View Full Version : Runflat bubble
My gf (she was driving the e90 today) just called to inform me of a bubble on one of the hateful runcraps.
What a pain as we were planning to go to Lake Placid tomorrow evening (new snowstorm). :mad:
Do I drop 2-300$ into buying another one of these tires that I hate?
But what do I replace them with? I'm not ready to spring for a tire & wheel package on a car that I'm not yet fully committed to. Actually there are basically no e90 winter packages available because of its retarded offsets not working with e46 or other previous cars. Winter is almost over anyway...
I guess I could buy a set of snows and dump the pitiful turanzas... Either way, I don't have time to have the tires mailed. Damn, what luck. :irate:
Oh yeah, I don't have a spare yet either... My plan was to wait for March and buy either a set of wheels & tires or just tires on current stock wheels.
My gf (she was driving the e90 today) just called to inform me of a bubble on one of the hateful runcraps.
What a pain as we were planning to go to Lake Placid tomorrow evening (new snowstorm). :mad:
Do I drop 2-300$ into buying another one of these tires that I hate?
But what do I replace them with? I'm not ready to spring for a tire & wheel package on a car that I'm not yet fully committed to. Actually there are basically no e90 winter packages available because of its retarded offsets not working with e46 or other previous cars. Winter is almost over anyway...
I guess I could buy a set of snows and dump the pitiful turanzas... Either way, I don't have time to have the tires mailed. Damn, what luck. :irate:
Buy a set of decent snows (like Dunlop WinterSports, which I am very happy with). Put them on the wheels that you've got. If you keep the car, you can buy a used set of SP wheels (or do what I did and get a set of E46 M3 wheels + a 12 mm spacer for the front wheels) and use those for your summer tires. If you don't decide to keep the car, sell it before winter is over.
Buy a set of decent snows (like Dunlop WinterSports, which I am very happy with). Put them on the wheels that you've got. If you keep the car, you can buy a used set of SP wheels (or do what I did and get a set of E46 M3 wheels + a 12 mm spacer for the front wheels) and use those for your summer tires. If you don't decide to keep the car, sell it before winter is over.
The stock runcrap is $222 at TR (and this is no Z rated sports tire and in 225/45-17). I'm guessing a $350 repair at the dealer. I'm going to do sth like what you suggested. However, I'm really annoyed with bmw making life so difficult for people.
The stock runcrap is $222 at TR (and this is no Z rated sports tire and in 225/45-17). I'm guessing a $350 repair at the dealer. I'm going to do sth like what you suggested. However, I'm really annoyed with bmw making life so difficult for people.
Yes, of is annoying. My RFT rear tire was 375, IIRC. The worst thing though is that since you don't have a spare wheel, you can't just leave the flat-- you have to leave the whole car.
My gf met some of her friends this eve in NNJ and one of them has a spouse that works for BMWNA here. The rumour is that bmw might take "more action" about runflats. MCS under consideration for RFT's as well? :dunno:
Third hand so clearly it's like a game of telephone...
My gf met some of her friends this eve in NNJ and one of them has a spouse that works for BMWNA here. The rumour is that bmw might take "more action" about runflats. MCS under consideration for RFT's as well? :dunno:
Third hand so clearly it's like a game of telephone...
The MCS already has runflats.
The MCS already has runflats.
I know. The rumour is that it may be dumped.
I know. The rumour is that it may be dumped.
Oh.
Frankly, having had both an E46 M3 (which came without a spare and without runflats) and an E90 (which came without a spare and with runflats), if BMW is going to build cars without spare tires, they should put runflats on them--but what they should REALLY do is just build fricking cars without runflats and with spare tires.
There's no reason you couldn't put smaller mufflers on the E90 and make room for a spare wheel. The same is true of the Mini--the only reason that the Cooper S can't have a spare wheel is that the goofy center mounted exhaust is in the way.
What's completely ridiculous, though, is that there are some BMWs that come with both runflats AND a spare tire. And not just 5ers that were designed before RFTs spread across the BMW range--the new X6 has both.
If you drive around NNJ/NYC on RFT's, you'll be crying for non-runflats, spare or not. It's just not working. (The 'xi' & the turanza are worse, I don't think you feel the full brunt of the bad ride on i & 050's.).
Perhaps, the X6 is an indication that they're leaving room for spares in future designs. We can only hope.
clyde
02-08-2008, 09:47 AM
How much does a can of fix-a-flat and a cheap ass compressor weigh? Maybe 4 pounds?
How much does a donut spare, jack, and "breaker" bar weigh? 50 pounds?
What's the cost difference between the two possibilities for the manufacturer? Maybe $100?
I'd think that jettisoning the weight of a spare and tire changing hardware will be very attractive to manufacturers as the CAFE requirements rise as it's 1) simple and 2) helpful to their bottom line as they're unlikley to pass the savings along to the consumer.
Of course, if they get rid of spares wholesale, maybe they become dealer installed options? Would that count against them as far as CAFE is concerned? Does it become an additional profit for both manufacturer and dealer?
Well, in 90% of the developed world this will work.. If you see the urban decay we drive in here in NYC & environs, forget it. Friends have pulled out 4" nails out of their SUV tires, I've sliced 55 profile audi tires as if they were paper on potholes.
It's interesting that modern porsches have spares in two countries (one is Guatemala the other is someplace in the mideast, perhaps S. Arabia) that require cars to have spares. This city is just as third world if not worse...
clyde
02-08-2008, 10:01 AM
So you knew these risks yet opted not to do anything about it anyway.
Of course, if they get rid of spares wholesale, maybe they become dealer installed options? Would that count against them as far as CAFE is concerned? Does it become an additional profit for both manufacturer and dealer?
Some are already doing that, or moving to factory options; the Cadillac CTS seems to have that setup, at least according to the Build your Own thing at the website. The RX-8 was basically the same thing.
My objection is mostly to getting rid of the area where the spare would go. I don't mind buying my own spare, but I do mind having it take up 20 percent (or, in the case of the Mini, 100 percent) of my luggage space.
So you knew these risks yet opted not to do anything about it anyway.
Ah, no I'm still on RFT's. And I just got the car... There is nothing wrong in what I did or didn't do. I'm just pointing out the weakness in your no spares argument. I don't think no-spares is the future necessarily.
clyde
02-08-2008, 10:57 AM
Some are already doing that, or moving to factory options;
One of my questions is whether there is a CAFE implication between dealer and factory. My guess is that there's a strong possibility that there is although it would probably be near invisible to the consumer.
clyde
02-08-2008, 11:11 AM
Ah, no I'm still on RFT's. And I just got the car... There is nothing wrong in what I did or didn't do. I'm just pointing out the weakness in your no spares argument. I don't think no-spares is the future necessarily.
I don't care how long you've had the car. You foresaw the likely potential of porking a tire, you knew the car didn't have a spare, conciosuly decided to do nothing to protect yourself, and then after a tire was porked you complained about BMW making your life difficult. :rolleyes: Boo fucking hoo.
Manufacturers don't care whether you're driving in NYC or somewhere with a longer tire life expentancy and all of their motivations push them away from including spares. Their days of being included as OE equipment are likely numbered at best.
Sharp11
02-08-2008, 11:18 AM
Spares are going away - the average metrosexual BMW purchaser wouldn't know what to do with one anyway.
You get a flat, you call someone - that's what people do these days.
EXCEPT!!!!
With the rft, you're kind of stuck. Get a flat on a weekend far from home and you may be staying somewhere a couple extra nights.
Lack of availability, especially in certain sizes is the biggest problem with the run up to run flats - cost and ride quality is secondary (to me).
Ed
One of my questions is whether there is a CAFE implication between dealer and factory. My guess is that there's a strong possibility that there is although it would probably be near invisible to the consumer.
I tried to figure this question out, got bogged down in the CFR, realized that none of this is billable, and gave up.
It's a good question, though.
I ordered a ContiComfortKit (compressor with optional auto goo injection), plus a Dynaplug kit, to keep in the MCS.
the average metrosexual BMW purchaser wouldn't know what to do with one anyway.
I always laugh (then roll my eyes :rolleyes: ) when I see a grown man standing there looking all feminine as the AAA guy is changing their flat tire on the side of the roadway.
Sharp11
02-08-2008, 12:16 PM
I always laugh (then roll my eyes :rolleyes: ) when I see a grown man standing there looking all feminine as the AAA guy is changing their flat tire on the side of the roadway.
Well, that would be me.......why change a tire when the triple A guy can do it?
I brought my car to the shop for its annual snow tire change this year - I've had it with wrestling over 50lb wheel and tire combos - my back thanked me.
Ed
Well, that would be me.......why change a tire when the triple A guy can do it?
Why wait 90 minutes on the shoulder of a crowded highway, when you can change your own tire in 10 minutes? That's what real men do (assuming no physical ailments keep them from doing so). :)
I don't care how long you've had the car. You foresaw the likely potential of porking a tire, you knew the car didn't have a spare, conciosuly decided to do nothing to protect yourself, and then after a tire was porked you complained about BMW making your life difficult. :rolleyes: Boo fucking hoo.
Manufacturers don't care whether you're driving in NYC or somewhere with a longer tire life expentancy and all of their motivations push them away from including spares. Their days of being included as OE equipment are likely numbered at best.
If I'm having to order a separate donut & its kit for nearly $300, if I'm throwing out newish RFT's and buying tires all over again just so I could regain the ride of the previous generation, if I can't go to any old tire shop and have to use special tires that are not stocked, BMW is making my life difficult. What is so hard to understand here? (and why so combative, jeez :rolleyes:)
The thread got a new direction precisely for this reason. BMWNA is not far from my area and they are getting a TON of feedback on how people want their regular tires & spares back. It is a possibility they will wind this back.
clyde
02-08-2008, 01:17 PM
BMW is making my life difficult. What is so hard to understand here? (and why so combative, jeez :rolleyes:)
You knew what was likely to happen, and you still bought the car. BMW did not make your life difficult. Instead, you chose to buy a car that would likely create inconveniences for you. You didn't have to buy the car.
I don't mean to be combative, but portraying yourself as a victim of circumstances beyond your control isn't exactly strumming my sympathy strings.
BMW may be hearing about it, but that sound may well be dwarfed by the sound of continuously ringing cash registers. You still bought their car even though you considered this to be a likley result, didn't you?
BMW may be hearing about it, but that sound may well be dwarfed by the sound of continuously ringing cash registers. You still bought their car even though you considered this to be a likley result, didn't you?
How many people think about that situation when buying a new car? How many salesmen warn their customers about RFT's? How often does a buyer even glance at what type of tires a car came with? And how many people do you think could tell you even one thing about the tires on their car at the moment?
With that in mind, I agree with equ. BMW is making things more difficult than they need to be, WRT tires.
BMW may be hearing about it, but that sound may well be dwarfed by the sound of continuously ringing cash registers. You still bought their car even though you considered this to be a likley result, didn't you?
Most things and purchases in life are compromises and the e90 xi is a major one in many ways. That I signed on to the compromise doesn't mean that I can't comment on the pros and cons of the compromise ever again, does it?
If I and a whole bunch of other e9x owners think that compromise can be improved, I find it a reasonable comment to make. That improvement could dwarf some 50lb weight saving nonsense & $100 cash saving - note also reduction in rotational, unsprung mass.
Isn't bubbling under warranty? I seem to recall in the E46 days, you could get your Turanza's replaced for free if it developed bubbling.
That's a neat idea - but I think you'd need a separate wheel & tire warranty for it. We'll just do this trip with the Honda...
clyde
02-08-2008, 01:43 PM
How many people think about that situation when buying a new car?
1. WGAS? Caveat emptor. The onus is on the consumer to know what they're buying.
2. equ wasn't the type of consumer you describe.
2. equ wasn't the type of consumer you describe.
That doesn't mean that BMW isn't making owners lives more difficult, though.
clyde
02-08-2008, 02:14 PM
Most things and purchases in life are compromises and the e90 xi is a major one in many ways. That I signed on to the compromise doesn't mean that I can't comment on the pros and cons of the compromise ever again, does it?
Of course not. However, there's a difference between saying, "It would be so much easier if BMW had included a spare," and saying, "I'm really annoyed with bmw making my life so difficult by not including a spare."
That improvement could dwarf some 50lb weight saving nonsense & $100 cash saving - note also reduction in rotational, unsprung mass.
Who would benefit from that improvement? You or BMW?
The decision about whether to make it available isn't about you. It's about BMW's bottom line. They remove the spare, they don't drop the price, they make more money. With the spare and associated tirechanging hardware gone, their CAFE goes up, they pay a smaller fine, they are left with more money in their pockets.
It only becomes BMW's interest to provide it when they lose sales becuase of not doing it. Until then, it's just people bitching on the internet...and frankly, if it wasn't this, it would be something else.
The decision about whether to make it available isn't about you. It's about BMW's bottom line.
Yup. Because all that matters is how big the CEO's yearly bonus is.
I'm really annoyed with NY for being so cold in winter, and smelly in August. :p
The decision about whether to make it available isn't about you. It's about BMW's bottom line. They remove the spare, they don't drop the price, they make more money. With the spare and associated tirechanging hardware gone, their CAFE goes up, they pay a smaller fine, they are left with more money in their pockets.
I agree, but there is a long-term component as well. After I bought my a4, two of my close friends got audis. While I owned e46s and an e39, I did recommend bmw to a bunch of my friends. Now, I'm not so sure. Can I really recommend to a normal person "Yes, buy it, throw out the tires, buy new tires, order this special kit from somewhere else, tie it down somehow, then you have a car."? It's so much simpler to say, "Get an acura or get an audi.".
Note that for the e90, the problem is much more than not having a spare. Rx-8's and porsches don't have spares, but at least they come with real tires and well, the porsche actually has room for a spare. The e90 comes with expensive, low grip, bad riding tires. They are also tires shops hate to touch or stock, so you're left with less infrastructure to support you. These (along with the lack of spare) increase hassle. At some point, hassle cuts into profits.
I agree, but there is a long-term component as well. After I bought my a4, two of my close friends got audis. While I owned e46s and an e39, I did recommend bmw to a bunch of my friends. Now, I'm not so sure. Can I really recommend to a normal person "Yes, buy it, throw out the tires, buy new tires, order this special kit from somewhere else, tie it down somehow, then you have a car."? It's so much simpler to say, "Get an acura or get an audi.".
Note that for the e90, the problem is much more than not having a spare. Rx-8's and porsches don't have spares, but at least they come with real tires and well, the porsche actually has room for a spare. The e90 comes with expensive, low grip, bad riding tires. They are also tires shops hate to touch or stock, so you're left with less infrastructure to support you. These (along with the lack of spare) increase hassle. At some point, hassle cuts into profits.
I agree with equ on this--I've got a buddy that got an E90 330i partially on my recommendation. Now he lives in NYC and gets bubbles in his tires with annoying regularity. Unlike me, he has neither the space nor the inclination to deal with an extra set of wheels--and it's a lease car, so he can't replace the RFTs with normal tires without having to swap them back again at end of lease. So he's left with being pissed off at the car and with buying used tires on ebay (because, seriously, there's only so many times you are going to pony up $375 for one tire, and because shops are so reluctant to do anything with RFTs there are lots of them out there).
Is this guy going to buy another BMW again? Dunno, and I don't know whether the tire issue is going to be a deal-breaker. But it certainly might be, and I know I am going to caveat my BMW recommendations to my non-enthusiast friends very carefully.
At the very present moment, a friend's wife wants to dump their e46 330i badly (electrical problems from hell). I can't recommend an e9x without qualifying - it's kind of hard. She's no enthusiast, likes some smallish SUV's, I find it easier to say, "Go check out the RDX" with absolutely no seat time in that thing.
The same is true of the Mini--the only reason that the Cooper S can't have a spare wheel is that the goofy center mounted exhaust is in the way.
Our Cooper S had the battery in the spare tire well below the cargo area... The center exhaust wasn't in the way -- but you'd have to move the batter. Did they move the battery on the new Cooper S's?
FWIW, when we replaced the tires on the MINI, we ditched the runflats. The ride was substantially better -- with limited impact on handling. We bought a can of fix-a-flat to keep in the back just in case we got a flat...
Of course not. However, there's a difference between saying, "It would be so much easier if BMW had included a spare," and saying, "I'm really annoyed with bmw making my life so difficult by not including a spare."
Fair enough, that's better wording.
Our Cooper S had the battery in the spare tire well below the cargo area... The center exhaust wasn't in the way -- but you'd have to move the batter. Did they move the battery on the new Cooper S's?
FWIW, when we replaced the tires on the MINI, we got ditched the runflats. The ride was substantially better -- with limited impact on handling. We bought a can of fix-a-flat to keep in the back just in case we got a flat...
You know, I don't actually know. I was making ASSumptions. I'd have to look, but you are probably right.
That sounds right. I'm pretty sure that the battery was in the spare tire well on mine.
Rx-8's and porsches don't have spares, but at least they come with real tires and well, the porsche actually has room for a spare.
Has no bearing on your overall point, but just to nitpick, the spare and trunk mount is a dealer-installed option on the RX-8. I have one. Uses up about 30% of the trunk space. :lol:
Has no bearing on your overall point, but just to nitpick, the spare and trunk mount is a dealer-installed option on the RX-8. I have one. Uses up about 30% of the trunk space. :lol:
I'll bet that your trunk is still twice as big as mine.
(I didn't mean that the way it sounded :D)
Has no bearing on your overall point, but just to nitpick, the spare and trunk mount is a dealer-installed option on the RX-8. I have one. Uses up about 30% of the trunk space. :lol:
Nice. Oh, the good old days of not just spares, but full-size spares.
I'll bet that your trunk is still twice as big as mine.
(I didn't mean that the way it sounded :D)
Not for long. :lol:
(And I'm not referring to an impending gym membership)
clyde
02-08-2008, 04:27 PM
I don't know whether the tire issue is going to be a deal-breaker. But it certainly might be,
And that's what gets right to the caveat...if not having them hurts sales (re: bottom line), they'll change their ways.
The other thing I'm saying, though, is that there is more motivation than ever to skip the spare. If the other manufacturers follow suit, and it does seem to be the growing trend, it will be a self-sealing hole, so to speak. If no one offers spares, it's a moot point.
clyde
02-08-2008, 04:29 PM
Has no bearing on your overall point, but just to nitpick, the spare and trunk mount is a dealer-installed option on the RX-8. I have one. Uses up about 30% of the trunk space. :lol:
IIRC, the spare kit for the RX-8 was a factory option (maybe port installed?) as well as dealer. Dunno if that changed by the time you bought yours, though...
IIRC, the spare kit for the RX-8 was a factory option (maybe port installed?) as well as dealer. Dunno if that changed by the time you bought yours, though...
Actually, I think you're right... the dealer didn't install mine... it was on the window sticker.
BahnBaum
02-08-2008, 05:11 PM
Yup. Because all that matters is how big the CEO's yearly bonus is.
Someone needs a primer in the profit motive.
Alex
SARAFIL
02-08-2008, 08:10 PM
Battery on all R56 MINI is under the hood, no longer in the trunk on the Cooper S.
It would be hard to find a home for spare due to the placement of the exhaust. However, on the new Cooper S Clubman, the dual exhaust tips come out on either side of the rear, vs. in the middle, so there is room in between to fit a donut spare. They still do not offer one, though.
(all Coopers, non-S, do have a donut spare mounted underneath the rear of the car on the left side, whether equipped with 15" regular tires or 16" runflats.)
Someone needs a primer in the profit motive.
Alex
I probably should've wrapped my comment in <Sarcasm> tags. :)
BahnBaum
02-08-2008, 08:53 PM
I probably should've wrapped my comment in <Sarcasm> tags. :)
I figured you just forgot.
:D
Alex
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