Drove an E30 M3 today (review)

[blee]

No, I won't write the whole thing out. Maybe I will later, but right now I'm pretty exhausted from running the autocross today. I brought my M3 to its first autocross after the rebuild today. In addition to my runs, JST got to take it for a spin on regular streets and Nick actually ran it in a later heat. Perhaps they will chime in.

In a nutshell, driving my car at the limit made me seriously rethink my gushing for the GTI yesterday. Yes, the 1.8T is still a great engine, and I'm still impressed with its off-the-line performance. But after driving the car in its powerband and just drinking in the whole experience -- engine sound, power rush, throttle behavior -- I realize that I really appreciate top-end power. I think I need to revisit the Mazda and make my final decision, but only after thrashing my M3 immediately beforehand.

Some cars are never meant for cupholders. My M3 is one of them.

[Nick M3]

My perspective may well be tainted by the fact that I've never autoxed a RWD car before... But basically, I left Rosecroft with this big stupid grin on my face. Whereas autoxing the wagon is really an exercise in patience and frustration, the M3 was just seriously fun. On my last run, I finally really started to figure out how to drive that car and my time started to plunge. I don't think I can explain to you guys exactly how wonderful it is to drive a car that actually wants to turn.

http://www.nrubenstein.com/albums/album04/NSR000156DSC_0144.sized.jpg
http://www.nrubenstein.com/albums/album04/NSR000176DSC_0164.sized.jpg

[JST]

No, I won't write the whole thing out. Maybe I will later, but right now I'm pretty exhausted from running the autocross today. I brought my M3 to its first autocross after the rebuild today. In addition to my runs, JST got to take it for a spin on regular streets and Nick actually ran it in a later heat. Perhaps they will chime in.

In a nutshell, driving my car at the limit made me seriously rethink my gushing for the GTI yesterday. Yes, the 1.8T is still a great engine, and I'm still impressed with its off-the-line performance. But after driving the car in its powerband and just drinking in the whole experience -- engine sound, power rush, throttle behavior -- I realize that I really appreciate top-end power. I think I need to revisit the Mazda and make my final decision, but only after thrashing my M3 immediately beforehand.

Some cars are never meant for cupholders. My M3 is one of them.

A couple of thoughts. First, blee did a first rate job on the engine work on this car. It's really well screwed together.

Second, this is a 16 year old car, and it feels like it. That's both good and bad. On the good side, this car has a directness that modern cars can only dream about. Even the WRX feels a bit isolated compared to this thing. The steering is outstanding, even if it is controlled by a gigantic steering wheel that doesn't adjust for reach or rake, as far as I could tell. ASC? No. DSC? No. There aren't any buttons to push or systems to disable--just get in it and stand on it.

The engine is really willing to rev (in part because of the lightened flywheel), and it goes without saying that there's no throttle lag or any other such nonsense. It's light, too, and though it's not fast, the engine has enough torque to break traction when driven moderately aggressively. The handling is fluid and honest--the car it reminds me most of is a Miata, though because it's relatively so tall, it's like a Miata on tip-toes. An MCS is also close, but the M3 drives the correct wheels and the difference in feel from that is remarkable. Rotating the rear on this car is not a problem.

The downside? The engine is very, very peaky. It behaves like a turbocharged unit--the power is very good above 4K RPM, but under 4K there's not much there. It's slightly more linear than the delivery in the WRX 2.0L, but not very much. The shifter has loong throws (even with an SSK), and is quite notchy. You get used to it fairly quickly, but this isn't a rifle-bolt S2K type shifter. The damping is also probably not what it should be--blee's car has the original suspension and 82K miles on it, so wear is probably the culprit here, but especially compared to the E46, the E30 wallowed a bit over bumps.

Probably the biggest Achilles heel of this car, though, is that it's just not that fast. There's a lot of drama, and it's fun to drive, but while a long blast through the gears gives you a lot of aural satisfaction, it never really throws you back in your seat. The benefit of that, of course, is that you can have fun driving on real roads, whereas a car as fast as the E46 seems bored at anything less than 70 mph. At the same time, when the Civic Si with the body kit pulls up next to you and revs his engine, you don't have anything to dispatch him with.

This would be a fun weekend car to bomb around in, and I do wish I'd gotten the chance to autocross it yesterday.

[blee]

Although most people say that the car is made for track time (and yes, it does absolutely shine there, passing cars that it isn't supposed to), it's great fun at an autocross. The top-end pull in second gear is strong enough to get you through the most courses without shifting, and there's plenty of torque on tap for throttle steering. The track and an autox are probably the best places to really feel the goodness of the car.

JST, if I can make the logistics work, you can borrow my car for the NCC autox event.

[nate]

blee's car has the original suspension and 82K miles on it, so wear is probably the culprit here, but especially compared to the E46, the E30 wallowed a bit over bumps.

Damn!

Origninal suspension? Gotta do something about that, buddy.

[clyde]

There's a lot of drama, and it's fun to drive, but while a long blast through the gears gives you a lot of aural satisfaction, it never really throws you back in your seat.

Not every car can make the driver impersonate a bobble head. ;)

At the same time, when the Civic Si with the body kit pulls up next to you and revs his engine, you don't have anything to dispatch him with.

Just make sure to position yourself properly near a light pole before engaging the Civic and you have nothing to worry about. :eeps:

[clyde]

The top-end pull in second gear is strong enough to get you through the most courses without shifting, and there's plenty of torque on tap for throttle steering.

The second gear top end isn't going ot help you coming out of slow tight turns.

Still, fully STX prepped, the E30 M3 should be very competitive on most courses.

[JST]

Although most people say that the car is made for track time (and yes, it does absolutely shine there, passing cars that it isn't supposed to), it's great fun at an autocross. The top-end pull in second gear is strong enough to get you through the most courses without shifting, and there's plenty of torque on tap for throttle steering. The track and an autox are probably the best places to really feel the goodness of the car.

JST, if I can make the logistics work, you can borrow my car for the NCC autox event.

Thanks, but it looks like I'm going to miss the first NCC event b/c of business travel.

[bren]

I think I need to revisit the Mazda and make my final decision, but only after thrashing my M3 immediately beforehand.
It looks like you need to go to the Rev-It-Up event

http://members.roadfly.com/bmwm3coupe/DSCN0056.jpg

http://members.roadfly.com/bmwm3coupe/DSCN0064.jpg

[FC]

I think I need to revisit the Mazda and make my final decision, but only after thrashing my M3 immediately beforehand.
It looks like you need to go to the Rev-It-Up event



I was thinking the same thing after a saw a commercial last night during the F1 race.

[lemming]

i've lost track, but is this the 2.3 engine or the full on 2.5litre (???) conversion? i forget. there's a "small" one and "big" one.

the e30m3 can keep up with almost anything in the curves, but it's on the longer straights where you feel that it's a period type of car.

i've never had the pleasure of owning an e30m3, but a decent friend and driving instructor does so i've been around it a lot at the track. it's very stable and forgiving in a way that the e36m3 almost is (still has some snap oversteer if you're a nitwit).

i've been spoiled by the high bar of current cars because there is not a lot of flex in the chassis of a modern car (the e30 has some serious flex) and the newer engines with the same displacement find different ways to arrive at more power. but there's flat out more power.

nick: you need to go ahead and get RWD ASAP.

JeSTer: imagine having the 1.8t in the e30m3.

blee: have you come any closer to deciding between the golf v. mazda?

[JST]

nick: you need to go ahead and get RWD ASAP.

JST: imagine having the 1.8t in the e30m3.

blee: have you come any closer to deciding between the golf v. mazda?

Uh oh. Don't let blee hear you suggest such sacrilege.

But, yeah. The 225 hp 1.8T from the Audi TT would be a neat engine in that car.

Nick--At the next tech session, we'll just pull the front halfshafts off of your car.

[lemming]

nick: you need to go ahead and get RWD ASAP.

JST: imagine having the 1.8t in the e30m3.

blee: have you come any closer to deciding between the golf v. mazda?

Uh oh. Don't let blee hear you suggest such sacrilege.

But, yeah. The 225 hp 1.8T from the Audi TT would be a neat engine in that car.

Nick--At the next tech session, we'll just pull the front halfshafts off of your car.

i'm not down on the car at all. i mean, given that it's 16 years old, it demonstrates how remarkably well BMW formerly knew how to get the right handling in a lightweight package. and it's a testament to how good the car is that it is still competitive at auto-x and even at the track (in the right mix of cars).

[Nick M3]

nick: you need to go ahead and get RWD ASAP.

JST: imagine having the 1.8t in the e30m3.

blee: have you come any closer to deciding between the golf v. mazda?

Uh oh. Don't let blee hear you suggest such sacrilege.

But, yeah. The 225 hp 1.8T from the Audi TT would be a neat engine in that car.

Nick--At the next tech session, we'll just pull the front halfshafts off of your car.

I think we'd need a supercharger and a limited slip diff, too.




Hmmm....

[FC]

nick: you need to go ahead and get RWD ASAP.

JST: imagine having the 1.8t in the e30m3.

blee: have you come any closer to deciding between the golf v. mazda?

Uh oh. Don't let blee hear you suggest such sacrilege.

But, yeah. The 225 hp 1.8T from the Audi TT would be a neat engine in that car.

Nick--At the next tech session, we'll just pull the front halfshafts off of your car.

I think we'd need a supercharger and a limited slip diff, too.




Hmmm....

Anything is possible... for a nominal fee.

[blee]

A what in a what now?! A freaking Volkswagen engine in an E30 M3? Geeze. :mad:

The engine is the standard 2.3L variant, which is the only version shipped stateside. When I took the engine out, I decided against boring and stroking it in the interest of keeping the car as original as possible. I think I've done a good job of balancing historical preservation with performance; the only mods I've done are essentially bolt-ons, and I have the original parts where reasonable. The only truly questionable mod is the exhaust, and only because it is rather loud inside.

As for the suspension: Yes, it is original. Surprisingly, the ride is not all that far off of cars with fewer miles or fresher parts. The car could certainly use some replacement bushings and a set of replacement shocks, but they're not absolutely necessary just yet. I've seen some M3s with twice my mileage and they're still running strong on original suspension.

As for the Mazda vs. GTI debate....hrm. I've gotten Kim to relent on the wagon requirement, but not on the four-door requirement. And I've also "won" on the used vs. new debate. So actually, right now I'm doing some research on the E36 328i. :eek:

If I had to buy a new car today, I think I'd drive the Mazda3 one more time and decide. Today I'd probably get the Mazda, but two days ago I would have easily bought the GTI. They have complentary puses and minuses, to the point that either car would make me happy but for entirely different reasons.

[JST]

And I've also "won" on the used vs. new debate. So actually, right now I'm doing some research on the E36 328i.
.

You saw the one for sale at AutoAdvantage?

Hmm.

Where to find a 4 door E36 for sale in the DC area. Where to find...


Maybe TD will cut you a price break if you trade him the E30.




As for engines--I wonder if the Scooby flat four would fit. Mmm. 300 hp. Even if it wouldn't, I bet the Evo 8 engine would.

[Nick M3]

And I've also "won" on the used vs. new debate. So actually, right now I'm doing some research on the E36 328i.
.

You saw the one for sale at AutoAdvantage?

Hmm.

Where to find a 4 door E36 for sale in the DC area. Where to find...


Maybe TD will cut you a price break if you trade him the E30.




As for engines--I wonder if the Scooby flat four would fit. Mmm. 300 hp. Even if it wouldn't, I bet the Evo 8 engine would.

If you can fit an M5 engine in the E30 M3, I'd imagine that the STi engine would fit. :p

[blee]

Listen, you fockers. Any car whose VIN starts with WBSAK03 would be better served in a demolition derby than have something other than the S14 in it. That's just the way it is. If I had the wherewithal, I would hunt down all of these poor bastard cars and return them to their intended state.

As for TD's car...while it's a great vehicle, there's no way I could get into it. My price is more like, oh, ten grand below his asking price. And actually, I'm even thinking about a 325i. The similarities between that engine and the US M3 engine lead me to believe that there are some interesting parts bin modding possibilities. Of course, I will be able to afford little of it...but the potential is there. :P

[TD]

And while I don't expect to get my full asking price, I just won't sell it if I can't get within a couple grand of it. If that's still higher than "market" then I'm keeping it. 100K mile copies are still $18-19K. If I could only get, say, $21K for mine, then I might as well keep it another 40K miles.

[JST]

Listen, you fockers. Any car whose VIN starts with WBSAK03 would be better served in a demolition derby than have something other than the S14 in it. That's just the way it is. If I had the wherewithal, I would hunt down all of these poor bastard cars and return them to their intended state.



I hear you. So what you're saying is that this is what should go inside:

http://www.carcraft.com/carcraft/howto/p5148_image_large.jpg

[JST]

And while I don't expect to get my full asking price, I just won't sell it if I can't get within a couple grand of it. If that's still higher than "market" then I'm keeping it. 100K mile copies are still $18-19K. If I could only get, say, $21K for mine, then I might as well keep it another 40K miles.

In 40K miles, how much will you spend on maintenance? $2K?

[blee]

Listen, you fockers. Any car whose VIN starts with WBSAK03 would be better served in a demolition derby than have something other than the S14 in it. That's just the way it is. If I had the wherewithal, I would hunt down all of these poor bastard cars and return them to their intended state.



I hear you. So what you're saying is that this is what should go inside:

http://www.carcraft.com/carcraft/howto/p5148_image_large.jpg

Congratulations. You have found what space is left under my skin and burrowed deep inside. :twisted:

[clyde]

And while I don't expect to get my full asking price, I just won't sell it if I can't get within a couple grand of it. If that's still higher than "market" then I'm keeping it. 100K mile copies are still $18-19K. If I could only get, say, $21K for mine, then I might as well keep it another 40K miles.

Had any offers yet?

[ZHPhil]

Congratulations. You have found what space is left under my skin and burrowed deep inside. :twisted:

:lol: :lol:

[blee]

Curiouser and curiouser...

I think one of the final choices may also be an SVT Focus. Will this be the car to kick my anti-Ford habit for good? I'll be testing driving one tonight.

[Nick M3]

I thought you needed a reliable car?

[JST]

Curiouser and curiouser...

I think one of the final choices may also be an SVT Focus. Will this be the car to kick my anti-Ford habit for good? I'll be testing driving one tonight.

Didn't I suggest this some time ago?

The SVT Focus handles, in the words of Rgal, like a wet dream. Except less moist.

Actually, it handles very, very well. And I think it's a really nice looking car, too. The engine, though, just doesn't have a lot of kick--the 2.3 in the Mazda 3 feels a lot stronger. The Mazda handles nearly as well, and has a bit nicer interior.

On balance, you may find that the 3 (which is, after all, a 2nd gen Focus) is a better choice.

Also, ignore Nick. Focii, since their initial teething problems, have been very reliable.

[clyde]

Curiouser and curiouser...

I think one of the final choices may also be an SVT Focus. Will this be the car to kick my anti-Ford habit for good? I'll be testing driving one tonight.

Didn't I suggest this some time ago?

I thought you had, but someone had to "remind" him of the SVT Focus this afternoon. :paranoid:

Wouldn't that be something, though, if two people bought cars based on your suggestions? :lol:

[lemming]

yeah. i wonder now about the new 3 versus the SVT focus.

again the issue is of plummeting resale at the end of the lifespan of the car in your hands as SVT is going "upcountry" and getting out of the "cheap" car market. i guess they're going up in price to make fatter margins and are targetting only the "nice, fancy" cars.

i'd put some money with witnesses that the new 3 is on par or better than the SVT in terms of handling.

takers?

[blee]

Curiouser and curiouser...

I think one of the final choices may also be an SVT Focus. Will this be the car to kick my anti-Ford habit for good? I'll be testing driving one tonight.

Didn't I suggest this some time ago?

The SVT Focus handles, in the words of Rgal, like a wet dream. Except less moist.

Actually, it handles very, very well. And I think it's a really nice looking car, too. The engine, though, just doesn't have a lot of kick--the 2.3 in the Mazda 3 feels a lot stronger. The Mazda handles nearly as well, and has a bit nicer interior.

On balance, you may find that the 3 (which is, after all, a 2nd gen Focus) is a better choice.

Also, ignore Nick. Focii, since their initial teething problems, have been very reliable.

Well, Kim thinks that it's ugly. In her words: "Well, I wouldn't have to claw my eyes out with a fork every day, but..." I'll take that as a reserved tacit stamp of non-disproval as far as the styling goes. I happen to like it. :dunno:

I didn't get to drive the SVT, dammit. The ones they had today were either sold or sent to another branch of the dealership. Three are coming in "any day now." I did, however, ask to crawl around a ZX3 "tester" car they had right on the lot, and the salesman asked if I wanted to take it out for a drive.

Eh. Why not.

My driving impressions are obviously totally invalid. This was a base, base, BASE model, complete with manual window cranks and non-tilt, non-telesoping wheel. The engine was actually surprisingly peppy, but that's neither here nor there. I did learn a few things, though:

1- Cargo space is excellent.
2- Rear seat space is ample, on par with the Mazda. In fact, it reminded me quite a bit of the rear seat in the Mazda. (Coincidence? :lol:)
3- Headroom and interior space in general is excellent.

The handling on this particular car was not confidence inspiring. The body had plenty of lean and lane-change maneuvers were not very immediate. BUt like I said, this was the ZX3.

I plan to go back once an SVT is back on the lot. It's still on my short list.

I am most curious about the engine characteristics at high RPM. With either the Focus or the Mazda3, low-end torque is not really a question because there just isn't a ton of it; enough to be interesting, but not anything to impress a guy who likes V8s. I want to take one up to redline and play with the gears there to see how it pulls. I want to do the same thing to the Mazda, then make a decision.

To tell you the truth, my anti-Fordism is starting to fade already. The ZX3 that I drove was essentially the cheapest Ford available in this country, and it was not disappointing. Try doing the same in an Aveo.

[JST]

yeah. i wonder now about the new 3 versus the SVT focus.

again the issue is of plummeting resale at the end of the lifespan of the car in your hands as SVT is going "upcountry" and getting out of the "cheap" car market. i guess they're going up in price to make fatter margins and are targetting only the "nice, fancy" cars.

i'd put some money with witnesses that the new 3 is on par or better than the SVT in terms of handling.

takers?

No. I'd agree. While I've driven both, it was separated in time by about two years, so I can't really give you a back to back comparo. But the Mazda feels quite dialed in, and when you combine Mazda's expertise in tuning (they know how to build cars that handle) with Ford and Richard Parry-Jones expertise in same, you get a nice package. And, of course, the 3 is a generation newer than the Focus.

In any event, I'm certain that any handling advantage that the Focus DID have would be down to things like spring rates, shocks, and roll bars, which are all very easy to change.

The 2.0 Duratec is just not a terrific engine, and it never really was. The SVT derivation, with variable valve timing, is a *little* better, but that car is mainly about the exhaust note. It's a pity, because the rest of the car is so well done. Makes one yearn for the RS.

The Mazda 2.3 is an entirely better engine.

[lemming]

yeah.

there are a few things.

i think that the 2.3 litre 160hp mazda 3 engine is "close enough" to the output of the SVT engine (170hp) but it has displacement on its side (does it have VVT? i would guess yeah, but not sure).

the mazda 3 out of the box probably handles like the SVT and i think it's because their niche in the market is not to be the flat out fastest car, but the best handling cars around.

my opinion is that from the 3 to the 6 to the rx8 that it's the nicest handling lineup that there is for the money. [otherwise BMW takes it]

however, it being an SVT and on its last legs, it may come with much better standard equipment? better tires? more aluminum suspenion parts? better radio? dunno. just a guess. plus ford incentives are likely to be better?

i've driven both and the 3 is really what i like still.

[blee]

Well, Ford has something like $2500 in rebate cash right now. Good for a couple of months. I think there is a zero-percent program coming soon as well. That incentive, when added to X-Plan pricing, makes the SVTF a bit cheaper than the Mazda with similar options. Not a huge price difference, though.

Need to go find one to drive.

[blee]

Oh, and the Mazda engine does have some form of VVT. Not sure if it's on both cams or not; on the SVT, it's only on the intake cam.