Want a brand new E30?

[JST]

Buy a WRX.

It is what the E30 was.

Sad, but the WRX is more fun to drive than the E46 M3.

Not faster, you understand.

But more fun.


That is all.

[Mr Paddle.Shift]

Hrmm...hopefully I am not hijacking the thread. But had a chance to sit in and observe a SAABaru up close. What's with that really? The VIN plate says SAAB but the rivets that held it down says Subaru. I know GM is trying to reduce time-to-market, but still...the whole Swedish thing is gone. Gone, I say.

[JST]

Hrmm...hopefully I am not hijacking the thread. But had a chance to sit in and observe a SAABaru up close. What's with that really? The VIN plate says SAAB but the rivets that held it down says Subaru. I know GM is trying to reduce time-to-market, but still...the whole Swedish thing is gone. Gone, I say.

No offense to TD, but I bet that the SAABaru is more fun to drive than any of the "Swedish" Saabs are.

[TD]

Our Saab fits a purpose. It is not delusional (although it will waste many/most riceboys - which is always very satisfying).

[Mr Paddle.Shift]

Not sure about that. But it drove worst than a WRX. :shock:

[Mr Paddle.Shift]

TD, I have always love the SAAB design. In fact, I make it a point to sit through all SAAB commercials. Perhaps it was fate that no SAAB dealers gave me a chance (snobbish ones here in So Cal) to test drive the 93, otherwise I *just* might buy a SAAB over a 325.

[blee]

Want a brand new E30?

Well, how about an old E30 with a brand new engine? :D

[lemming]

Buy a WRX.

It is what the E30 was.

Sad, but the WRX is more fun to drive than the E46 M3.

Not faster, you understand.

But more fun.


That is all.

W O W.

i know where you're coming from, of course.

the WRX is and was more fun to drive than the 993.

the STi distilled all of the good things about the WRX, turned the HP to 11, and flat out spanked the 993 in any parameter you can think of -it did it better.

_________________

is it more fun because you still get the acceleration rush, but you don't have that big $$$$ worry when you drive it and thrash it? park it anywhere you want. take it wherever you want in the city?

[lemming]

WAIT>

i just want to add one more thing. there is a huge difference between how these two cars relate to the "average" cars of their eras.

yes, both the e30 and the wrx outperform the average car of their respective eras, but the price/performance equation is smashed by the WRX whereas the BMWs were even more expensive then than they are now (i bet).

BMW has always been a relatively elite car because it's pretty difficult to afford even as a grown adult. this is not precisely applicable to the WRX. this is a huge difference in demographics, obviously, due to this accessibility.

it's why people like TD wouldn't ever buy a WRX even if we tell him until we're blue our faces how great they are. it's why cars like the r32 exist. not because they're better at anything dynamically, but because they sell a more elite lifestyle a little removed from the riffraff and ricers.

[JST]

WAIT>

i just want to add one more thing. there is a huge difference between how these two cars relate to the "average" cars of their eras.

yes, both the e30 and the wrx outperform the average car of their respective eras, but the price/performance equation is smashed by the WRX whereas the BMWs were even more expensive then than they are now (i bet).

BMW has always been a relatively elite car because it's pretty difficult to afford even as a grown adult. this is not precisely applicable to the WRX. this is a huge difference in demographics, obviously, due to this accessibility.

it's why people like TD wouldn't ever buy a WRX even if we tell him until we're blue our faces how great they are. it's why cars like the r32 exist. not because they're better at anything dynamically, but because they sell a more elite lifestyle a little removed from the riffraff and ricers.

Well, right.

I was talking about driving dynamics, not so much demographics.

And you are correct on the relative performance. Even the top of the line M3, which was 34K in 1988 dollars, wasn't a very fast car in its time. Mustangs, for example, were just as fast or faster.

[elbert]

Sad, but the WRX is more fun to drive than the E46 M3.


So....how much for your M3? :drool:

[lemming]

WAIT>

i just want to add one more thing. there is a huge difference between how these two cars relate to the "average" cars of their eras.

yes, both the e30 and the wrx outperform the average car of their respective eras, but the price/performance equation is smashed by the WRX whereas the BMWs were even more expensive then than they are now (i bet).

BMW has always been a relatively elite car because it's pretty difficult to afford even as a grown adult. this is not precisely applicable to the WRX. this is a huge difference in demographics, obviously, due to this accessibility.

it's why people like TD wouldn't ever buy a WRX even if we tell him until we're blue our faces how great they are. it's why cars like the r32 exist. not because they're better at anything dynamically, but because they sell a more elite lifestyle a little removed from the riffraff and ricers.

Well, right.

I was talking about driving dynamics, not so much demographics.

And you are correct on the relative performance. Even the top of the line M3, which was 34K in 1988 dollars, wasn't a very fast car in its time. Mustangs, for example, were just as fast or faster.

relative to the "average" or even median price of a new car in the US these days, the e46m3 isn't all that much if you consider it can be had for $48-$50k.

but $34k in 1988 money is much, much more than the average car cost in that era.

[JST]

Sad, but the WRX is more fun to drive than the E46 M3.


So....how much for your M3? :drool:

I'll take lease payoff for it, which is aobut 41.5. Right in line with market, actually.

[clyde]

relative to the "average" or even median price of a new car in the US these days, the e46m3 isn't all that much if you consider it can be had for $48-$50k.

The average new car sale price in 2003 was a couple ticks over $30k For reference, it was $20k in 1994 and $10k in 1986.

Although the price of a new M3 is closer to the average now than it was in the E30 days, 66% is still a significant premium.

[FC]

relative to the "average" or even median price of a new car in the US these days, the e46m3 isn't all that much if you consider it can be had for $48-$50k.

The average new car sale price in 2003 was a couple ticks over $30k For reference, it was $20k in 1994 and $10k in 1986.

Although the price of a new M3 is closer to the average now than it was in the E30 days, 66% is still a significant premium.

I agree, plus it seems people are leasing their way into much more expensive cars nowadays. I saw some numbers on how proportionately people spend more on cars than they did before (car MSRP is a greater % of income than before).

[clyde]

BMW has always been a relatively elite car because it's pretty difficult to afford even as a grown adult. this is not precisely applicable to the WRX. this is a huge difference in demographics, obviously, due to this accessibility.

it's why people like TD wouldn't ever buy a WRX even if we tell him until we're blue our faces how great they are. it's why cars like the r32 exist. not because they're better at anything dynamically, but because they sell a more elite lifestyle a little removed from the riffraff and ricers.

Are you suggesting that TD has been co-opted by the BMW ///Marketing machine; that he's incapable of making his own choices and completely programmed by Madison Avenue?

Still, branding matters even to those of us that would like to think otherwise. The idea that VW is selling "a more elite lifestyle" would border on silly if it wasn't for the fact that the people's car company is a recipient of the false perception of superior German engineering. The R32 is as much of a ricer as anything coming from Japan regardless of the fact that it's powered by sauerkraut rather than actual rice.

[JST]

BMW has always been a relatively elite car because it's pretty difficult to afford even as a grown adult. this is not precisely applicable to the WRX. this is a huge difference in demographics, obviously, due to this accessibility.

it's why people like TD wouldn't ever buy a WRX even if we tell him until we're blue our faces how great they are. it's why cars like the r32 exist. not because they're better at anything dynamically, but because they sell a more elite lifestyle a little removed from the riffraff and ricers.

Are you suggesting that TD has been co-opted by the BMW ///Marketing machine; that he's incapable of making his own choices and completely programmed by Madison Avenue?

Still, branding matters even to those of us that would like to think otherwise. The idea that VW is selling "a more elite lifestyle" would border on silly if it wasn't for the fact that the people's car company is a recipient of the false perception of superior German engineering. The R32 is as much of a ricer as anything coming from Japan regardless of the fact that it's powered by sauerkraut rather than actual rice.

Before we all pile on TD and the R32, I have to (again) come to the defense of that particular car. There are legitimate reasons to choose that car over the WRX that have nothing to do with branding or image. The interior is a hell of a lot nicer, the seats are better (both in terms of comfort and bolstering), and it generally comports itself in a manner that is more refined than the WRX.

Is it more fun to drive than the WRX? Probably not, but in many ways it is easier to live with as a daily driver.

My point was just that the WRX resembles the E30--it's got the same upright, kind of tippy bearing, the same excellent visibility, the same level of driver involvement, the same feeling of lightness, the same feeling that the car is first sport and second sedan (or wagon), rather than the other way around. Someone who pines for an E30 M3 but doesn't want an old car should drive a WRX, is all I'm arguing.

[Lartymarf]

JST,

Have you driven the STi or the Mitsu Evo8?
How does WRX compare to those?

Andrew and I should be at the wheels of an R32 this weekend. Afterwards, we will have completed test driving the trio of 30k monsters. Evo, STi, and R32, with the R32 being the last one to try. We'll report back.

Jimmy

[TD]

Damn, I go away for a while and everyone starts telling me what I'm thinking...

For the record, I'm not. Thinking, that is. Too tired.

But the last thing I can recall thinking on the topic really only had very little to do with status. VWs aren't exactly drawing badge buyers.

However, I will say that certain traits beyond the driving experience itself DO matter to me: appearance inside and out and the tactile feel of the switchgear come to mind immediately. And appearance includes not looking garish or cheesy outside or like a stripped economy-car inside.

And, I suppose image comes into play in the sense that one cannot deny that cars do convey impressions about their owners. And the youthful garishness of rice is not something I feel any desire to convey.

But pardon me while I go back to my drooling, non-thinking state...

[JST]

JST,

Have you driven the STi or the Mitsu Evo8?
How does WRX compare to those?

Andrew and I should be at the wheels of an R32 this weekend. Afterwards, we will have completed test driving the trio of 30k monsters. Evo, STi, and R32, with the R32 being the last one to try. We'll report back.

Jimmy

No, I haven't driven either one yet. Need to do that at some point, but probably not until I get serious about finding a replacement for the M3 next year.

[lemming]

JST,

Have you driven the STi or the Mitsu Evo8?
How does WRX compare to those?

Andrew and I should be at the wheels of an R32 this weekend. Afterwards, we will have completed test driving the trio of 30k monsters. Evo, STi, and R32, with the R32 being the last one to try. We'll report back.

Jimmy

No, I haven't driven either one yet. Need to do that at some point, but probably not until I get serious about finding a replacement for the M3 next year.

TD: that wasn't judgemental, it was reiterating your poing which you aren't shy about stating: you don't want to convey rice. that's that. you miss out, though, pal.

JeSTer: the STi has funny handling. it's more vague at the limit because you have to learn to drive with that front LSD contraption. more power everywhere. no lag. nicer shifting 6 speed. stronger brake that never fade (in my hands).

the Evo is sharp. has that cannonball of an engine that waits. waits. BOOM. then you're off.

to be honest, i like the WRX because it lacks the spoilers of the STi or Evo, costs less, but you don't lose all that much. for "someone" who will be using it as a commuter and not a primary car, it's a great value proposition. ahem. especially if you've got something a lot faster as your trump card. it's just a waste of money to spend the extra 6-8k of money.

;)

[ayn]

I love the spoilers on the Evo8 and STi, and I'm talking about the BIG CF one on the Evo8, it's adjustable too!

R32 doesn't have one like that, not sure how we'll like it tomorrow. LOL!

There are a lot of cars that are more fun than the E46, but the E46 probably has the best compromise between comfort and performance. We are on this board and *most* of us would probably like more performance and fun on our E46s, but I've met a lot of ppl who still thinks the steering is too stiff, the suspension is too stiff, etc etc. The M3 is excellent, but a bit too expensive. The Perf Pkg is almost there, but it lacks LSD and SMG. Actually if I get an Evo8, it is because I want more power at the tighter corners at the track!

--Andrew

[bren]

...co-opted by the BMW ///Marketing machine....
I think I'm going to have to borrow that :lol:

[Nick M3]

...co-opted by the BMW ///Marketing machine....
I think I'm going to have to borrow that :lol:

I like ///Marketeer. :D

[ed328ci]

I like the WRX, but I just can't get pass it's homely exterior. Even the pedestrian interior is OK. But, man, it is still an unattractive car. The STi is a great car, but why did they have to attach a picnic table spoiler on to the trunk?

Ed

[lemming]

I like the WRX, but I just can't get pass it's homely exterior. Even the pedestrian interior is OK. But, man, it is still an unattractive car. The STi is a great car, but why did they have to attach a picnic table spoiler on to the trunk?

Ed

all i have to say is: wait for the new legacy GT and legacy GT STi's to come over to the US.

the base engine is 250hp and it will likely be a lot more low key than the impreza WRX STi.

[JST]

I like the WRX, but I just can't get pass it's homely exterior. Even the pedestrian interior is OK. But, man, it is still an unattractive car. The STi is a great car, but why did they have to attach a picnic table spoiler on to the trunk?

Ed

The spolier is starting to grow on me. :paranoid:

[clyde]

I like the WRX, but I just can't get pass it's homely exterior. Even the pedestrian interior is OK. But, man, it is still an unattractive car. The STi is a great car, but why did they have to attach a picnic table spoiler on to the trunk?

Ed

The spolier is starting to grow on me. :paranoid:
I'm sure if you asked, Fatih would let you autocross his. It's a fun car...like the WRX on methamphetamines.

[FT@SGP]

Buy a WRX.

It is what the E30 was.

Sad, but the WRX is more fun to drive than the E46 M3.

Not faster, you understand.

But more fun.

That is all.

That is exactly what I felt with the STi, first time I drove it. I could not believe how much fun and true to performance it is, very similar to E30 M3 in its era, while under such an unattractive package :)

The wing grew on me as well, I was initially going to take it off, but it is part of its character that I came to like a lot.

I think you better understand my comments now, when I said "I am not buying another BMW again" :)

You certainly can drive the STi, possibly 2nd heat on 17 if you are there. Mike Cole will be driving first heat, I am on 3rd heat.

The driving characteristics between WRX and STi are very different. You really have to learn how to drive an STi properly. That happens over time. The main differences are obviously the power, but more so with the center and front differentials. Also, there are some minor suspension geometry changes on the STi that makes it behave a little differently. The WRX is very similar to Evo in handling, just needs wider tires and thicker A/R bars.

However, I do not think the STi is an M3 replacement. They target different people. But as I mentioned previously, hopefully without offending anyone too much, I would not pay the money for an M3; BMWs are out of my book for sometime to come.

[lemming]

Buy a WRX.

It is what the E30 was.

Sad, but the WRX is more fun to drive than the E46 M3.

Not faster, you understand.

But more fun.

That is all.

That is exactly what I felt with the STi, first time I drove it. I could not believe how much fun and true to performance it is, very similar to E30 M3 in its era, while under such an unattractive package :)

The wing grew on me as well, I was initially going to take it off, but it is part of its character that I came to like a lot.

I think you better understand my comments now, when I said "I am not buying another BMW again" :)

You certainly can drive the STi, possibly 2nd heat on 17 if you are there. Mike Cole will be driving first heat, I am on 3rd heat.

The driving characteristics between WRX and STi are very different. You really have to learn how to drive an STi properly. That happens over time. The main differences are obviously the power, but more so with the center and front differentials. Also, there are some minor suspension geometry changes on the STi that makes it behave a little differently. The WRX is very similar to Evo in handling, just needs wider tires and thicker A/R bars.

However, I do not think the STi is an M3 replacement. They target different people. But as I mentioned previously, hopefully without offending anyone too much, I would not pay the money for an M3; BMWs are out of my book for sometime to come.

what are you tweaking on the STi to dial out the understeer and to fight off some of the vagueness of the front LSD?

just curious.

did not know if it was as easy as swapping out the OEM swaybars for the CobbTuning ones or what.

[FT@SGP]

what are you tweaking on the STi to dial out the understeer and to fight off some of the vagueness of the front LSD?

just curious.

did not know if it was as easy as swapping out the OEM swaybars for the CobbTuning ones or what.
Few things:

- driver expectation training :) If you revise your expectations that might be influenced from a Bimmer platform, that is half the way. You just need to know that the STi will behave differently.

- Finding the proper DCCD setting makes a big difference. Auto mode in autocross works great but on track different settings work better depending on the track layout.

- Whitline steering bushings is a low-cost ($30) modification that generates noticeable improvements.

- front A/R bar improvement also generates significant benefits

- However, especially with the STi, a proper coilover setup yields the best benefits. I am not a fan of the stock suspension setup.

- rear lateral and control arms are also pontential upgrades; specifically for controlling camber and toe changes.

- Front anti-lift kit from Whiteline or PSRS from Perrin are also great addition for better steering and adding caster.

[lemming]

what are you tweaking on the STi to dial out the understeer and to fight off some of the vagueness of the front LSD?

just curious.

did not know if it was as easy as swapping out the OEM swaybars for the CobbTuning ones or what.
Few things:

- driver expectation training :) If you revise your expectations that might be influenced from a Bimmer platform, that is half the way. You just need to know that the STi will behave differently.

- Finding the proper DCCD setting makes a big difference. Auto mode in autocross works great but on track different settings work better depending on the track layout.

- Whitline steering bushings is a low-cost ($30) modification that generates noticeable improvements.

- front A/R bar improvement also generates significant benefits

- However, especially with the STi, a proper coilover setup yields the best benefits. I am not a fan of the stock suspension setup.

- rear lateral and control arms are also pontential upgrades; specifically for controlling camber and toe changes.

- Front anti-lift kit from Whiteline or PSRS from Perrin are also great addition for better steering and adding caster.

all in all, not much, really, to get it optimized for the track, huh? mainly brake fade and dialing in the suspension?

plenty of power there.

:smile:

[FT@SGP]

Yes, costs are not that much, depending on your objectives.

Brake fade is an issue due to pads and limited air circulation. There are few tricks for that as well of course :) We are in the process of obtaining better rotors for track duty and also brake cooling ducts.

For the power it has, the STi truly needs better rotors and cooling for track duty.