken a decent line and gotten my eye further than two cones ahead (there were times when I was back to staring at the roundel), I'd DEFINITELY have had a 50.x. Oh well.
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
Belated congratulations, Nick--3rd in A stock is certainly nothing to sneeze at.
Rant on.
Having said that, I've got to vent a bit. I frigging DETEST the SCCA's so-called "stock" classification rules. As Nick himself pointed out, his improvement is partly better driving, but is also partly due to his willingness to spend huge money on a dedicated set of wheels and Hoosier performance tires. That's fine, and I certainly understand that there are people out there willing to spend a lot more on autocrossing than I am. What pisses me off is that there isn't any sort of class that is even marginally competitive for people who don't want to/can't blow $1000 a season on dedicated race tires--in addition to the $1000/year I ALREADY spend on freaking street tires.
Seriously, I wonder what the point of continuing to compete is. I know I've got a lot of room to improve my driving, but as long as I'm classed with a bunch of people running race tires, I'm basically relegated to the back of the pack no matter how good I get. Even more annoying, since the SCCA rules make no distinction between R and non-R rubber, I can't even tell from the results who is and who isn't running R tires, and thus have absolutely no basis to compare my times.
It's such a fucking pain in the ass, especially when you consider that the asinine stock rules prevent me from running 17" street wheels on my WRX, too. I mean, those might actually be useful on a day to day basis, but no. 16" race rubber? Sure, no problem. That's "stock." But 17" street rubber? Suddenly I have to compete with everyone in freaking STX.
Again, I point out that I have no problem with the idea that there are going to be folks that spend assloads of money on mods and tires, and who even base their car buying decisions on what is and is not competitive in autocross. More power to these folks (in some cases literally). But it really bugs me that there's no way for amateur, non-serious folks to come out and compete against one another without ponying up the long green for gold plated tires.
Rant over.
FT@SGP
05-09-2004, 02:45 PM
Aah, I posted in the NCC group congratulating Nick, hadn't seen this thread.
Nick, I think you were the suprise of the day for sure, one heck of an improvement in a combined manner; tremendous job.
JST, I certainly do understand your point and many people for this reason expressed their desire for our autocrosses to exclude R-comps from stock classes.
However, if you are not running for the top spot any how, why would you worry about how SCCA does its class rules? If you start running within 2 to 2.5 seconds of the top spots, then you may start thinking about a set of wheels and R-comps, but your goal should be to run within those time frames.
If you look at Burak in AS, all he has is a set of rally wheels (~$1500) and set of R-compound (not the A-comp) 303 Hoosiers (~$1000). Those Hoosiers will last him probably all season with good rotation (which is more difficult for you however). But at the end, for $2500, which he won't have to spend $1500 of it again next year, he is at the top of the class. So, if you are at a point in which only $1000 is seperating you from the top 3 spots, I don't think there is anything to complain IMHO.
I am running Toyo RA-1s, and I am hoping they will go the season including all the track events that I'll be doing. There is a change we might get Hoosiers, but with all other costs of running in ESP, we'll see...
Nick M3
05-09-2004, 03:14 PM
One thing I really need to figure out is how to launch the M3. I tried using launch control yesterday and had one major problem. While it stopped wheel spin during the clutch drop, as soon as I hit about 2500RPMs the tires would start spinning. I need to figure out how to launch this car, but I'll bet I can find half a second right at the start.
I think I'll have to give up on LC to get decent launches.... I used it for all my runs yesterday for the sake of consistency.
clyde
05-09-2004, 05:19 PM
So, it's safe to say that today went one hell of a lot better than it did at my first real autox in the M3. Not only did I take third in A-Stock, but I also had six tenths on a guy that beat me by FIVE seconds last weekend. Methinks the M3 is starting to come together for me.
I think a few adjustments will improve things a little bit further, but I'm quite happy with how the car's turning out.
Edit: More to the point, I know I left a SOLID two seconds out on that course, with another three or so possible. If I'd actually taken a decent line and gotten my eye further than two cones ahead (there were times when I was back to staring at the roundel), I'd DEFINITELY have had a 50.x. Oh well.
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
Belated congratulations, Nick--3rd in A stock is certainly nothing to sneeze at.
Rant on.
Having said that, I've got to vent a bit. I frigging DETEST the SCCA's so-called "stock" classification rules. As Nick himself pointed out, his improvement is partly better driving, but is also partly due to his willingness to spend huge money on a dedicated set of wheels and Hoosier performance tires. That's fine, and I certainly understand that there are people out there willing to spend a lot more on autocrossing than I am. What pisses me off is that there isn't any sort of class that is even marginally competitive for people who don't want to/can't blow $1000 a season on dedicated race tires--in addition to the $1000/year I ALREADY spend on freaking street tires.
Seriously, I wonder what the point of continuing to compete is. I know I've got a lot of room to improve my driving, but as long as I'm classed with a bunch of people running race tires, I'm basically relegated to the back of the pack no matter how good I get. Even more annoying, since the SCCA rules make no distinction between R and non-R rubber, I can't even tell from the results who is and who isn't running R tires, and thus have absolutely no basis to compare my times.
It's such a fucking pain in the ass, especially when you consider that the asinine stock rules prevent me from running 17" street wheels on my WRX, too. I mean, those might actually be useful on a day to day basis, but no. 16" race rubber? Sure, no problem. That's "stock." But 17" street rubber? Suddenly I have to compete with everyone in freaking STX.
Again, I point out that I have no problem with the idea that there are going to be folks that spend assloads of money on mods and tires, and who even base their car buying decisions on what is and is not competitive in autocross. More power to these folks (in some cases literally). But it really bugs me that there's no way for amateur, non-serious folks to come out and compete against one another without ponying up the long green for gold plated tires.
Rant over.
In no particular order...
Some regions get around this by running parallel non-R classes. I wouldn't be shy about posting to the wdcr-solo list to gauge interest. If there's enough, I'm sure the Garfield regime would do the right thing next year.
Until then...
You can figure out who is running what types of tires by checking the entry lists (which now show class) the night before and looking for the cars in grid. It's worth making a little effort
In terms of running 17" wheels on the Scooby, you can talk to the others running in DS and ask them if they had a problem with you running 17" wheels with street rubber. My best guess is that they won't have a problem.
I'm willing to wager that Nick wouldn't have done any better yesterday had he been on a set of Kumho or Toyo Rs (and I doubt that I would have turned worse times with one of those instead of Hoosiers the two times that I've run them). There's nothing to stop you from running Toyo RA-1s on your car seven days a week. In all forms of racing, "how fast do you want to do want go?" is answered with "how much do you want to spend?" Eliminate R comps from stock and people will be more willing to pay ever increasing amounts for better shocks. The only end to it is allowing only bone stock cars with OEM replacement parts...and that's just protest city waiting to happen.
Two years ago, I felt largely the same way as you. There's still a lot that baffles and boggles my mind about Solo II rules and classings, but the more that I've read and learned about the history of the tire rules, the more comfortable that I've become with them. There is a certain damned if you do, damned if you don't set of consequences in effect
If you really wanted to be competitive in autocrossing, you wouldn't be using an E46 M3. $6k (or less) can get you into a nationally competitive car with enough tires to last a 25 event season. And when you're done with it, you can sell the car for what you paid for it.
If you don't really want to be competitive, what does it matter? And why bother running in class? Just register for fun runs in the first morning heat, work the second heat and you can be on your way by 11ish.
So, it's safe to say that today went one hell of a lot better than it did at my first real autox in the M3. Not only did I take third in A-Stock, but I also had six tenths on a guy that beat me by FIVE seconds last weekend. Methinks the M3 is starting to come together for me.
I think a few adjustments will improve things a little bit further, but I'm quite happy with how the car's turning out.
Edit: More to the point, I know I left a SOLID two seconds out on that course, with another three or so possible. If I'd actually taken a decent line and gotten my eye further than two cones ahead (there were times when I was back to staring at the roundel), I'd DEFINITELY have had a 50.x. Oh well.
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
Belated congratulations, Nick--3rd in A stock is certainly nothing to sneeze at.
Rant on.
Having said that, I've got to vent a bit. I frigging DETEST the SCCA's so-called "stock" classification rules. As Nick himself pointed out, his improvement is partly better driving, but is also partly due to his willingness to spend huge money on a dedicated set of wheels and Hoosier performance tires. That's fine, and I certainly understand that there are people out there willing to spend a lot more on autocrossing than I am. What pisses me off is that there isn't any sort of class that is even marginally competitive for people who don't want to/can't blow $1000 a season on dedicated race tires--in addition to the $1000/year I ALREADY spend on freaking street tires.
Seriously, I wonder what the point of continuing to compete is. I know I've got a lot of room to improve my driving, but as long as I'm classed with a bunch of people running race tires, I'm basically relegated to the back of the pack no matter how good I get. Even more annoying, since the SCCA rules make no distinction between R and non-R rubber, I can't even tell from the results who is and who isn't running R tires, and thus have absolutely no basis to compare my times.
It's such a fucking pain in the ass, especially when you consider that the asinine stock rules prevent me from running 17" street wheels on my WRX, too. I mean, those might actually be useful on a day to day basis, but no. 16" race rubber? Sure, no problem. That's "stock." But 17" street rubber? Suddenly I have to compete with everyone in freaking STX.
Again, I point out that I have no problem with the idea that there are going to be folks that spend assloads of money on mods and tires, and who even base their car buying decisions on what is and is not competitive in autocross. More power to these folks (in some cases literally). But it really bugs me that there's no way for amateur, non-serious folks to come out and compete against one another without ponying up the long green for gold plated tires.
Rant over.
In no particular order...
Some regions get around this by running parallel non-R classes. I wouldn't be shy about posting to the wdcr-solo list to gauge interest. If there's enough, I'm sure the Garfield regime would do the right thing next year.
Until then...
You can figure out who is running what types of tires by checking the entry lists (which now show class) the night before and looking for the cars in grid. It's worth making a little effort
In terms of running 17" wheels on the Scooby, you can talk to the others running in DS and ask them if they had a problem with you running 17" wheels with street rubber. My best guess is that they won't have a problem.
I'm willing to wager that Nick wouldn't have done any better yesterday had he been on a set of Kumho or Toyo Rs (and I doubt that I would have turned worse times with one of those instead of Hoosiers the two times that I've run them). There's nothing to stop you from running Toyo RA-1s on your car seven days a week. In all forms of racing, "how fast do you want to do want go?" is answered with "how much do you want to spend?" Eliminate R comps from stock and people will be more willing to pay ever increasing amounts for better shocks. The only end to it is allowing only bone stock cars with OEM replacement parts...and that's just protest city waiting to happen.
Two years ago, I felt largely the same way as you. There's still a lot that baffles and boggles my mind about Solo II rules and classings, but the more that I've read and learned about the history of the tire rules, the more comfortable that I've become with them. There is a certain damned if you do, damned if you don't set of consequences in effect
If you really wanted to be competitive in autocrossing, you wouldn't be using an E46 M3. $6k (or less) can get you into a nationally competitive car with enough tires to last a 25 event season. And when you're done with it, you can sell the car for what you paid for it.
If you don't really want to be competitive, what does it matter? And why bother running in class? Just register for fun runs in the first morning heat, work the second heat and you can be on your way by 11ish.
FT and clyde, both good points. If I were good enough to strike for the top three in AS regularly, maybe I wouldn't have a problem spending the money. OTOH, I suspect I am more likely to be the first man on Mars than I am to be able to convince relevant decisionmakers that $1K in racing tires and $1500 in wheels is a good idea. But that's a personal problem.
And clyde, you're right. To really be competitive, I need to have a different car. The Miata idea still percolates in my brain. But one of the things I like about autocrossing, as I've said before, is it gives me a chance to explore the limits of the M3. If I didn't use the M3 to autocross, I'd never really get to push it. Maybe that's the answer--buy a GTO or some other non-autocross car that I don't mind never taking to the track, etc., along with a Miata to play with on the autox circuit. We'll see.
I still feel that there is room for a true "showroom" class. I understand the problems with shocks, though ISTM that the easy way to solve that problem is to say that replacing the shocks with anything other than OEM bumps you into a "mild mod" category, wherein things like tires, sways, etc. would all be allowable. You'd basically take the lower echelon of SP and the upper echelon of what is now stock and make it a separate class.
I also think that, if you are going to allow changes in shocks and R compounds in "stock," you shold allow people to use any size wheels that will fit without bodywork or suspension modification. After all, people who buy R comps generally buy new wheels to put them on, so restricting diameters/widths doesn't hold costs down much, if at all. And, from a performance standpoint, it's clear that a 17" v. 16" street tire doesn't buy you nearly the performance improvement that 16" street v. 16" R does.
Nick M3
05-09-2004, 06:22 PM
You do realize that allowing wheel size changes in stock classes pretty much automatically addes $1500-5000 to the cost of competing? If you want a set of beat up OEM wheels, I can probably get you a set for $500. Throw V700s on there and you're set for $1500 total.
Edit: And you don't give yourself enough credit, Josh. I certainly don't think you're a worse driver than I am.
clyde
05-09-2004, 06:25 PM
FT and clyde, both good points. If I were good enough to strike for the top three in AS regularly, maybe I wouldn't have a problem spending the money. OTOH, I suspect I am more likely to be the first man on Mars than I am to be able to convince relevant decisionmakers that $1K in racing tires and $1500 in wheels is a good idea. But that's a personal problem.
And clyde, you're right. To really be competitive, I need to have a different car. The Miata idea still percolates in my brain. But one of the things I like about autocrossing, as I've said before, is it gives me a chance to explore the limits of the M3. If I didn't use the M3 to autocross, I'd never really get to push it. Maybe that's the answer--buy a GTO or some other non-autocross car that I don't mind never taking to the track, etc., along with a Miata to play with on the autox circuit. We'll see.
I still feel that there is room for a true "showroom" class. I understand the problems with shocks, though ISTM that the easy way to solve that problem is to say that replacing the shocks with anything other than OEM bumps you into a "mild mod" category, wherein things like tires, sways, etc. would all be allowable. You'd basically take the lower echelon of SP and the upper echelon of what is now stock and make it a separate class.
I also think that, if you are going to allow changes in shocks and R compounds in "stock," you shold allow people to use any size wheels that will fit without bodywork or suspension modification. After all, people who buy R comps generally buy new wheels to put them on, so restricting diameters/widths doesn't hold costs down much, if at all. And, from a performance standpoint, it's clear that a 17" v. 16" street tire doesn't buy you nearly the performance improvement that 16" street v. 16" R does.
This is why I don't spend much time questioning the SCCA Solo II rules anymore. The inconsistencies and rules working at cross purposes to apparent intent makes my head hurt. Much simpler to ask what are the rules concerning [this]? Look at the rule book (and ask for clarification if needed) and go with it. I find that this approach works well in helping me perform my day job to the best of my ability as well :paranoid: but that's neither here nor there.
Honestly, the talk of R comp expense kind of loses it's righteousness as the value of the car goes up. It's one thing for someone in a 12 year old Civic to bitch about R comp expense, but it's something else entirely when it comes from someone in a $50k+ car. Just to illustrate with an example...if that $50k+ car driver were to "downgrade" to a <$30k car with similar (overall) performance but was classed more advantageously, that would seem to leave a lot of money left over for fancy wheels and tires...But only if one were serious about being competitive. It's a point that you made in your original rant. Still, if being competitive isn't the goal, what does it matter what you run, where you run it and what tires you run on it?
FWIW, no E46 M3 has beaten a certain RX-8 this year at a WDCR-SCCA event (just don't talk to its driver about a certain yellow E36 M3, a silver S2000 or silver 1999 M Coupe).
Nick M3
05-09-2004, 11:47 PM
Here's the in car video. Man oh man did I leave a LOT of room for improvement. You're going to see some pretty scrappy driving. (And yes, I got lost on the first run.)
http://www.nrubenstein.com/video/2004.05.08%20-%20WDCR-SCCA%203.WMV
clyde
05-10-2004, 01:08 AM
Here's the in car video. Man oh man did I leave a LOT of room for improvement. You're going to see some pretty scrappy driving. (And yes, I got lost on the first run.)
http://www.nrubenstein.com/video/2004.05.08%20-%20WDCR-SCCA%203.WMV
WMV? :roll:
:P
Nick M3
05-10-2004, 10:26 AM
http://nrubenstein.dreamhost.com/2004.05.08%20-%20WDCR-SCCA%203.WMV
The HACK
05-10-2004, 11:12 AM
You know to "beef up" your suspension when you run with R-comps, right?
I've heard that the stress put on the suspension bits when running with tires that has tremendously more grip than street tires can result in premature suspension failure, like shocks and bushings. I mean it's never a bad idea to beef up those components if you track or autocross regularly anyway, but every track veteran and instructors I've spoken with recommended serious upgrades to the suspension to handle the additional stress with the R-comps, especially on a fat pig of a car like the E46 M3.
Nick M3
05-10-2004, 11:15 AM
The car is basically A-Stock prepped. That means shocks and front sway. Bushings, etc. would put me into ASP with modded Z06es.
You know to "beef up" your suspension when you run with R-comps, right?
I've heard that the stress put on the suspension bits when running with tires that has tremendously more grip than street tires can result in premature suspension failure, like shocks and bushings. I mean it's never a bad idea to beef up those components if you track or autocross regularly anyway, but every track veteran and instructors I've spoken with recommended serious upgrades to the suspension to handle the additional stress with the R-comps, especially on a fat pig of a car like the E46 M3.
The problem with that advice is that beefing up most of these components will put you out of stock class.
The HACK
05-10-2004, 11:48 AM
The car is basically A-Stock prepped. That means shocks and front sway. Bushings, etc. would put me into ASP with modded Z06es.
I guess you better stock up on replacement bushings then.
At least the M3 uses bushing inserts rather than one-piece, bushing and bracket design that the regular E46es use.
Nick M3
05-10-2004, 11:50 AM
The car is basically A-Stock prepped. That means shocks and front sway. Bushings, etc. would put me into ASP with modded Z06es.
I guess you better stock up on replacement bushings then.
At least the M3 uses bushing inserts rather than one-piece, bushing and bracket design that the regular E46es use.
It helps a lot that we're talking about 4 minutes of driving on R-tires in a day versus 1-2 hours.
But yes, I expect that I'll replace a lot of that stuff fairly frequently. :p
So, it's safe to say that today went one hell of a lot better than it did at my first real autox in the M3. Not only did I take third in A-Stock, but I also had six tenths on a guy that beat me by FIVE seconds last weekend. Methinks the M3 is starting to come together for me.
I think a few adjustments will improve things a little bit further, but I'm quite happy with how the car's turning out.
Edit: More to the point, I know I left a SOLID two seconds out on that course, with another three or so possible. If I'd actually taken a decent line and gotten my eye further than two cones ahead (there were times when I was back to staring at the roundel), I'd DEFINITELY have had a 50.x. Oh well.
FWIW, tire pressures in the Hohos were 55F/50R. I'm VERY happy with the front pressures, but per my observation and Mark Sipe's commentary I'm going to drop the rears a fair bit. 55/40 is my current target.
So, how much of the improvement do you attribute to the tires, by themselves?
50/50
I drove one hell of a lot better today, and the car just WORKED a hell of a lot better today. I'm also forced to conclude that the front sway works pretty poorly with the street tires. I think I'm going to have to adjust it to full soft when I'm not running.
I didn't realize that you also had the Konis in for this autocross.
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