View Full Version : Good/Bad (repair saga)
The GOOD! - SES light is indeed the cam sensor, covered under the CPO warrant for $50 deductible.
The VERY GOOD! - Shifter resting under fifth gear is indead a known defect and the transmission replacement is covered under the CPO warranty for $50 deductible. (I argued with the service writer about this - when he called to tell me the "good news" and apologize for the argument, he claimed he asked all around the shop and nobody there had heard of it before. Whatever.)
The bad - I had them check the clutch - about 15% life left and almost down to the rivets. I don't know if I don't get along with this clutch (doubtful), the original owner was bad with a clutch (who knows) or the test drives put on the car before it was sold destroyed it (likely). The car had something like 600 miles on it before it was sold. I bought it at 34k. I have NEVER had to replace a clutch at 50k miles before. It bugs me. :(
The GOOD! - SES light is indeed the cam sensor, covered under the CPO warrant for $50 deductible.
The VERY GOOD! - Shifter resting under fifth gear is indead a known defect and the transmission replacement is covered under the CPO warranty for $50 deductible. (I argued with the service writer about this - when he called to tell me the "good news" and apologize for the argument, he claimed he asked all around the shop and nobody there had heard of it before. Whatever.)
The bad - I had them check the clutch - about 15% life left and almost down to the rivets. I don't know if I don't get along with this clutch (doubtful), the original owner was bad with a clutch (who knows) or the test drives put on the car before it was sold destroyed it (likely). The car had something like 600 miles on it before it was sold. I bought it at 34k. I have NEVER had to replace a clutch at 50k miles before. It bugs me. :(
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to replace a clutch? I mean, I know it is not a piece of cake, but just how bad is it to DIY?
zcasavant
04-21-2004, 02:32 PM
The GOOD! - SES light is indeed the cam sensor, covered under the CPO warrant for $50 deductible.
The VERY GOOD! - Shifter resting under fifth gear is indead a known defect and the transmission replacement is covered under the CPO warranty for $50 deductible. (I argued with the service writer about this - when he called to tell me the "good news" and apologize for the argument, he claimed he asked all around the shop and nobody there had heard of it before. Whatever.)
The bad - I had them check the clutch - about 15% life left and almost down to the rivets. I don't know if I don't get along with this clutch (doubtful), the original owner was bad with a clutch (who knows) or the test drives put on the car before it was sold destroyed it (likely). The car had something like 600 miles on it before it was sold. I bought it at 34k. I have NEVER had to replace a clutch at 50k miles before. It bugs me. :(
My clutch is going too (at 80k miles). I had my tranny replaced when i first got the car and should have had the clutch replaced then (since they had the tranny out, replacing the clutch would have been much less labor cost for me).
I think my girlfriend rides the clutch too much. Oh well.
The GOOD! - SES light is indeed the cam sensor, covered under the CPO warrant for $50 deductible.
The VERY GOOD! - Shifter resting under fifth gear is indead a known defect and the transmission replacement is covered under the CPO warranty for $50 deductible. (I argued with the service writer about this - when he called to tell me the "good news" and apologize for the argument, he claimed he asked all around the shop and nobody there had heard of it before. Whatever.)
The bad - I had them check the clutch - about 15% life left and almost down to the rivets. I don't know if I don't get along with this clutch (doubtful), the original owner was bad with a clutch (who knows) or the test drives put on the car before it was sold destroyed it (likely). The car had something like 600 miles on it before it was sold. I bought it at 34k. I have NEVER had to replace a clutch at 50k miles before. It bugs me. :(
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to replace a clutch? I mean, I know it is not a piece of cake, but just how bad is it to DIY?Clutch? Not too bad.
I mean, relative to some other stuff I've done, it was a piece of cake. ;)
Seriously though, in most cars the transmission has to be removed first. This is not so bad in theory, but it can be a bear in practice unless/until you pick up a few special tools (crows-foot wrench, or other type things) to get access to some of the bolts with the car on jackstands. The tools aren't expensive. When the tranny is free of the car, you will want a transmission jack to lower it safely. It's possible to do without one, if you can easily bench a large amount of oddly shaped weight.
Removing the old clutch is easy enough. Installing the new one isn't hard either. Most clutch kits come with a little alignment tool, but this isn't 100% necessary as long as you're careful while installing the new parts.
After you're done with this, just put the transmission back, make sure everything's tight, and start her up.
I would estimate this to take the better part of a day for a newbie. It's probably a few hours of chargeable work to a service tech. And it's much much easier with the car on a lift.
MBR, the transmission has to be removed to replace the clutch. I don't know how difficult it is or how to do it, I just know that I am not going to do it until my BACKYARD HACK skills have improved significantly.
Z, that was the kicker for me. I called my independent mechanic that I trust for all things that don't involve a choice about Dinan, told him the price ($565 I think) and he said do it. The price might be a little high, but it's much less than the independent place could do it for b/c they were only charging labor to install the parts, not take the transmission off and put it back on (I think best case was $800 from them depending on what they had to do inside).
lemming
04-21-2004, 02:38 PM
BMW clutches are notorious for not lasting long in the "new BMW era".
since the entire bellhousing is completely enclosed and sealed pretty well, the clutch dust stays in there nice and percolates around and helps speed clutch wear and tear.
it's either that or the lousy dual mass flywheel. just a question of time. now you can get a lightweight flywheel though, huh?
...uh, yeah. I just re-read my post and I sound like a lunatic. Take it to a shop unless you're comfortable and confident in your abilities and you can deal with some downtime (in case you need to track down an errant tool).
The GOOD! - SES light is indeed the cam sensor, covered under the CPO warrant for $50 deductible.
The VERY GOOD! - Shifter resting under fifth gear is indead a known defect and the transmission replacement is covered under the CPO warranty for $50 deductible. (I argued with the service writer about this - when he called to tell me the "good news" and apologize for the argument, he claimed he asked all around the shop and nobody there had heard of it before. Whatever.)
The bad - I had them check the clutch - about 15% life left and almost down to the rivets. I don't know if I don't get along with this clutch (doubtful), the original owner was bad with a clutch (who knows) or the test drives put on the car before it was sold destroyed it (likely). The car had something like 600 miles on it before it was sold. I bought it at 34k. I have NEVER had to replace a clutch at 50k miles before. It bugs me. :(
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to replace a clutch? I mean, I know it is not a piece of cake, but just how bad is it to DIY?Clutch? Not too bad.
I mean, relative to some other stuff I've done, it was a piece of cake. ;)
Seriously though, in most cars the transmission has to be removed first. This is not so bad in theory, but it can be a bear in practice unless/until you pick up a few special tools (crows-foot wrench, or other type things) to get access to some of the bolts with the car on jackstands. The tools aren't expensive. When the tranny is free of the car, you will want a transmission jack to lower it safely. It's possible to do without one, if you can easily bench a large amount of oddly shaped weight.
Removing the old clutch is easy enough. Installing the new one isn't hard either. Most clutch kits come with a little alignment tool, but this isn't 100% necessary as long as you're careful while installing the new parts.
After you're done with this, just put the transmission back, make sure everything's tight, and start her up.
I would estimate this to take the better part of a day for a newbie. It's probably a few hours of chargeable work to a service tech. And it's much much easier with the car on a lift.
Some day, I hope to have your confidence, Blee. :worship
BMW clutches are notorious for not lasting long in the "new BMW era".
since the entire bellhousing is completely enclosed and sealed pretty well, the clutch dust stays in there nice and percolates around and helps speed clutch wear and tear.
it's either that or the lousy dual mass flywheel. just a question of time. now you can get a lightweight flywheel though, huh?
:dunno: I know a few E36 M3 people with close to 100k on their cars on the original clutch. That's not typical, but typical clutch life in those cars seems to be in the 65k - 80k area with moderately aggressive driving. Those Sachs units are real tough. My '88 clutch still had a TON of material left on the disc surface when I pulled it at 82000.
I don't expect to have to worry about this for quite a while. And for sure, I'd assume the car to be dissabled for a week (just in case). But as long as the cost is mostly labor, I'd be willing to do it myself if I had to.
How much for a new clutch?
I don't expect to have to worry about this for quite a while. And for sure, I'd assume the car to be dissabled for a week (just in case). But as long as the cost is mostly labor, I'd be willing to do it myself if I had to.
How much for a new clutch?New clutches are relatively cheap. Can't remember the exact price, but definitely under $400 and maybe closer to $250. The OEM unit is most likely a Sachs.
Assuming the dealer is charging me about 1.5 hours of labor to put it in, that $565 price comes out to a little over $400 for parts for an e36 clutch. I think my mechanic said to expect somewhere around $425. I don't know if those are competitive prices, but Turner has a clutch kit for $284. I don't know if the price from the dealer is unreasonable or it include additional "stuff." Oh yeah, it does include resurfacing the flywheel (I think it's the flywheel - I am not familiar with all the parts and I keep getting them confused - would you need to resurface a flywheel?).
I decided against the light weight flywheel for now. I know I am going to regret it in a few months, but there are other things I want to do to the car in the near future and that one is not on the high priority list for some reason. It would have been another unexpected $500 - $500 that is marked to go towards the suspension.
zcasavant
04-21-2004, 03:25 PM
Assuming the dealer is charging me about 1.5 hours of labor to put it in, that $565 price comes out to a little over $400 for parts for an e36 clutch. I think my mechanic said to expect somewhere around $425. I don't know if those are competitive prices, but Turner has a clutch kit for $284. I don't know if the price from the dealer is unreasonable or it include additional "stuff." Oh yeah, it does include resurfacing the flywheel (I think it's the flywheel - I am not familiar with all the parts and I keep getting them confused - would you need to resurface a flywheel?).
I decided against the light weight flywheel for now. I know I am going to regret it in a few months, but there are other things I want to do to the car in the near future and that one is not on the high priority list for some reason. It would have been another unexpected $500 - $500 that is marked to go towards the suspension.
Talk to TD about the cost of clutch replacement while getting your tranny replaced under warranty. He had it done a while back.
Assuming the dealer is charging me about 1.5 hours of labor to put it in, that $565 price comes out to a little over $400 for parts for an e36 clutch. I think my mechanic said to expect somewhere around $425. I don't know if those are competitive prices, but Turner has a clutch kit for $284. I don't know if the price from the dealer is unreasonable or it include additional "stuff." Oh yeah, it does include resurfacing the flywheel (I think it's the flywheel - I am not familiar with all the parts and I keep getting them confused - would you need to resurface a flywheel?).
I decided against the light weight flywheel for now. I know I am going to regret it in a few months, but there are other things I want to do to the car in the near future and that one is not on the high priority list for some reason. It would have been another unexpected $500 - $500 that is marked to go towards the suspension.Yes. The flywheel needs to be resurfaced or replaced. Resurfacing is all that is necessary; if you're going to replace it, you might as well get a lightweight version if you can spend the $. Basically, your new friction disc needs a nice surface to rub against. It's sort of like turning a brake rotor.
zcasavant
04-21-2004, 03:29 PM
Assuming the dealer is charging me about 1.5 hours of labor to put it in, that $565 price comes out to a little over $400 for parts for an e36 clutch. I think my mechanic said to expect somewhere around $425. I don't know if those are competitive prices, but Turner has a clutch kit for $284. I don't know if the price from the dealer is unreasonable or it include additional "stuff." Oh yeah, it does include resurfacing the flywheel (I think it's the flywheel - I am not familiar with all the parts and I keep getting them confused - would you need to resurface a flywheel?).
I decided against the light weight flywheel for now. I know I am going to regret it in a few months, but there are other things I want to do to the car in the near future and that one is not on the high priority list for some reason. It would have been another unexpected $500 - $500 that is marked to go towards the suspension.Yes. The flywheel needs to be resurfaced or replaced. Resurfacing is all that is necessary; if you're going to replace it, you might as well get a lightweight version if you can spend the $. Basically, your new friction disc needs a nice surface to rub against. It's sort of like turning a brake rotor.
If you go ltw with the flywheel, be prepared to replace the clutch master (?) cylinder as well. You'll also need an e34 M5 clutch. Also be prepared for some rattling.
Assuming the dealer is charging me about 1.5 hours of labor to put it in, that $565 price comes out to a little over $400 for parts for an e36 clutch. I think my mechanic said to expect somewhere around $425. I don't know if those are competitive prices, but Turner has a clutch kit for $284. I don't know if the price from the dealer is unreasonable or it include additional "stuff." Oh yeah, it does include resurfacing the flywheel (I think it's the flywheel - I am not familiar with all the parts and I keep getting them confused - would you need to resurface a flywheel?).
I decided against the light weight flywheel for now. I know I am going to regret it in a few months, but there are other things I want to do to the car in the near future and that one is not on the high priority list for some reason. It would have been another unexpected $500 - $500 that is marked to go towards the suspension.Yes. The flywheel needs to be resurfaced or replaced. Resurfacing is all that is necessary; if you're going to replace it, you might as well get a lightweight version if you can spend the $. Basically, your new friction disc needs a nice surface to rub against. It's sort of like turning a brake rotor.
If you go ltw with the flywheel, be prepared to replace the clutch master (?) cylinder as well. You'll also need an e34 M5 clutch. Also be prepared for some rattling.Do all E36 M3 ltw flywheels require that much effort? Mine just plopped right in, no other mods necessary.
zcasavant
04-21-2004, 03:48 PM
Assuming the dealer is charging me about 1.5 hours of labor to put it in, that $565 price comes out to a little over $400 for parts for an e36 clutch. I think my mechanic said to expect somewhere around $425. I don't know if those are competitive prices, but Turner has a clutch kit for $284. I don't know if the price from the dealer is unreasonable or it include additional "stuff." Oh yeah, it does include resurfacing the flywheel (I think it's the flywheel - I am not familiar with all the parts and I keep getting them confused - would you need to resurface a flywheel?).
I decided against the light weight flywheel for now. I know I am going to regret it in a few months, but there are other things I want to do to the car in the near future and that one is not on the high priority list for some reason. It would have been another unexpected $500 - $500 that is marked to go towards the suspension.Yes. The flywheel needs to be resurfaced or replaced. Resurfacing is all that is necessary; if you're going to replace it, you might as well get a lightweight version if you can spend the $. Basically, your new friction disc needs a nice surface to rub against. It's sort of like turning a brake rotor.
If you go ltw with the flywheel, be prepared to replace the clutch master (?) cylinder as well. You'll also need an e34 M5 clutch. Also be prepared for some rattling.Do all E36 M3 ltw flywheels require that much effort? Mine just plopped right in, no other mods necessary.
I don't know. I just remember TD having to replace one of the clutch cylinders. That said, the mod is said to really awaken the e36 M3. :P
If you go ltw with the flywheel, be prepared to replace the clutch master (?) cylinder as well. You'll also need an e34 M5 clutch. Also be prepared for some rattling.
See? All good reasons not to replace the flywheel right now.
zcasavant
04-21-2004, 03:50 PM
If you go ltw with the flywheel, be prepared to replace the clutch master (?) cylinder as well. You'll also need an e34 M5 clutch. Also be prepared for some rattling.
See? All good reasons not to replace the flywheel right now.
Do it now, or never do it. Might as well take care of any possible clutch/tranny issues while the tranny is being replaced.
The GOOD! - SES light is indeed the cam sensor, covered under the CPO warrant for $50 deductible.
The VERY GOOD! - Shifter resting under fifth gear is indead a known defect and the transmission replacement is covered under the CPO warranty for $50 deductible. (I argued with the service writer about this - when he called to tell me the "good news" and apologize for the argument, he claimed he asked all around the shop and nobody there had heard of it before. Whatever.)
The bad - I had them check the clutch - about 15% life left and almost down to the rivets. I don't know if I don't get along with this clutch (doubtful), the original owner was bad with a clutch (who knows) or the test drives put on the car before it was sold destroyed it (likely). The car had something like 600 miles on it before it was sold. I bought it at 34k. I have NEVER had to replace a clutch at 50k miles before. It bugs me. :(
DAM DAM DAM!! :evil:
I am not under CPO. My clutch better last and NO cam sensor crap EITHER!!
Oh congrats on the New tranny!! :twisted:
ARCHER
04-21-2004, 06:14 PM
When the tranny is free of the car, you will want a transmission jack to lower it safely. It's possible to do without one, if you can easily bench a large amount of oddly shaped weight.
This is exactly the way my dad and I did it on my Toyota pickup - lying on my back. Not fun, but it got the job done.
lemming
04-21-2004, 06:49 PM
the lightweight flywheel helps a bunch just getting past that sort of dead spot in the M52 around 4500rpms? it blows past that and into the redline. the added clatter is bothersome to some, i didn't notice it at all.
i didn't own my e36m3 long enough to have to do any tranny or clutch work, but i did it on the e36/8 because the supercharger kit ate the OEM clutch alive and i wasn't drag racing at all. just accelerating with not high rpm clutch drops.
the e46 clutch feels so spongy and awful it's going to be hard to tell when that sucker is going to go. i doubt that car will stay in the household much longer than the warranty period. i don't trust all of the electronic gimmicks to hold up and i know the standard non-M running gear won't, either.
The HACK
04-21-2004, 07:37 PM
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to replace a clutch? I mean, I know it is not a piece of cake, but just how bad is it to DIY?
I've been dying to do one. You will need to loosen the engine mounts and be able to hoist the engine up-wards to be able to get to the screws holding the transmission to the engine on the top of the transmission tunnel though. That's the hardest part.
Otherwise the entire procedure is all bolt on.
The HACK
04-21-2004, 07:42 PM
I don't know. I just remember TD having to replace one of the clutch cylinders. That said, the mod is said to really awaken the e36 M3. :P
I'm almost certain it was the slave cylinder...
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to replace a clutch? I mean, I know it is not a piece of cake, but just how bad is it to DIY?
I've been dying to do one. You will need to loosen the engine mounts and be able to hoist the engine up-wards to be able to get to the screws holding the transmission to the engine on the top of the transmission tunnel though. That's the hardest part.
Otherwise the entire procedure is all bolt on.
I see. My dad bought a tool rental business, so now I have cheap access to heavy tools (lifts, etc). But again, that's nothing I have to worry about for a few years.
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to replace a clutch? I mean, I know it is not a piece of cake, but just how bad is it to DIY?
I've been dying to do one. You will need to loosen the engine mounts and be able to hoist the engine up-wards to be able to get to the screws holding the transmission to the engine on the top of the transmission tunnel though. That's the hardest part.
Otherwise the entire procedure is all bolt on.
Now you tell me . . .
Still, I could always let you play with my transmission to help install the Rogue ssk for a trial. :D
ARCHER
04-22-2004, 12:14 AM
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to replace a clutch? I mean, I know it is not a piece of cake, but just how bad is it to DIY?
I've been dying to do one. You will need to loosen the engine mounts and be able to hoist the engine up-wards to be able to get to the screws holding the transmission to the engine on the top of the transmission tunnel though. That's the hardest part.
Otherwise the entire procedure is all bolt on.
Seriously - on the E36, you have to unseat the engine to do the clutch?
My transmission experience is only with E30s, but the four bolts that attach the transmission to the bellhousing are accessible if you use the right socket extensions. One of them required a series of long extensions along with a crow's foot wrench. Others have also used crescent wrenches or sockets turned on lathes to make the necessary clearance.
The HACK
04-22-2004, 12:46 AM
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to replace a clutch? I mean, I know it is not a piece of cake, but just how bad is it to DIY?
I've been dying to do one. You will need to loosen the engine mounts and be able to hoist the engine up-wards to be able to get to the screws holding the transmission to the engine on the top of the transmission tunnel though. That's the hardest part.
Otherwise the entire procedure is all bolt on.
Seriously - on the E36, you have to unseat the engine to do the clutch?
From what I can see, on the E46 there's not enough clearance to stick a tool in there. You need to hoist the engine off the mounts to get to 2 of the in-accessible bolts holding the tranny down. Same needs to be said when tightening.
Dunno about the E36, can't be THAT much more complicated, no?
EDIT: Hm, went back and read some of the TIS instructions and it mentions NOTHING about hoisting the engine up to create clearance. Perhaps there IS enough room to work there.
Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to replace a clutch? I mean, I know it is not a piece of cake, but just how bad is it to DIY?
I've been dying to do one. You will need to loosen the engine mounts and be able to hoist the engine up-wards to be able to get to the screws holding the transmission to the engine on the top of the transmission tunnel though. That's the hardest part.
Otherwise the entire procedure is all bolt on.
Seriously - on the E36, you have to unseat the engine to do the clutch?
From what I can see, on the E46 there's not enough clearance to stick a tool in there. You need to hoist the engine off the mounts to get to 2 of the in-accessible bolts holding the tranny down. Same needs to be said when tightening.
Dunno about the E36, can't be THAT much more complicated, no?
EDIT: Hm, went back and read some of the TIS instructions and it mentions NOTHING about hoisting the engine up to create clearance. Perhaps there IS enough room to work there.
I was having my doubts. I mean, with today's emphasis to engineer products with DFMA (design for manufacturability and assembly) in mind, it would seem crazy to require moving the engine at all to access the transmission. Maybe BMW dealers have some crazy custom tool.
Rather than hoist the engine, my guess is that you just need a few "unusual" tools to get around some of the trickier spots. It's all doable with the car on jackstands.
ARCHER
04-22-2004, 10:18 AM
Dunno about the E36, can't be THAT much more complicated, no?
EDIT: Hm, went back and read some of the TIS instructions and it mentions NOTHING about hoisting the engine up to create clearance. Perhaps there IS enough room to work there.
I remember Emission mentioning helping a buddy clutch his E36 M3. If I recall correctly, he did mention a bolt on top of the bell housing that was tough to access.
Now I'm curious. I'll have to shoot him an e-mail and find out.
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