EV future

[lemming]

There’s a lot of news about this at NAIAS 2019. And they’re coming.

But how does it work in the middle of the country?

In NYC? In Boston?

Or SF or LA?

All of these people living on top of each other. How will the grid setup charging for all of the EVs, if the EVs takeover completely for gas?

At a gas station you only need 4-8 stations because each filling is 5-10 minutes.

How does this work if each car needs 30-60min?

Just thinking out loud. I can’t see how this works in my mind right now.

[FC]

There’s a lot of news about this at NAIAS 2019. And they’re coming.

But how does it work in the middle of the country?

In NYC? In Boston?

Or SF or LA?

All of these people living on top of each other. How will the grid setup charging for all of the EVs, if the EVs takeover completely for gas?

At a gas station you only need 4-8 stations because each filling is 5-10 minutes.

How does this work if each car needs 30-60min?

Just thinking out loud. I can’t see how this works in my mind right now.

Well, if people could fill up at home, gas stations would be a lot emptier. I think private garages will need to have chargers installed.

Not saying there isn't a point there, though. I think times will inevitably have to come down over time. Porsche just showed some crazy-fast charge time technology (I know no details).

[lemming]

Well, if people could fill up at home, gas stations would be a lot emptier. I think private garages will need to have chargers installed.



Not saying there isn't a point there, though. I think times will inevitably have to come down over time. Porsche just showed some crazy-fast charge time technology (I know no details).



The people missing out are the ones who are urban and park on the street.

We would need chargers as frequent as parking meters, right?

I don’t know how it is on the progressive west coast but it worries me to think how the grid will adapt to an avalanche of Level 3 or higher cars needing to charge.

[clyde]

Well, if people could fill up at home, gas stations would be a lot emptier. I think private garages will need to have chargers installed.

Not saying there isn't a point there, though. I think times will inevitably have to come down over time. Porsche just showed some crazy-fast charge time technology (I know no details).

The people missing out are the ones who are urban and park on the street.

We would need chargers as frequent as parking meters, right?

I don’t know how it is on the progressive west coast but it worries me to think how the grid will adapt to an avalanche of Level 3 or higher cars needing to charge.

Glad to see someone else here gets this is an issue.

http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showpost.php?p=538633&postcount=2200

plus the next few posts

[rumatt]

The people missing out are the ones who are urban and park on the street.

And they will continue to buy the remaining ICE vehicles until society figures out a solution for them. :dunno:

I will say this - the only time I have a problem with range is when I drive to the city and want to stay a few days. My car is parked outside right now losing 8% charge per night because it's 13 degrees outside.

In the mean time, Tesla will continue to dominate because Elon had the foresight to build a network of super-fast chargers across the whole damn country. I still find this to be incredible. More impressive than the fact that he's building some pretty decent cars.

I do find it kind of shitty that it's a proprietary network. But at the same time, I don't think we should block people from doing what he did. The remaining manufactures need to get off their asses and build something better... and hopefully open.

[clyde]

Why am I writing this? I don’t know. Probably because after three weeks of furlough, I have nothing better to do than argue on the Internet. Probably.

According to the 2017 American Housing Survey (via US Census (https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/ahs/data/interactive/ahstablecreator.html#?s_areas=a00000&s_year=n2017&s_tableName=Table1&s_byGroup1=a1&s_byGroup2=a1&s_filterGroup1=t1&s_filterGroup2=g1&s_show=S)) there are 121 million US households

According to the 2015 AHS (via US Dept of Energy (https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017-sixty-three-percent-all-housing-units-have-garage-or-carport)):

63% of US households have a garage or carport
37% of renters have a garage or carport
70% of recent housing construction (2009-2014?) had garages

According to the 1997 AHS (old, but the stats probably haven’t changed much…Im too lazy to find latest version (via US Census (https://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/ahb-9901.pdf))
76% of detached SFH have covered parking
46% of attached (duplexes, rowhouses, townhouses have covered parking
26% of multi-unit housing have covered parking
Up to 25% of housing without covered parking has no dedicated off street parking (not written clearly enough to decipher the splits of several housing types)
7.8 million households rely on street parking
40% of those without covered or offstreet parking report having 0 vehicles

University of Michigan study (http://www.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-4.pdf) says there are an average of about 2 cars per household.


According to a garage organization and storage system manufacturer (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/almost-1-in-4-americans-say-their-garage-is-too-cluttered-to-fit-their-car-300096246.html)25% of Americans say their garages are so filled with junk, they can’t even put a car in them.

I'm sure there's more detailed data out there, but not sure where to find it and my interest is waning at this point in the post, but I'd imagine other factors impact the final picture of how many homes can support 1 (or 2?) EVs with daily charging today. Things ranging from a homeowner's willingness to be inconvenienced by having the wiring set up in their home (see rumatt's experience), people being able to fit their cars in their garages, to condo boards willingness to make investments (see the example of my brother's place in the other thread), to apartment complex ownership groups willingness to do the same for thousands of parking lot spaces at a time.

It all paints a picture for me that EVs are going to need a fast charging equivalent to gas stations to hit the tipping point. My conclusion is that an industry standard (whether jointly agreed by the industry or imposed by government) would make it happen a lot sooner and provide greater benefits to all (consumers, manufacturers, government, etc).

Maybe some kind of solar changing can be made to happen. Or cheap to install induction charging in lots, roads, and such, but that doesn't help current EV early adopters that are cutting the path for everyone else to follow.

[lemming]

Why am I writing this? I don’t know. Probably because after three weeks of furlough, I have nothing better to do than argue on the Internet. Probably.



According to the 2017 American Housing Survey (via US Census (https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/ahs/data/interactive/ahstablecreator.html#?s_areas=a00000&s_year=n2017&s_tableName=Table1&s_byGroup1=a1&s_byGroup2=a1&s_filterGroup1=t1&s_filterGroup2=g1&s_show=S)) there are 121 million US households



According to the 2015 AHS (via US Dept of Energy (https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017-sixty-three-percent-all-housing-units-have-garage-or-carport)):



63% of US households have a garage or carport

37% of renters have a garage or carport

70% of recent housing construction (2009-2014?) had garages




According to the 1997 AHS (old, but the stats probably haven’t changed much…Im too lazy to find latest version (via US Census (https://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/ahb-9901.pdf))

76% of detached SFH have covered parking

46% of attached (duplexes, rowhouses, townhouses have covered parking

26% of multi-unit housing have covered parking

Up to 25% of housing without covered parking has no dedicated off street parking (not written clearly enough to decipher the splits of several housing types)

7.8 million households rely on street parking

40% of those without covered or offstreet parking report having 0 vehicles




University of Michigan study (http://www.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-4.pdf) says there are an average of about 2 cars per household.





According to a garage organization and storage system manufacturer (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/almost-1-in-4-americans-say-their-garage-is-too-cluttered-to-fit-their-car-300096246.html)25% of Americans say their garages are so filled with junk, they can’t even put a car in them.



I'm sure there's more detailed data out there, but not sure where to find it and my interest is waning at this point in the post, but I'd imagine other factors impact the final picture of how many homes can support 1 (or 2?) EVs with daily charging today. Things ranging from a homeowner's willingness to be inconvenienced by having the wiring set up in their home (see rumatt's experience), people being able to fit their cars in their garages, to condo boards willingness to make investments (see the example of my brother's place in the other thread), to apartment complex ownership groups willingness to do the same for thousands of parking lot spaces at a time.



It all paints a picture for me that EVs are going to need a fast charging equivalent to gas stations to hit the tipping point. My conclusion is that an industry standard (whether jointly agreed by the industry or imposed by government) would make it happen a lot sooner and provide greater benefits to all (consumers, manufacturers, government, etc).



Maybe some kind of solar changing can be made to happen. Or cheap to install induction charging in lots, roads, and such, but that doesn't help current EV early adopters that are cutting the path for everyone else to follow.



Thanks, Clyde! I didn’t pull the figures. But that’s the bottom line. Not everyone lives in a house. And even then it’s dicey whether or not they spring for L2/3 charging.

And then— imagine the network needed when we electrify 18 wheelers......

[Alan]

https://www.curbed.com/2017/6/22/15855130/ubitricity-electric-car-charging-lamp-posts

[wdc330i]

I think we're missing the point here that a large percentage of urban/multifamily dwellers will abandon personal car ownership in favor of driverless car share access. This will ease some of the burden of charger load.

[JST]

The thing is, picture yourself 120 years ago arguing against the widespread adoption of petroleum. You'd say:

--Are we really going to build thousands and thousands of underground tanks, all across the country?

--How are we going to ship the fuel there? Where are we going to refine it? Aren't we going to need train cars and trucks and a huge amount of infrastructure to deliver it?

--Won't people object to having these things on every street corner?

--Won't people object to the inconvenience of having to make a separate stop for fuel? Or a whole separate trip?



Moving to EVs is going to require a sea change in the way that we think about using cars and building infrastructure, but it's only hard to imagine because we haven't done it yet. The actual work necessary to build that infrastructure out is time-consuming and expensive, but it's fairly straight-forward. All it requires is a commitment to do it.

[ZBB]

This is a good place to have the discussion -- considering that there are 5 of us who have an EV (with a couple of us on our 2nd or 3rd one…)

- Most charging will be at home. In my case, ~90% of my EV mileage has been charged at home. Nearly all the remaining was during road trips, and nearly all of that on L3 chargers. I charge occasionally at freebie chargers around town, but that easily could have been at home. I've only had to pay for charging once after forgetting to charge one night and not having enough juice to make it home (so I hit a paid L3 charger on my way home).

- For most people, 150 mile range will be sufficient for commuter and weekend needs. Just charge back up overnight. But it looks like all the recent announcements are for minimum range of ~250 miles. That's great.

City dwellers will be the hardest group to provide coverage -- but some thoughts:
- Many of them already don't own cars and just rent if they need one. Car sharing and ride sharing works well for them. I work with some people that no longer have a car and just take Uber/Lyft when they need a ride (and they walk to work).

- Some cities are already putting charging in on the street -- just like parking meters. These are all over Paris for example. There's even an EV-only car sharing service in Paris that parks that cars on the street at dedicated chargers.

- Its not a surprise that the European automakers are focused on 800V L3 DC, putting out 400kW. Once the batteries can take the full power of these chargers, it means doing an 80% charge in <10 min. That's 3-4x faster than Tesla's current Superchargers.

- Tesla has been putting in "Urban Superchargers" over the last 18 months. These are a bit slower (72kW max), but are not shared -- so you get the max avail from the start (the traditional 120kW Superchargers have 2 outlets share each charging stack -- so the first car to arrive gets max power, and the 2nd car gets the remainder, min 10kW and ramps up as the other ramps down).

- As for the grid requirements of L3 charging, many L3 sites have battery packs to pull juice off the grid evenly, but discharge the batteries faster when needed. Tesla has many superchargers with this, and there are reports of other L3 sites that already do this. VAG was in the news recently with a "mobile" L3 charger that includes a battery pack and the charger -- it could be put on site and used immediately with no grid connection (at least until the battery drains…)

[lemming]

This is a good place to have the discussion -- considering that there are 5 of us who have an EV (with a couple of us on our 2nd or 3rd one…)

- Most charging will be at home. In my case, ~90% of my EV mileage has been charged at home. Nearly all the remaining was during road trips, and nearly all of that on L3 chargers. I charge occasionally at freebie chargers around town, but that easily could have been at home. I've only had to pay for charging once after forgetting to charge one night and not having enough juice to make it home (so I hit a paid L3 charger on my way home).

- For most people, 150 mile range will be sufficient for commuter and weekend needs. Just charge back up overnight. But it looks like all the recent announcements are for minimum range of ~250 miles. That's great.

City dwellers will be the hardest group to provide coverage -- but some thoughts:
- Many of them already don't own cars and just rent if they need one. Car sharing and ride sharing works well for them. I work with some people that no longer have a car and just take Uber/Lyft when they need a ride (and they walk to work).

- Some cities are already putting charging in on the street -- just like parking meters. These are all over Paris for example. There's even an EV-only car sharing service in Paris that parks that cars on the street at dedicated chargers.

- Its not a surprise that the European automakers are focused on 800V L3 DC, putting out 400kW. Once the batteries can take the full power of these chargers, it means doing an 80% charge in <10 min. That's 3-4x faster than Tesla's current Superchargers.

- Tesla has been putting in "Urban Superchargers" over the last 18 months. These are a bit slower (72kW max), but are not shared -- so you get the max avail from the start (the traditional 120kW Superchargers have 2 outlets share each charging stack -- so the first car to arrive gets max power, and the 2nd car gets the remainder, min 10kW and ramps up as the other ramps down).

- As for the grid requirements of L3 charging, many L3 sites have battery packs to pull juice off the grid evenly, but discharge the batteries faster when needed. Tesla has many superchargers with this, and there are reports of other L3 sites that already do this. VAG was in the news recently with a "mobile" L3 charger that includes a battery pack and the charger -- it could be put on site and used immediately with no grid connection (at least until the battery drains…)



Factually, all of this is intuitive. I was just trying to picture this as I was walking in Manhattan.

You’d need to tax the hell out of cars to also reduce the sheer numbers. Hope for autonomous to fill some of that.

Can the grid in old cities on the east coast handle these needs?

[ff]

And they will continue to buy the remaining ICE vehicles until society figures out a solution for them. :dunno:

I don't think we're very far off from widespread, fully autonomous ride-hailing services (10-20 years?), which will signal the downhill slide of private ownership. Until then, like you say, people that can't set up charging stations at home will buy up the remaining ICE vehicles and make them last. People in urban areas [north of the Florida border] can also fall back to mass transit and ride-sharing services.

ICE cars won't go away overnight, but I think we'll look back at some point and be impressed with how quickly (relatively) the switch happened.

[rumatt]

ICE cars won't go away overnight, but I think we'll look back at some point and be impressed with how quickly (relatively) the switch happened.
I don't know... I think they'll be a quick surge, but they'll be a good percentage that stick around for a very long time.

[ZBB]

I don't know... I think they'll be a quick surge, but they'll be a good percentage that stick around for a very long time.

Depends. I’ve started seeing news articles about converting classics to electric... one of those was in the mainstream press, not something like CleanTechnica...

[lemming]

I don't know... I think they'll be a quick surge, but they'll be a good percentage that stick around for a very long time.



Don’t misread me. I’m getting a 300mi EV sometime soon. I won’t give up any ICE vehicles though.

I was just wondering how we think this evolves.

I just wonder how EVs reach people who live in urban areas. It will be fun to see. But in Boston or Manhattan I’m just not seeing it.

[GregE_325]

I've been able to have several meetings with representatives from Mercedes USA due to my work with electric utility companies. The topic of the meetings was that they are considering several "innovative" ideas as part of their new electric vehicle rollout.

One idea that struck me was along the lines of individual homeowners making their chargers available for use by others. So for a fee, a person could stop at someones house, front yard, etc. and give their car a charge from a privately owned charger.

This of course means that the chargers would have to be externally accessible. But is sounded like an idea that Mercedes was considering as part of their overall EQ vehicle deployment over the next 5-10 years. Maybe they would be Mercedes branded chargers, it wasn't clear. But it seems like companies are seriously considering many different alternatives to help push electric cars more into the mainstream and make charging more convenient.

When I built my house 2 years ago I had a vehicle charger installed inside my garage. I don't yet own an electric vehicle, but I figured that I would eventually and wanted to be prepared. So I guess Mercedes won't be able to leverage my charger with their grand schemes. But it's an intriguing idea, nevertheless.


- Greg

[ZBB]

Greg -
That idea is already in place... go check out PlugShare and you can filter to chargers that are shared.

I’ve never used one though... don’t even have them on in the filters on PlugShare...

[GregE_325]

Greg -
That idea is already in place... go check out PlugShare and you can filter to chargers that are shared.

I’ve never used one though... don’t even have them on in the filters on PlugShare...


That would be a handy thing to have. I live in a rural area, so there aren't many options near me besides a Tesla SuperCharger site about 20 miles up the highway. I just found it interesting that the auto manufacturers were thinking about mimicking Tesla's model of a network of chargers, but perhaps making them less proprietary. And if there's financial incentive for homeowners to share their chargers, maybe that helps the push for more EVs.

I'm probably not too far away from getting another spare car and it will be electric. I can charge for free at my office, and with the charger already installed in my garage, I should be ready to go. I'll admit that I already have the ChargePoint swipe card in my wallet ready to use at a charger, but I just don't have the car yet. Haha!

[clyde]

The thing is, picture yourself 120 years ago arguing against the widespread adoption of petroleum. You'd say:

--Are we really going to build thousands and thousands of underground tanks, all across the country?

--How are we going to ship the fuel there? Where are we going to refine it? Aren't we going to need train cars and trucks and a huge amount of infrastructure to deliver it?

--Won't people object to having these things on every street corner?

--Won't people object to the inconvenience of having to make a separate stop for fuel? Or a whole separate trip?



Moving to EVs is going to require a sea change in the way that we think about using cars and building infrastructure, but it's only hard to imagine because we haven't done it yet. The actual work necessary to build that infrastructure out is time-consuming and expensive, but it's fairly straight-forward. All it requires is a commitment to do it.

I don't think anyone here is arguing against the modern equivalent adoption of petroleum. I know I'm certainly not. If it was 1900 today, this is what I'd basically be saying is this:

1) The size of the petroleum powered vehicle market will be artificially capped at a fraction of its full potential size until the petroleum transport/delivery system is adequate.

2) Using the wealthy and lucky few that can
a) purchase a new petroleum powered vehicle;
b) purchase a portion of the petroleum delivery system themselves;
c) live in a rare, isolated location where petroleum delivery is possible before a full system exits; and
d) also own a horse and buggy, steam powered, or other self-sufficient transport for those times when a petroleum powered vehicle will not be an option
as a representative sample of the entire population set is ill-advised

3) That everyone (consumer, manufacturer, and government) would be best off if all manufacturers adopted standards for petroleum blends to power their vehicles and how to move petroleum from the delivery system into the vehicles.

I'm not saying don't do it.

(OTOH, if steam power beat out petroleum 120 years ago, perhaps the climate change crisis would not be upon us today.)

[rumatt]

So a good chunk of people are going to have to keep driving their perfectly capable luxury ICE vehicles for a few more years until charging solutions catch up with vehicle technology. And for some of these people it will be because they don't feel like cleaning out their garage.

Remind me why I'm supposed to get worked up over this?


PS The gap between horse and buggy and the first automobile is bigger than moving from an ice car to EV

[lemming]

So a good chunk of people are going to have to keep driving their perfectly capable luxury ICE vehicles for a few more years until charging solutions catch up with vehicle technology. And for some of these people it will be because they don't feel like cleaning out their garage.

Remind me why I'm supposed to get worked up over this?


PS The gap between horse and buggy and the first automobile is bigger than moving from an ice car to EV



Here’s a more practical question: where are you going to charge in Manhattan?

The suburban perspective is easy to consider.

Any situation where people live vertically, you have a space issue to charge cars. Even underground garaging. Even if you had a bank of 10 chargers you would swamp the system there with 20-25 EVs fighting to charge.

Petroleum is less good as a metaphor because fill-time here is so much longer.

[wdc330i]

What about common battery platforms and charged battery swaps? Kind of like propane tanks for grills?

[rumatt]

What about common battery platforms and charged battery swaps? Kind of like propane tanks for grills?
I like it, except the batteries are huge and heavy.

And they degrade over time, so you'd need a measure of "life left in the battery" before you swap. Like trading a new propane tank for a rusty, broken one.

[wdc330i]

Here you go, "Startup GBatteries claims it can charge an EV as fast as it takes to pump gas
They say their technology works with existing lithium batteries"

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/15/startup-gbatteries-ev-fast-charging/

[ZBB]

What about common battery platforms and charged battery swaps? Kind of like propane tanks for grills?

Tesla experimented with battery swaps — one station along I-5 in central CA. It basically didn’t get used. Swaps took <5 min, but people preferred the Supercharger at the same location.

There was also a company in Israel that did battery leasing and had swapping stations, but they failed. Info here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)

[Theo]

Tesla experimented with battery swaps — one station along I-5 in central CA. It basically didn’t get used. Swaps took <5 min, but people preferred the Supercharger at the same location.

There was also a company in Israel that did battery leasing and had swapping stations, but they failed. Info here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)

ZBB you reallllllllly should work for Tesla.

[lemming]

Tesla experimented with battery swaps — one station along I-5 in central CA. It basically didn’t get used. Swaps took <5 min, but people preferred the Supercharger at the same location.



There was also a company in Israel that did battery leasing and had swapping stations, but they failed. Info here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)



Let’s see how Porsche’s high amperage fast charging works.

How does this rate of charge do comparing to Tesla Supercharging?

[Alan]

Here’s a more practical question: where are you going to charge in Manhattan?



You bring up something very interesting and it made me think not about charging stations in Manhattan but more about gas stations ... in my 33+ years of driving and living in NY I don’t recall ever getting gas in the city ... I wouldn’t even know where there is a gas station if I needed gas (yeah I could ask Siri).

I did a quick google search and according to this link in 2016 there were only 32 gas stations in the city (the link is from 2017 but they reference a year ago)
https://consumerist.com/2017/07/19/there-are-only-32-retail-gas-stations-left-in-manhattan/


Anyway I would think garages would putin charging stations for their long term customers and it will be another source of income for them. It will make getting a fill up even easier then gas ... just my guess.

[ZBB]

You all really should go take a look at PlugShare to see where chargers are. There are several places to charge in Manhattan already...

[robg]

You bring up something very interesting and it made me think not about charging stations in Manhattan but more about gas stations ... in my 33+ years of driving and living in NY I don’t recall ever getting gas in the city ... I wouldn’t even know where there is a gas station if I needed gas (yeah I could ask Siri).

I did a quick google search and according to this link in 2016 there were only 32 gas stations in the city (the link is from 2017 but they reference a year ago)
https://consumerist.com/2017/07/19/there-are-only-32-retail-gas-stations-left-in-manhattan/


Anyway I would think garages would putin charging stations for their long term customers and it will be another source of income for them. It will make getting a fill up even easier then gas ... just my guess.

Good point. Even when i lived there (and had a car), I rarely got gas there. I think I can only remember 2 or 3 times.

[kognito]

You bring up something very interesting and it made me think not about charging stations in Manhattan but more about gas stations ... in my 33+ years of driving and living in NY I don’t recall ever getting gas in the city ... I wouldn’t even know where there is a gas station if I needed gas (yeah I could ask Siri).

I did a quick google search and according to this link in 2016 there were only 32 gas stations in the city (the link is from 2017 but they reference a year ago)
https://consumerist.com/2017/07/19/there-are-only-32-retail-gas-stations-left-in-manhattan/


Anyway I would think garages would putin charging stations for their long term customers and it will be another source of income for them. It will make getting a fill up even easier then gas ... just my guess.


Might be the one at the top of the list, but I remember getting gas ONCE at a station that was near the Lincoln Tunnel (going back to Jersey) It was very expensive, but it was my bad for going into the city without gassing up in NJ first. I only bought like 5-7 bucks, enough to get to the Hess station on RT 3

I do remember passing this station often, usually only taxi's got gas there cause it was so expensive.

[equ]

I used to gas up (not the whole tank due to prices) at the BP on Houston & Lafayette in the Village. Must be gone by now...

[robg]

I used to gas up (not the whole tank due to prices) at the BP on Houston & Lafayette in the Village. Must be gone by now...



I actually think it’s still there !

[Josh (PA)]

I still question whether battery EVs are the right thing for the future. I am hard pressed to believe that the full life cycle of an EV is cleaner than a comparable ICE vehicle. The mining and refining of precious metals like lithium, cadmium and nickel is incredibly nasty (but hey its done in 3rd world countries, so it doesn't count, right).

You could argue that power generation is cleaner than ICE pollution, but again it depends on the type and what other environmental impacts you want to consider ie: windmills on ridgelines chop up amazing amounts of migrant birds, hydro dams kill salmon, etc. Then you have nuclear, coal and older tech plants that have their own pollution issues.

You then have to take that energy that is relatively efficiently produced and lose x% of it transporting it from the plant to your house. Lose x++% more turning it from AC-> DC and stuffing it in a battery. Lose X% more due to battery loss during sitting, especially if it is cold and x% more when turned from potential to kinetic energy in the motor, heater, etc. The reality is not nearly as efficient as Tesla, or other EV companies would market us to think.

I think if we were to clean sheet an ICE vehicle we could do so much better than where we are today. The big problem with ICE is how inefficiently it operates. For instance, we give up a ton of energy in braking. If we were to develop hydraulic accumulator brakes we could store all that energy for reuse during acceleration. We could capture exhaust heat and use that for electric generation, eliminating the alternator and engine drag. The engine could be hooked to an energy storage system (hydraulic or electric) and run at max efficiency all the time. Then the engine could be significantly smaller, because reality is it is operating at 10% or less of it potential most of the time and the stored engine from braking and engine accumulation could be used during accel, etc when needed. Basically consolidate the energy use systems into one, and optimize them together. I think the biggest issue with ICE today isn't the gas it burns, its the inefficient ways it gives up energy when cruising, braking, cooling, etc.

Just my thoughts.

[JST]

I mean there’s a lot of work that’s been done analyzing this precise question. The answer is that at least from a carbon standpoint end to end EVs are far more efficient than ICE.

See, eg,

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions#.XENPL6ROnDs

[rumatt]

https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM


"So if you're driving a Tesla P100D in West Virginia you're not doing the environment any favors."

[clyde]

if you're driving...you're not doing the environment any favors

Unfortunately, this is the reality. Everything else is pretend.

[lemming]

Btw EVs suck in weather where it’s 2F and minus 15 with windchill.

*just a personal observation.

I hate it.

[rumatt]

My Tesla is parked until this cold spree is over. I'm bonding with the Colorado through this dark time.

[Plaz]

Might be the one at the top of the list, but I remember getting gas ONCE at a station that was near the Lincoln Tunnel (going back to Jersey) It was very expensive, but it was my bad for going into the city without gassing up in NJ first. I only bought like 5-7 bucks, enough to get to the Hess station on RT 3

I do remember passing this station often, usually only taxi's got gas there cause it was so expensive.

I'm guessing 37th and 10th

[JST]

My Tesla is parked until this cold spree is over. I'm bonding with the Colorado through this dark time.

The Model 3 does great in the cold and snow, actually. It's traction management is pretty superb, and it's nice to be able to warm it up before getting inside.

[rumatt]

Yeah the driving experience is great. But I think I push the battery range more than you do, and often leave it sitting out for longer duration. Cold sucks battery whole both driving and sitting.