View Full Version : My crazy plan
Read at your own risk...
The logic of the plan is pretty simple, really. The wagon stays for a few more years, so the 330i needs to be replaced with car(s) that can do what the 330i does, while giving me a novelty/fun fix.
I see 3 options:
1) New sedan: Sure, new car, probably better performance, but no "new" feel, and there's no new car that really makes me want it - except for maybe the M3 or CTS-V, but that's a LOT of money and a pretty delicate/nice car for the use it would get. May still test drive one for the heck of it.
2) 911 + SUV: The 911 would theoretically allow me to drive it to work here and there but I would still need a 3rd car for the winter months. Realistically though, the 911 is much too small to use for "commuting" with 3 or 4 people and too expensive for not being used all that often and requiring a 3rd car - and too nice to have young children abuse it.
3) Weekend sportscar + Wrangler unltd: Like option 2, this option needs to deal with the fact that we need 2 cars that can seat 4 that can also be driven in the winter. The jeep takes care of the messy duties and more thanks to it's flexible format and the weekend sportscar can be more of thrill and different from a mainstream car. This setup allows for something extreme like an Elise, etc.
Keep in mind that all these options work on the premise that on ~2012 the V70R will be replaced with a MT wagon.
This thread (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=624943) is putting some dangerous thoughts in my mind.
Neither the jeep nor the sports car will have the practicality of the zhp. You may want to live with a car for a few months before you see if it works in its role (especially if you're trying to force them into roles they weren't designed for or where they are sub-optimal to the zhp, which btw is most of daily use).
Another thing to remember is that a car like an elise is for a track junkie. (Sort of like a jeep being for a trail junkie). Be sure that these will actually be hobbies (that you like and have time for) before you plunk down the cash.
E.g., I expected to do some auto-x or track with the cayman when I bought it 2 years ago. So far I've done none, which is a shame. Twice or thrice, I did a country drive that got a bit excited and on rare occasions, I've enjoyed it in other undisclosed ways. But, 99% of the time, I'm driving it too softly. Fortunately, it's a smooth and comfy car and gives pleasure off the track. Most of that go for other sports cars as well, miata/s2000 (top down fun), boxster/z4 et al. But the lotus? If you're not tracking your zhp regularly, what makes you think you'll track your elise? But hey, it is a cool little car, no doubt about it.
Somehow your thinking seems very muddled to me. Lup wins the clearest perseveration award, Ed is somewhere in the middle (with some odd zed fixation) and you, my friend, you are who this forum is made for. :)
I understand track/autox and wheelin' are what the cars were desinged for and I'd be leaving lots of performance unused, but they can still be fun. I also plan on using the current and future wagon as the daily driver. Plus I may do nothing for as much as another 1.5 years.
There's a lot of things you take for granted in your zhp that you're going to give up. Like the turning radius, or the stereo (which is pretty average but the porsche is much worse), or the entry/exit (no elise but the porsche is no 3er either) not worrying about the walmart parking lot, or that the little porsche that's not that much faster than the zhp burns a lot more gas and on and on.
If you stay in urban or suburban areas 99% of the time, both the track car and the off-roader are going to be a bit of drag. I understand the purist POV, you want the real thing in each... But a somewhat more compromised SUV and a somewhat compromised sports car are going to do better in 99% of what you do.
But they are fun too, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I've been thinking about this particular 4-runner. Don't ask why, something is wrong with me.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=254548098
Sorry didn't mean to hijack. I'm not even thinking about that car, but that I saved it to my autotrader shows that something is wrong with me.
My two cars don't get driven enough. I've noticed that if I drive them each more than 1-2 times a week which I mostly make a point of doing, more like 3-4 times a week, they feel "better".
lupinsea
11-12-2008, 11:44 PM
I dunnno, seems to make a lot of logical sense to me. And it's a plan I used to run myself and hope to get back to someday when I can trade the ZHP for a sportscar / roadster.
The ZHP is a great compromise car. . . . compromise. It does a whole lot of things very well but it's compromised in many areas. It's been fun but since we got our own Volvo wagon that's become the family car. I can't remember the last time we went anywhere and I had more than 2 people in the ZHP. Heck, it's been a while since I had more than just me (though I do take Nathan into daycare in the mornings).
Anyways . . .
If he's replacing it with two different cars, why not get cars that are at complete opposite ends of the experiential spectrum and better optimized for their particular roles. And frankly, an Elise/911/S2000/Miata and Jeep can't get much further apart.
The sports car can then be more toward the sports car extreme since you don't need to worry about hauling around a lot of people or picking up stuff. That's what the SUV is for.
And the SUV can be fulfiled by the Jeep (which generally has poor handling and an anemic engine) because your have your dedicated sports car for your fun sporty pavement driving. Yet for an SUV the Jeep is a ton of fun because you can drop the top as a 4-door convertible, haul the whole family, and take care of a lot of tasks the sports car can't handle, and just plow through some crappy weather and road conditions that would stop the V0R and a sports car cold. And the Jeep has the ZHP beat hands down for cargo volume. I think the 3 series trunk is ~10.6 cu ft. The Unlimites have up to 82 cu ft of cargo area. Oh, plus they'll handle crappy weather conditions a whole lot better and handle the rougher roads FC was talking about (that he was concerned about beating the V70R up on).
And for longer family trips if they don't want to take the Jeep they always have the V70R.
You know, just because the Jeep can go offroad doesn't mean it can't be perfectly at home in the 'burbs or around town. They don't have to be jacked up with knobby tires and outfitted for the trail. The Unlimiteds have a bit longer wheel base but my Jeep has a very tight turning radius on it. It's a lot easier to park in down town with it's 93" wheel base and narrow width than the ZHP, and I don't have to worry about door dings or people cuffing a bumper coming and going from parallel parking spaces. They're more liable to damage their car than my Jeep. And with it's boxy shape and big window area it has good visibility.
Unless you need the towing, really need more refinement, or a 3rd row seating I think Jeeps are a really fun, unique vehicle that fulfils MANY SUVs duties yet offer completely different driving experiences than . . . any other vehicle on the road.
Note to FC: I'd still suggest you test drive the Jeep extensively first. They're definitely something different that lack a lot of refinement (but they're fun this way in my mind). Also, with the different transmission and axle gear ratio options test drive a bunch. My recomendation:
Unlimited w/ stick
Unlimited w/ auto
3.73 axle gear ratio + stick/auto
4.10 axle gear ratio + stick/auto
And for comparison, try out a 2 door as well. They'll be a lot tighter on people space and cargo but they still have seating for 4 (or 5). Why I suggest this is that they're smaller which means even more manouverable and they're lighter so they'll have better get up and go.
Also, I'm still sticking to my claim that a Rubicon (while cool) is a lot of overkill for your part of the country. Even if you get into offroading it's overkill for the trails you have.
Nick M3
11-12-2008, 11:46 PM
Why replace the ZHP? It's not worth that much now. Keep it and get your sports car.
lupinsea
11-13-2008, 12:01 AM
It's FC's plan so I don't want to put words in his mouth but to me a ZHP and a sports car are too close in driving experience to one another. Far enough apart to know they're different, sure. But if I'd have three cars around the house (with two basically being the ones I drive) then I'd want them to offer very different driving experiences.
Going from a sports car to a sport sedan is one thing. . .
Going from a low the ground sports car to an up in the air truck-like Jeep is something completely different. :D
Besides there's a lot of crap I'll toss in the Jeep for hauling that I wouldn't want to go anywhere near my ZHP.
3LOU5
11-13-2008, 12:43 AM
.... But if I'd have three cars around the house (with two basically being the ones I drive) then I'd want them to offer very different driving experiences.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I think that's why I like driving my 1/2-ton. Its loose and vague steering, coupled with its sloppy handling makes it a challenge to drive. And after driving this and immediately hopping onto my sedan, I feel like it's anything other than the lowliest of the 3-series.
lupinsea
11-13-2008, 02:07 AM
I remember my Dad's 1976 F-250 4x4. It was old, it rode like it had no suspension, and didn't smooth out until you had about 2 tons in the bed. Sloppy vague steering, crappy milage. But damn if there wasn't something about that truck. The rumbling V8, the way it sat high up in the air (seat at rib-cage height), the massiveness of it, or the way you'd just cruise around town bouncing on the worn bench seat behind that black steel dashboard with one arm perched on the rolled down windowsill on a hot summer evening.
No where near what you get from a BMW, Merc, or P-car but it was still a hoot to drive in it's own way.
He hung on to that truck for 30 years, racked up over 300,000 miles on it (probably closer to 400k), and it eventually outlived him. But just barely. Sad to see it go but it was time.
But they are fun too, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I've been thinking about this particular 4-runner. Don't ask why, something is wrong with me.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=254548098
Manual transmission even! Though I'll be honest, it seems kind of odd to have a manual in a road-going SUV. It's not going to be an enjoyable rowing experience at all. It's going to be very u-haul like.
I will drive the jeep extensively. a 2-door is out. I need to be able to take the kid(s) in a pinch and really if there's a 4-door, why bother with a 2-door.
lup's point is exactly what I am thinking. The V70R is no BMW, but I've come to terms with living with it for ~2 years (~'10 - '12) as the primary daily driver until it gets replaced. It's a slushy and it's heavy and not well sorted, but it has good brakes and punching the gas can still give you a smile. Most of the time I have the kid or even the dog in it so it's not as if I can take turns so aggressively that any major dynamic defficiencies are apparent. The V70R is after all a very sporty wagon and handles better than most vehicles out there - I just happen to compare it to the ZHP (which franlky isn't fair). And when the R gets replaced, I'll make sure to get a fun MT wagon.
Right now, I spend most of my time in a car makign short trips with my family/dog. The Jeep is a much more fun year-round car in that regard. The weekend sports car will allow me to run an errand or drive for fun with no restrictions and have a different experience. And if the jeep doesn't work out, then I'll get some used SUV like a 4Runner, Land Cruiser, etc.
As for the ZHP, as you guys are well aware, I like that car and have had a hard time letting go of it. In another year it will "only" be worth in the mid-teens but that still goes a long way towards the jeep and there is nothing the 330i does that the V70R can't do (practically speaking). It's time to move on. I don't have a teenager that can use the car soon either.
Note to FC: I'd still suggest you test drive the Jeep extensively first. They're definitely something different that lack a lot of refinement (but they're fun this way in my mind). Also, with the different transmission and axle gear ratio options test drive a bunch. My recomendation:
Unlimited w/ stick
Unlimited w/ auto
3.73 axle gear ratio + stick/auto
4.10 axle gear ratio + stick/auto
And for comparison, try out a 2 door as well. They'll be a lot tighter on people space and cargo but they still have seating for 4 (or 5). Why I suggest this is that they're smaller which means even more manouverable and they're lighter so they'll have better get up and go.
Also, I'm still sticking to my claim that a Rubicon (while cool) is a lot of overkill for your part of the country. Even if you get into offroading it's overkill for the trails you have.
I still hate the fact that the X's are usually poorly optioned and the Sahara colors suck. However, a Jeep Green Sahara may be ok. I could always replace the wheel fenders with black ones since I hate the body colored theme of the sahara. Reading a bit, I saw that people tend to recommend the 4.10 axle, but starting in '08 you can only get them on the rubicon. Apparently '07s got the 4.10 with the tow pckg and if you got a slushy on the 4-door. No more after '08. Anyhow, I'll be a bit more open minded on the model trims and I certainly can be patient.
clyde
11-13-2008, 09:55 AM
I didn't see the "buy John's Boxster" option. :? Oversight? :dunno:
:eeps:
I would buy John's Boxster. Except it has to be a 3rd car. And right now, I don't have the money for a 3rd car. I could, for the right opportunity, replace the 330i with the jeep (or other SUV) soon, since than can seat 4. But unless John can hold on to the Boxster until next Fall at the earliest, buying his car is not an option. Like I said a while back, the timing sucks.
wdc330i
11-13-2008, 11:03 AM
Maybe John wants to swap his Boxster for a ZHP (or a low-miles 330i SP?:)) Upgrade the Altima!
Why replace the ZHP? It's not worth that much now. Keep it and get your sports car.
Logic will not be tolerated here! :mad2:
Logic will not be tolerated here! :mad2:
:lol:
My guess is that this is driven by the new car itch. Since I seem to keep cars for about 2 years or so, I can certainly understand the concept. But the truth is you probably shouldn't make any changes at all from a financial/rationality perspective.
John V
11-13-2008, 01:08 PM
Maybe John wants to swap his Boxster for a ZHP (or a low-miles 330i SP?:)) Upgrade the Altima!
Maybe you should sell your E46 (shouldn't be hard, it looks mint) and buy my Boxster. :) Interesting discussion that my SO and I had in the Boxster (she was driving) on the way to the gym the last nice day we had here (about a week ago).
Me: "I'm going to miss this car."
Her: "Me too - I really love this car."
Huh. Really? I guess neither of us realized how much she liked it until recently. The limitation has always been that her primary car had to have four doors because of her line of work, so she rarely drove it anywhere. Now that she may be transitioning into a different role, perhaps it makes sense to keep it. It's worth far more to us than we can get in a depressed winter market for sure.
For all my bitching about it, her Jetta 1.8T has been a workhorse for us. It's got 140,000 miles on it and, electrical issues aside, it keeps chugging along, 30-34MPG all day long. When she decides she wants a new car, I'll start using the Jetta and the Altima will... get passed along to someone else who needs a reliable workhorse? I really don't think it will ever stop running, it will just continue to get uglier and uglier. :lol: But damnit, it always starts, it gets great mileage, it has tons of room for tires, tools, etc and I don't care if anyone dings it.
Bottom line, I like the E46 3-series but neither her nor I have any passion for it. If she went hunting for a new car to drive daily I imagine she'd head straight to the nearest MINI dealer.
My guess is that this is driven by the new car itch. Since I seem to keep cars for about 2 years or so, I can certainly understand the concept. But the truth is you probably shouldn't make any changes at all from a financial/rationality perspective.
:+1
I've said so many times before. To make any changes would be a luxury, and as such, it has to wait until the time is right. Currently, the time is not right.
wdc330i
11-13-2008, 02:07 PM
Maybe you should sell your E46 (shouldn't be hard, it looks mint) and buy my Boxster. :) Interesting discussion that my SO and I had in the Boxster (she was driving) on the way to the gym the last nice day we had here (about a week ago).
Me: "I'm going to miss this car."
Her: "Me too - I really love this car."
Huh. Really? I guess neither of us realized how much she liked it until recently. The limitation has always been that her primary car had to have four doors because of her line of work, so she rarely drove it anywhere. Now that she may be transitioning into a different role, perhaps it makes sense to keep it. It's worth far more to us than we can get in a depressed winter market for sure.
For all my bitching about it, her Jetta 1.8T has been a workhorse for us. It's got 140,000 miles on it and, electrical issues aside, it keeps chugging along, 30-34MPG all day long. When she decides she wants a new car, I'll start using the Jetta and the Altima will... get passed along to someone else who needs a reliable workhorse? I really don't think it will ever stop running, it will just continue to get uglier and uglier. :lol: But damnit, it always starts, it gets great mileage, it has tons of room for tires, tools, etc and I don't care if anyone dings it.
Bottom line, I like the E46 3-series but neither her nor I have any passion for it. If she went hunting for a new car to drive daily I imagine she'd head straight to the nearest MINI dealer.
You guys should sell the Altima and Jetta and keep the Boxster. Rent a ZipCar if you ever need a beater.
John V
11-13-2008, 02:11 PM
The Altima's value is roughly equivalent to the amount of fuel in the tank added to the contents of the trunk. Right now, it has four new tires in the trunk and a quarter tank of gas so I figure it's worth about $300. Makes no sense to get rid of it.
A Jetta with 140,000 miles is worth maybe $6k, realistically, in this market. I need a beater almost every day of the year. Renting isn't even close to practical.
clyde
11-13-2008, 02:30 PM
The Altima's value is roughly equivalent to the amount of fuel in the tank added to the contents of the trunk. Right now, it has four new tires in the trunk and a quarter tank of gas so I figure it's worth about $300. Makes no sense to get rid of it.
A Jetta with 140,000 miles is worth maybe $6k, realistically, in this market. I need a beater almost every day of the year. Renting isn't even close to practical.
Keeping the Altima and selling the Jetta makes sense. OTOH, if you listed the Altima at $678 or so, I might know a buyer. :eeps:
John, jump on that! It's over 100% profit over your perceived value!
John V
11-13-2008, 02:55 PM
Except both vehicles are worth more to us than they are to anybody else. Until that changes, they will stay in the family.
If my car were worth less that 6-8K or so, I'd keep it as an nth car. Maybe even at less than $10K. At mid to upper teens, no way. I'll take the $$$.
lupinsea
11-13-2008, 06:31 PM
I still hate the fact that the X's are usually poorly optioned and the Sahara colors suck. However, a Jeep Green Sahara may be ok. I could always replace the wheel fenders with black ones since I hate the body colored theme of the sahara. Reading a bit, I saw that people tend to recommend the 4.10 axle, but starting in '08 you can only get them on the rubicon. Apparently '07s got the 4.10 with the tow pckg and if you got a slushy on the 4-door. No more after '08. Anyhow, I'll be a bit more open minded on the model trims and I certainly can be patient.
Well, the whole point of the X is that it's the base model. So it'll be really stripped out in terms of options. You're still left with a pretty darn capable Jeep with a roof and doors that come off . . . the important bits. :)
Didn't know the 4.10's are now only available on the Rubicons. Interesting. I thought some were offered on other lines. Still, there's always re-gearing but that's about $1k-1200 for both axles (parts and labor) and if you're not tossing on large tires there's no point to that. The lower gearing gives you more grunt at the expense of higher RPMS. If you're running larger tires this helps because the engine isn't working as hard so it helps minimize impacts to MPG.
When the time comes make a list of stuff you "Need To Have" and stuff you just want to have. I'd recommend finding a used one that matches your lists as well as possible. But keep in mind there is a TON of aftermarket support for these vehicle. So if you don't find the exact Jeep and Jeep Options you want in your price range you can remedy that on your own. Most changes are pretty easy to make and most are reasonably economical.
There's also a lot of stuff guys remove and sell as used spare parts as they upgrade and modify their Jeeps. If you want the black fenders, for instance, I can almost guarantee you can find a set used that someone took off his Jeep because he's modifying it heavily or putting on aftermarket body armor or something.
In fact, just saw a set on e-bay for $10 for a set of 4 flares w/ two inner fender liners. There are probably other stuff on the forsale section on the different Jeep boards.
Thanks for the info. I don't so much care for the serious off road stuff. But dual tops, power group and tow pkg are a must for me. That's about. These are rarely spec'd on the X and while some could be added later, they are a lot cheaper when they come with the car. Again, the higher end models also tend to come with the tougher bits as well.
Well, over the holidays I did some thinking and my wife checked out a JK unltd in the showroom. Now I'm almost sure I'll be getting some kind of Wrangler 4-door.
We ruled out the Tacoma idea (don't feel like typing that much). The other options were a very old 4Runner, a new 4Runner, a used JGC or the Wrangler. Given my cargo requirements, I wanted the ability to have long things stick out of the back. The 4Runners with their power way-back window and the wrangler meet this but the JGC doesn't. Also, JGC reliability issues among other things made me rule it out. I read some review of the 4Runners and the previous gen seems smallish in rear leg room and cargo area for its size and apparently drives like crap. A co-worker of mine has a '99 so it will be easy to verify this, but for now I am tentatively scratching it off the list. Plus, it would be very old - wife no likey.
The newer 4Runner seems to be an improvement but to my amazement, it only holds 75 cf with the seats down vs. 85 for the JK. FYI, the V70R also holds about 85. Anyhow, that, plus a still robust resale value make it not as attractive as I thought it would be. Still, it was certainly in the running.
In the end, it comes down to this: If I truly want a cheap utility vehicle, I'll probably get the oldest, cheapest 4Runner that runs well enough. If I'm willing to spend newer 4Runner money (low to mid teens), I rather get a used JK (upper teens). I think the jeep would be more of an experience than a 4Runner. It's still just practical. It may not ride as well, but it's surprisingly close. And it's a car that I find incredibly cool and with lots of character. Sure it has quirks, but if for a few extra grand I can turn a clumsy SUV into some sort of a cool toy, I think I do it. My wife seems willing to go along with it.
The larger plan is that including the sale of the 330i, I get ~50K to spend as I wish on the SUV and sportscar. If I keep the SUV to under 20K (easily done), I should still be able to shoehorn a 987 car (be it boxster or cayman) with a 3.4L engine by spring of '10 at the latest.
I kind of have a crush for the new DI P-cars with LSD's, so part of me wants to buy something cheaper like JV's car and hold on to it long enough that an '09+ P-car gets cheaper (say, under 40K). It also lets me try out the roadster thing.
-------------------
JK talk - IOW, this is for lup.
I've looked into it, and there are a few things I want in the JK. First, I'm only considering yellow or jeep green (yellow N/A on sahara's). The biggy is finding one with the 4.10 gears. It seems to improve acceleration. Perhaps that is why the rubicon I drove didn't seem THAT gutless. Trouble is, after '07, only rubicons get it. So if I stick to '07's, I still need to ask around and see what kind of gears that non-rubicon has (a PITA).
I do want the rear diff to lock or at least be an LSD. I also definitely need the pwr group and at least the hard top but preferably both tops. The tow group would also be nice. Slushy is a given. That's about it. Saharas come std with pwr group and dual tops, which is nice. The toughest thing will be to find one with at least a rear LSD.
A yellow X with the stuff I want would be great, but being the cheaper model, they rarely get spec'd that way. Especially when I'm limited only to '07's.
The easiest choice (but priciest) is just to find a yellow rubicon. They tend to be loaded up. But I'll be lucky to find one for near 20K even 8-10 months from now. I don't need the knobby tires or locking front diff, but it's nice to have heavy duty stuff, like underbody armor, a beefier front axle, etc. Perhaps the biggest benefit to the Rubicon is that if I do sell it, they hold their value much better, and they sell much quicker. We'll see what's out there in a few months, but the likely scenario will be that I get an '07 green sahara with an LSD (and the 4.10 gears). They are already going for ~$20K.
I can go test drive it for ya' :D
http://www.carmax.com/enUS/view-car/default.html?AVi=3&id=5550084&N=4294967054+4294967053&D=60&zip=33547&No=0&Ep=Homepage%20Make&Rp=R&PP=20&sV=List&CD=203+10+14+240+190+8+9&Q=21c697fd-d6ac-4953-aca2-61ee5afd0e3c
http://img-84.carmax.com/Images/0/84/5550084-4-3-2d4f529b.jpg
That's Rescue Green.:ack:
I (and the wife) want Jeep Green.
But feel free to drive it and tell me what you think. ;) After all, you did (do?) have a 4Runner.
lupinsea
01-06-2009, 03:54 PM
Very cool, FC!
The rig ff found looks pretty good. . . .
There are a few options/things to consider:
You can search and search to find THE perfect Wrangler . . . or you can build it yourself.
Hear me out.
It "may" be cost effective to get a lower model Wrangler and add a few extra things (or have a shop do it) than to wait and wait and try and find "the" pefect one and possibly pay a premium for it. (Then again, you might find the perfect one out there at the right price)
Gears are a good example.
It costs about $1000-1200 to have a shop re-gear both axles (I think that's parts and labor, ~$600/axle). So, if you find a non-rubicon model that's $2k cheaper you come out ahead by having a shop do the gear install. Plus, you have a much greater availablility of gear ratios to choose from (4.56, 4.88, 5.13, etc.). If you can find 4.10 gears or a Rubi in your price range, great. But stick this nugget of info in the back of your mind: the wrong gears may not be the end of the world.
Rear Locker (Gears pt 2)
Jeep sells rear Rubicon axles (complete with locker, 4.10 gears, disc brakes, etc.) ready to install for $1500. This is an insane scream'n deal on a D44 rear axle. And it'll bolt right in. You can probably do the install in your garage with a socket wrench set and about 2 hrs or less of your time.
Rear LSD
Not too shabby, and it'll help. But given what you'll be using the Wrangler for I'm thinking that either a locker or LSD isn't critical. The stock 4WD systems on the Wranglers will take you amazing places. Plus the JKs have all that fancy electronic traction control stuff with brake modulation, yadda yadda yadda. So, if you can find a Wrangler with an LSD or rear locker, cool. But if I were in your shoes I wouldn't worry about it.
Also, *IF* you do re-gear a non-4.10 geared JK you can have them stuff in an aftermarket LSD that would be better than the factory unit. There'd be no extra labor cost as it's the same procedure for installing a new diff as it is for changing gears.
Gears (pt 3)
If buying used you might want to verify what gear ratio the JK has. On TJs they used to have a metal tag sandwiched under one of the diff cover bolts that had the gear radio stamped on there. Not sure abut the JKs but I'd bet it's similar. Alternatively, jack up one tire on the rear end and rotate the tire one full revolution. Count how many times the driveshaft rotates to calculate the ratio. If it spins a hair more than 4 times then you have the 4.10 gears. If it's close to 3 1/2 times then you'll have the 3.73's. . . 3 times, then the 3.07s.
Front Axle
I wouldn't worry about getting beefier front axle as they don't see the same stress as a rear axle. If you're climbing the side of a mountain all the weight shifts to the rear axle which sees most of strain. If you're going down the mountain weight shifts to the front but you have gravity helping you. If you're towing, you'll be doing so in 2WD and the rear axle gets the stress again (unless you're on a boat ramp, see going up mountain example). And again, for your applications I doubt you'd need it (unless you throw on a 4" lift, 35" tires, install a front locker, and go rock crawling).
Extra Skid Plates
If you're not doing any substangle offroading where you're litteratlly dragging the belly of your Jeep over rocks and logs I wouldn't worry about extra skids. If they come with the Jeep you're looking at, cool, but I wouldn't go out of your way to put them on your "must have" list.
Tops
If it were me I'd get a soft top and forget the hard top. "I" don't have a need/desire for a hard top as the soft tops are pretty durable and reasonably quiet and the Jeep heaters work great. However, hard tops are more expensive but that isn't usually reflected in used Jeep prices much. If you can get a dual top, awesome.
Tow Package
Cool if you can find it, but also, something that can be added later. See what's included in it. It "may" be worth holding out for if you plan to do a lot of towing.
Colors
Yellow is just plain cool. :cool::D
You know, you could get a Yellow Jeep and a Yellow P-car. Start building your fleet of yellow machines (repaint the V70R!)
Bottom Line
Get the Jeep as close to ideally setup as you want but realize that you can add things later. The power group might be something that's harder to retrofit so I'd probably key into that. The gears are expensive (~$1200) but relatively easy in that you drop off the Jeep at a shop, then come back and pick it up a day later and they're installed (ditto on an aftermarket LSD).
FWIW, I saw a jacked-up 4-door Wrangler yesterday (~6 inch lift with big tires), with all sorts of gear attached to the spare tire (fire extinguisher, jerry cans, etc)... License plate was "MRS 007"...
lupinsea
01-06-2009, 04:30 PM
Oh, and watch out for the 2WD Unlimiteds. For some reason Jeep decided that some base-model Unlimited would be sold as 2WD. It's easy to check though. Look for the 4WD shift lever in the cab next to the transmission shifter. Or look at the front axle. . . if it's a straight tube it's 2WD, if it has a big round differential its the real deal.
Very cool, FC!
The rig ff found looks pretty good. . . .
There are a few options/things to consider:
You can search and search to find THE perfect Wrangler . . . or you can build it yourself.
Hear me out.
It "may" be cost effective to get a lower model Wrangler and add a few extra things (or have a shop do it) than to wait and wait and try and find "the" pefect one and possibly pay a premium for it. (Then again, you might find the perfect one out there at the right price)
Gears are a good example.
It costs about $1000-1200 to have a shop re-gear both axles (I think that's parts and labor, ~$600/axle). So, if you find a non-rubicon model that's $2k cheaper you come out ahead by having a shop do the gear install. Plus, you have a much greater availablility of gear ratios to choose from (4.56, 4.88, 5.13, etc.). If you can find 4.10 gears or a Rubi in your price range, great. But stick this nugget of info in the back of your mind: the wrong gears may not be the end of the world.
Rear Locker (Gears pt 2)
Jeep sells rear Rubicon axles (complete with locker, 4.10 gears, disc brakes, etc.) ready to install for $1500. This is an insane scream'n deal on a D44 rear axle. And it'll bolt right in. You can probably do the install in your garage with a socket wrench set and about 2 hrs or less of your time.
Rear LSD
Not too shabby, and it'll help. But given what you'll be using the Wrangler for I'm thinking that either a locker or LSD isn't critical. The stock 4WD systems on the Wranglers will take you amazing places. Plus the JKs have all that fancy electronic traction control stuff with brake modulation, yadda yadda yadda. So, if you can find a Wrangler with an LSD or rear locker, cool. But if I were in your shoes I wouldn't worry about it.
Also, *IF* you do re-gear a non-4.10 geared JK you can have them stuff in an aftermarket LSD that would be better than the factory unit. There'd be no extra labor cost as it's the same procedure for installing a new diff as it is for changing gears.
Gears (pt 3)
If buying used you might want to verify what gear ratio the JK has. On TJs they used to have a metal tag sandwiched under one of the diff cover bolts that had the gear radio stamped on there. Not sure abut the JKs but I'd bet it's similar. Alternatively, jack up one tire on the rear end and rotate the tire one full revolution. Count how many times the driveshaft rotates to calculate the ratio. If it spins a hair more than 4 times then you have the 4.10 gears. If it's close to 3 1/2 times then you'll have the 3.73's. . . 3 times, then the 3.07s.
Front Axle
I wouldn't worry about getting beefier front axle as they don't see the same stress as a rear axle. If you're climbing the side of a mountain all the weight shifts to the rear axle which sees most of strain. If you're going down the mountain weight shifts to the front but you have gravity helping you. If you're towing, you'll be doing so in 2WD and the rear axle gets the stress again (unless you're on a boat ramp, see going up mountain example). And again, for your applications I doubt you'd need it (unless you throw on a 4" lift, 35" tires, install a front locker, and go rock crawling).
Extra Skid Plates
If you're not doing any substangle offroading where you're litteratlly dragging the belly of your Jeep over rocks and logs I wouldn't worry about extra skids. If they come with the Jeep you're looking at, cool, but I wouldn't go out of your way to put them on your "must have" list.
Tops
If it were me I'd get a soft top and forget the hard top. "I" don't have a need/desire for a hard top as the soft tops are pretty durable and reasonably quiet and the Jeep heaters work great. However, hard tops are more expensive but that isn't usually reflected in used Jeep prices much. If you can get a dual top, awesome.
Tow Package
Cool if you can find it, but also, something that can be added later. See what's included in it. It "may" be worth holding out for if you plan to do a lot of towing.
Colors
Yellow is just plain cool. :cool::D
You know, you could get a Yellow Jeep and a Yellow P-car. Start building your fleet of yellow machines (repaint the V70R!)
Bottom Line
Get the Jeep as close to ideally setup as you want but realize that you can add things later. The power group might be something that's harder to retrofit so I'd probably key into that. The gears are expensive (~$1200) but relatively easy in that you drop off the Jeep at a shop, then come back and pick it up a day later and they're installed (ditto on an aftermarket LSD).
Thanks lup!
The body armor and front axle I don't have any use for. Ditto the crazy rock-crawling transfer case in the rubi. But if they come with the car, so be it. I rather look for an '07 JK that has the 4.10 gears (apparently if the car has the tow pkg - which I want anyway, it has 4.10 gears) than to go aftermarket.
I know an LSD or locker are overkill (nevermind a front locker/beefy axle/sway bar disconnect/etc as in the rubi), but if I went as far as getting a JK, I will be pissed to no end if I ever get stuck on anything at all. Yeah, maybe it's bragging rights, but if they are available for cheap bundled into a used car, I'll take it.
I do want the hard top. This is a car my wife could drive, and if it is really bad out there, I know she'd rather have a hard top. Like you said, on used cars, they sort of come free if dual tops were ordered. But I do want the soft top too.
On colors, my wife wants green. I have convinced her that on a cool car like that yellow works. She seems ok with that at the moment.
As I was re-reading reviews, I came accross a counterpoint by Csaba Csere that really made sense in a totally illogical way. He mentioned the JK (especifically the rubicon) reminded him of a neighbor who asked, when he was testing a Lamborghini, who the hell needs a car that can do 190mph? Likewise he says, who the hell needs a car that can traverse the rubicon trail unscathed? If you have to ask...
It's funny, and stupid, but it made sense to me. It's an emotional thing. A toy - sort of. There seem to be two distinct camps. The people who constantly try to compare it to mainstream SUV's - who invariable find it completely stupid, and those who just "get" the vehicle.
I happen to be in a position that will allow me to enjoy the car and most of its positives while keeping its negatives to a minimum thanks to other vehicles.
lupinsea
01-06-2009, 05:59 PM
Thanks lup!
The body armor and front axle I don't have any use for. Ditto the crazy rock-crawling transfer case in the rubi. But if they come with the car, so be it. I rather look for an '07 JK that has the 4.10 gears (apparently if the car has the tow pkg - which I want anyway, it has 4.10 gears) than to go aftermarket.
I completely understand not wanting to go aftermarket. There is a certain hassel factor involved. Not to mention the question "is aftermarket really as good as factory?" In terms of setting up gears. . . yes. Guy in my club set up the gears in my Jeep as a side job in his driveway. It takes skills and know how but once you "know how" and have the tools the gears should last a lifetime. Or, until you want to swap out to larger tires and re-gear yet again (:yaya: :rolleyes: :banghead:).
I know an LSD or locker are overkill (nevermind a front locker/beefy axle/sway bar disconnect/etc as in the rubi), but if I went as far as getting a JK, I will be pissed to no end if I ever get stuck on anything at all. Yeah, maybe it's bragging rights, but if they are available for cheap bundled into a used car, I'll take it.
Again, makes complete sense. My only thought was that if you find a JK that in all other respects meets your list of "must haves" but is difficient in one area then don't sweat it. Even the base 4x4 system is very capable for what you'll be facing.
I do want the hard top. This is a car my wife could drive, and if it is really bad out there, I know she'd rather have a hard top. Like you said, on used cars, they sort of come free if dual tops were ordered. But I do want the soft top too.
Cool. But the soft tops have improved a decent amount and the Jeep hard tops aren't isnsulated or carpet lined or anything. Makes it a bit of a wash. HOWEVER, the big difference is security.
With a soft top, someone can break into the Jeep by simply unzipping a window. That is, if they're too lazy to slice through the fabric/vinyl windows with a knife. The hardtops have glass side windows, fiberglass shells, and a locking rear glass lift window.
Anyways, I've never bothered to lock my Jeep and get a bit peeved when passengers lock the passenger door. I've just learned not to leave things in my Jeep that I don't want stolen.
On colors, my wife wants green. I have convinced her that on a cool car like that yellow works. She seems ok with that at the moment.
Keep in mind that the yellow will be very bright. Very OUT THERE! And on something the size of a JK . . . there will be a lot of yellow. I love it. . . reminds me of all the DeWalt power tools or yellow construction vehicles or utility trucks. Shows up good in photos when the Jeep is in dimly light forests.
It's funny, and stupid, but it made sense to me. It's an emotional thing. A toy - sort of. There seem to be two distinct camps. The people who constantly try to compare it to mainstream SUV's - who invariable find it completely stupid, and those who just "get" the vehicle.
"It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand" is a phrase that has been put on stickers, t-shirts, and plastered on windshields and bumpers. And it's true.
The Jeep offers a degree of utility. But so do many other SUVs and objectively speaking they are lightyears more refined and advanced with better handling more powerful engines, better fuel economy, greater towing, more seating, etc. the list goes on.
But there's something about a Jeep that is very illogical and defies objectivity.
It's sort of like people looking at a 2-seat drop-top roadster and complaining that it's impractical because it doesn't have 4 doors and seat 5 people, and it has a noisy roof. Oh, and it's windy with the top down.
Duh. But roadster nuts get it.
I happen to be in a position that will allow me to enjoy the car and most of its positives while keeping its negatives to a minimum thanks to other vehicles.
Not a bad way to go. If I could only have ONE vehicle it'd be a Jeep (it offers too much fun, practicality, and freedom for me). But I'm VERY glad I can afford to have the BMW or Volvo or something that I can drive everyday for sporty road duties.
lupinsea
01-06-2009, 08:03 PM
See. . .
Unlimited X - The base model.* :D
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll157/cmy07jeep/snow%20run%2001-03-09/100_1916.jpg
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll157/cmy07jeep/snow%20run%2001-03-09/100_1913.jpg
'Bah, what am I calking about, nothing the V70R couldn't handle, right? ;)
* With 35" tires and a 3" lift. No lockers, though.
.
Lup', I'm gonna come out and visit some day, and go riding with you guys. :D I still think that looks like as much fun as driving some back road in a sporty car. Maybe even moreso.
SARAFIL
01-06-2009, 08:37 PM
FC, we get new bodystyle Jeeps in trade all the time. I just sold two of them this past month, both '08 Sahara Unltd's. Let me know when you are ready to do something, and I'll probably have one that I can give you a good deal on.
lemming
01-06-2009, 10:06 PM
FC, we get new bodystyle Jeeps in trade all the time. I just sold two of them this past month, both '08 Sahara Unltd's. Let me know when you are ready to do something, and I'll probably have one that I can give you a good deal on.
:feeder of bad habits:
oh, hi, 'Fil.
FC, we get new bodystyle Jeeps in trade all the time. I just sold two of them this past month, both '08 Sahara Unltd's. Let me know when you are ready to do something, and I'll probably have one that I can give you a good deal on.
Will do. I did see you guys had a nice one a couple of weeks ago.
I can tell you that one time, we forgot our BT headset for the phone, and needed to make a call from the GT2, and that we had to drive 60mph to be able to use the speaker phone feature (to comply with the cellphone law). Anything faster than that and you can't hear shit.
All flavors of modern non GT porsches I have driven are pretty quiet, yes, even the Turbo's. So you should be fine there.
Sure, you can be on the phone etc... But in the end, the level of practicality in even a modern porsche doesn't match that of a 3er. But then again, the cayman is one of the loudest cars stock so perhaps I have a different view of things. 997's are much quieter inside.
The short of it is that the Northeast is not particularly porsche-friendly. Between the bad roads, the bad weather, the bad drivers, the sub-optimal night driving (I really miss not having the dimming mirror option in mine, though you are still blinded from the front due to the low seating position), it does not make a great only car for most people. Sometimes you just need to be cocooned in an s4 or a bmw, if you catch my drift.
lupinsea
01-07-2009, 12:33 AM
Lup', I'm gonna come out and visit some day, and go riding with you guys. :D I still think that looks like as much fun as driving some back road in a sporty car. Maybe even moreso.
It's different.
We don't go fast at all inspite of popular imaginings of off-roaders blasting around a full throttle. Most of the time we're 3-4 mph or slower (I think once we averaged less than 1mph for an 8 hr day of wheel'n).
But it's great feel'n the way the Jeep moves over such uneven terrain, or the grip and traction it does have in some surprising situations. Or the stability in off-camber (really off-camber) sections of trail. Then there's the outdoors that you're in. . . and the top down with the wind blowing through a Jeep without any doors. . . .
Definitely.
Come on out some time. Give me a heads up and I'd suggest mid-to-late summer. If we plan it right we could make a multi-day expedition of it crossing the Cascade mountains and rolling around in eastern Washington and just setting up camp wherever we end up that day.
Same goes to FC or anyone else.
Just give me some time to round up a couple other jeepers (since offroading as the sole rig is dumb and dangerous).
Sharp11
01-07-2009, 12:51 AM
though you are still blinded from the front due to the low seating position), it does not make a great only car for most people.
The Z4 was very, very bad in this respect - the low seating position and long hood made driving over sharp crests (of which we have many) a heart-pounding game of chicken - it was like cresting a wave in a boat with a long bow.
That, looking up the ass of SUV's and hearing truck motors inches over your shoulder made driving a sports car a bit of a challenge.
Still, I miss the configuration of a two-seater.
Ed
...it does not make a great only car for most people. Sometimes you just need to be cocooned in an s4 or a bmw, if you catch my drift.
I agree. When I think of the relatively little use a sportscar would get, I always try to think of what sportscar I could use everyday. That leads me to a 911. Then I think about how it would still be too small. Then I think about just getting an E90 M3. But why bother with that if I plan on getting a 535 MT wagon and to have that and an M3 is a royal waste of money for a somewhat similar experience (nevermind the M3 is expensive and I wouldn't want to own it long term). If I truly use the M3 everyday with two kids, it will get beat up quickly. So I go back to the idea of just driving the wagon as a commuter and keeping a fun car for the weekend.
John V
01-07-2009, 08:21 AM
. . .it does not make a great only car for most people. Sometimes you just need to be cocooned in an s4 or a bmw, if you catch my drift.
Which is why you get something cheap like an older S2000 or Boxster. Something that has hit the bottom of its depreciation curve and won't be a huge debit if you decide after 6mo or a year that it just isn't for you.
:dunno:
It's different.
We don't go fast at all inspite of popular imaginings of off-roaders blasting around a full throttle. Most of the time we're 3-4 mph or slower (I think once we averaged less than 1mph for an 8 hr day of wheel'n).
But it's great feel'n the way the Jeep moves over such uneven terrain, or the grip and traction it does have in some surprising situations. Or the stability in off-camber (really off-camber) sections of trail. Then there's the outdoors that you're in. . . and the top down with the wind blowing through a Jeep without any doors. . . .
Definitely.
Come on out some time. Give me a heads up and I'd suggest mid-to-late summer. If we plan it right we could make a multi-day expedition of it crossing the Cascade mountains and rolling around in eastern Washington and just setting up camp wherever we end up that day.
Same goes to FC or anyone else.
Just give me some time to round up a couple other jeepers (since offroading as the sole rig is dumb and dangerous).
I've been wanting to visit the pacific north-west for a long time. When we do (the Mrs. wants to visit Vancouver as well), I'd definitely want to meet up and go wheelin'.
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