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lemming
01-30-2008, 06:00 PM
i'm open to suggestions.

i'm thinking 335i, CTS, CTS-V, G8, 535i.....any other thoughts or feedback?

after living with 2 doors again, it's a pain in the neck. and i did that math for fuel efficiency and it's not really notable moneys spent additionally for gas to get something that would be a little roomier and obviously faster.

being green and economical would be nice side benefits, but....:dunno:

SCA
01-30-2008, 06:08 PM
My vote is for a 335i. ;) The 535i is nice too, but honestly, the E60 is still one fugly BMW.

John V
01-30-2008, 06:09 PM
You obviously sold the CTS-V for a reason. What was it?

The new CTS seems nice, but way too heavy for what it is. The G8 appears to get you more of the good stuff for less money.

335 / 535 - haven't you complained before about having an open diff in the winter months? The 535 is too fugly for me to ever consider one. The 335 is a great car, even though I really wish they'd graft the coupe front end onto the sedans. They're starting to look pretty dated.

So... G8?

Theo
01-30-2008, 06:10 PM
I still want to see the G8 in person and sit in it. I was not happy it was not at the SF auto show.

The lady at the pontiac booth told me there were only two on the show car circut in all of the US.

Theo
01-30-2008, 06:12 PM
The 335 is a great car, even though I really wish they'd graft the coupe front end onto the sedans. They're starting to look pretty dated.


Dated by the third model year is not a good sign.

JST
01-30-2008, 06:13 PM
i'm open to suggestions.

i'm thinking 335i, CTS, CTS-V, G8, 535i.....any other thoughts or feedback?

after living with 2 doors again, it's a pain in the neck. and i did that math for fuel efficiency and it's not really notable moneys spent additionally for gas to get something that would be a little roomier and obviously faster.

being green and economical would be nice side benefits, but....:dunno:

You've had a CTS-V, so not that. The new one won't be out for, what, 8 months? The G8 won't be out with a stick until that timeframe, at least, and probably longer.

The 535 is...um, why? Unless you need lots of space, the 335 is cheaper, faster, better looking and cheaper. And faster. And drives better.

If you want a new car now, 335 or CTS 3.6. If you can wait until Jan. 09 then CTS-V or M3 sedan. Not that I've been giving either of those cars any thought at all. :eeps:

FWIW, I like the 335 and am deeply impressed with it. Moreover, beyond adding an LSD I cannot think of many ways that I would change it. That said, it doesn't fill me with passion.

John V
01-30-2008, 06:19 PM
Dated by the third model year is not a good sign.

Just my opinion, I'm sure many will disagree. I think the coupes look amazing.

Rob
01-30-2008, 06:25 PM
Just my opinion, I'm sure many will disagree. I think the coupes look amazing.
No doubt. I think the sedans look much better and even on the "my car is the only RIGHT choice" boards, I have not heard anybody buy John call them dated.

Of course, waiting for the Aphrodite Leader to show up with my own version of the dated front end could sway my opinion (or just be an example of how much I disagree).

Rob
01-30-2008, 06:26 PM
Lemming, I will sell you my 328i for cheap in about a month. It will give you everything you need until the CTS-V or M3s are available. :)

SCA
01-30-2008, 06:26 PM
Just my opinion, I'm sure many will disagree. I think the coupes look amazing.


Yup... to each his own. When you stare at the coupe all day it resembles a jap import (Honda).

I like the 1er coupe, but seriously... it looks dated before it has even been launched in the US.

John V
01-30-2008, 06:31 PM
I like the 1er coupe, but seriously... it looks dated before it has even been launched in the US.

Not sure "dated" is the word I'd use to describe the 1er... more like "hideous" or "homely."

No doubt. I think the sedans look much better and even on the "my car is the only RIGHT choice" boards, I have not heard anybody buy John call them dated.

Three of my neighbors have E90 sedans (oddly, all of them the same color: silver) and my main issue is with the chrome lipstick. That and the orange points at the ends of the headlights just look very strange to my eye. The rest of the car is fine (except the interior of course).

Edit: Did they facelift the headlights on the 3er? I looked at a bunch of google images and the headlights don't seem to have the orange in them that my neighbors' cars do...

SCA
01-30-2008, 06:37 PM
Not sure "dated" is the word I'd use to describe the 1er... more like "hideous" or "homely."

Well, since the vehicle has been out since 2004 and has had a recent facelift it still looks dated to me. :eeps:

lemming
01-30-2008, 06:44 PM
the CTS-V was at lease end and it wasn't the sort of car i'd want to own outside of the skimpy warranty.

i liked it except for the seats, the shifter and that weird gravel-like noise the rear LSD made at odd speeds.

i'd like a CTS-V v2.0, i guess. and i've been wavering a lot about the open diff thing. i'm wondering if i'm not being a stukabot about it, but at the same time, a lot of power through the rear wheels really begs for one, no?

Rob
01-30-2008, 06:53 PM
I remember saying the lsd was the feature I enjoyed most every day when I moved from the 330 to the M3. I am a little concerned about the issue on the 335. On the other hand, I haven't noticed it on my current car at all - mostly b/c i think the clutch is going and I don't want to replace it, so I baby it.

John V
01-30-2008, 06:58 PM
I can tell you from my brief drive in a 335 that I would notice the lack of an LSD every single day and it would annoy the piss out of me. That's not to say I wouldn't get used to it - I probably would - but it was very apparent. It's just got so much thrust that accelerating at even a moderate pace through a 90degree corner lights up the inside rear very easily.

lupinsea
01-30-2008, 06:59 PM
Seems like a good short list of cars for you to check out.

I have no need to do any 4-door sport sedan shopping myself but the new CTSs intrigue me, as does the G8. Saw another '08 CTS on the road yesterday. Looks good, real good. I'd be curious to get your opinion on it if you test drive one.

Same with the G8.

The 335i seems like the car to beat, though.

lemming
01-30-2008, 07:58 PM
Seems like a good short list of cars for you to check out.

I have no need to do any 4-door sport sedan shopping myself but the new CTSs intrigue me, as does the G8. Saw another '08 CTS on the road yesterday. Looks good, real good. I'd be curious to get your opinion on it if you test drive one.

Same with the G8.

The 335i seems like the car to beat, though.

hey lupe.

the problem is: i'm worried that RooWGer and JV are probably right. i think i'd notice the lack of one, too, with that much torque on tap.

JST
01-30-2008, 08:32 PM
hey lupe.

the problem is: i'm worried that RooWGer and JV are probably right. i think i'd notice the lack of one, too, with that much torque on tap.

I've had this discussion with JV before. The problem with the 335 isn't JUST the lack of an LSD; it's the overly intrusive stability control. I say this because the M3 used to piss me off constantly in the same way--jump on the throttle, the throttle gets cut, you have no power, and the truck is bearing down on you. Put an LSD in the 335 and you still have the DSC issue.

ff
01-30-2008, 08:39 PM
Just my opinion, I'm sure many will disagree. I think the coupes look amazing.

+10. The 3 Coupe is stunning.

equ
01-30-2008, 08:48 PM
I've had this discussion with JV before. The problem with the 335 isn't JUST the lack of an LSD; it's the overly intrusive stability control. I say this because the M3 used to piss me off constantly in the same way--jump on the throttle, the throttle gets cut, you have no power, and the truck is bearing down on you. Put an LSD in the 335 and you still have the DSC issue.

I find the e90 dsc hardly kicks in compared to the e46, but that could be the 'xi', one of its FEW saving graces. (Did I say I really dislike these tires & suspension?) A rwd turbo is going to be different.

My issue with the 335 was its overall soft tuning. Quiet, isolated, capable but just did not inspire me to drive fast. The s4 is also isolated and numb but somehow (either through better suspension or v8 growl) did generate hooliganism.

Theo
01-30-2008, 08:57 PM
I want to like the 335 I really do but once again its everywhere here. I cant turn a corner in Marin without one driving by. YAWWWWWN

On another note there are some cool pictures and a nice little blurb about the CTS-V in my automobile mag I just got in the mail today.

I am still on track this spring to loose both M3's and look for one car.

The E39 M5 is still the front runner (Numb steering and all) if I can find the perfect 03.

The CTS-V looks awesome on paper but I don't want to spend that much money. Anybody have a guess-ta-met on whats its going to cost?

I would go for CTS-V Lem. It looks like a great car, heavy as it may be.

wdc330i
01-30-2008, 09:09 PM
Edit: Did they facelift the headlights on the 3er? I looked at a bunch of google images and the headlights don't seem to have the orange in them that my neighbors' cars do...

Isn't the e90 getting a minor facelift sometime next year?

FC
01-30-2008, 09:36 PM
Yeah, that new CTS-V seems pretty bad-ass. And from reading C&D it sounds like they may have fixed most of the flaws of the last one ...except for weight.

armaq
01-31-2008, 01:19 AM
E90 M3?

John V
01-31-2008, 06:24 AM
I've had this discussion with JV before. The problem with the 335 isn't JUST the lack of an LSD; it's the overly intrusive stability control. I say this because the M3 used to piss me off constantly in the same way--jump on the throttle, the throttle gets cut, you have no power, and the truck is bearing down on you. Put an LSD in the 335 and you still have the DSC issue.

Turn it off? :dunno:

SARAFIL
01-31-2008, 08:17 AM
E90 M3?

I've been meaning to price one of these out to get an idea of the "real world" cost. While the base price does sound tempting, I'm not 100% up to date on what comes standard on this model and what is extra, and how much it would cost with the normal stuff. If this M3 is anything like the last generation, it probably has many features that are standard on the 335i that they will charge you for on the M3.

I'll revisit this once I have a chance to look over the options list and price one out.

FC
01-31-2008, 08:23 AM
I've been meaning to price one of these out to get an idea of the "real world" cost. While the base price does sound tempting, I'm not 100% up to date on what comes standard on this model and what is extra, and how much it would cost with the normal stuff. If this M3 is anything like the last generation, it probably has many features that are standard on the 335i that they will charge you for on the M3.

I'll revisit this once I have a chance to look over the options list and price one out.

That's a good point. My guess is that out the door the E90 M3 and CTS-V II will be very close in price. It'd funny to think of the E90 M3 as a light car, but it would undercut the CTS-V by what, 500lbs? The weight doesn't make as big a difference in the near-4000lbs range as it does in the 3000lbs range, but a 1/4 ton is a 1/4 ton. Still, neither is a sports car, and if you can swing a 60K sedan, you can probably get a weeend toy as well. My pick would be the CTS-V since it would be roomier, and apparently has 380lbs at 800rpm. :lol:

...and if you wait two years you can get a used one for 10K less than an equivalent M3.

lemming
01-31-2008, 10:12 AM
That's a good point. My guess is that out the door the E90 M3 and CTS-V II will be very close in price. It'd funny to think of the E90 M3 as a light car, but it would undercut the CTS-V by what, 500lbs? The weight doesn't make as big a difference in the near-4000lbs range as it does in the 3000lbs range, but a 1/4 ton is a 1/4 ton. Still, neither is a sports car, and if you can swing a 60K sedan, you can probably get a weeend toy as well. My pick would be the CTS-V since it would be roomier, and apparently has 380lbs at 800rpm. :lol:

...and if you wait two years you can get a used one for 10K less than an equivalent M3.

i'm thinking really hard about the CTS-V II at the moment. you guys raised some good points.

at a certain level, it's all subjective and to choose the e90m3 (4doors!) or the CTS-V seems mostly down to subjectivity. they're both GTs anyway and would boil down intangibles.

JST
01-31-2008, 10:31 AM
i'm thinking really hard about the CTS-V II at the moment. you guys raised some good points.

at a certain level, it's all subjective and to choose the e90m3 (4doors!) or the CTS-V seems mostly down to subjectivity. they're both GTs anyway and would boil down intangibles.

It will be hard to know without driving both how these two stack up. At the end of the day, though, I think that the CTS-V II may have jumped from "ridiculously over powered" (which is a good thing) to "comically over powered." Now, I am not one to snark about a car that is comically over-powered, but at the same time I think that the CTS-V II has probably gotten to a place where I am not willing to spend the extra coin for the juice it's got. I'd much prefer a normally aspirated LS3 version of the car. Less weight, less complexity, and probably better fuel economy (C/D's estimate of city economy on the CTS-V II is 12 mpg, and even I have a hard time swallowing that in a daily driver that rarely exceeds 40 mph).

The M3 has serious potential, but unlike Cadillac BMW is going to nickel and dime you to death. I think I can probably spec out an M3 to my taste that would be right around 60, but spending $500 here and there for things like paint, an iPod cable, and satrad is annoying as hell. Will the M3 have enough torque to make daily driving interesting, compared to the 335? Will it have the heavy control inputs that made driving the E46 M3 such a chore compared to the 330 and 335? Dunno. It will be interesting to see.

Really, though, either of these cars are complete overkill compared to the other options out there. The 335, G35, G8 and even the CTS 3.6 are so competent that it is hard to justify an extra 20 grand for the world-beating models, especially when you could use that 20 grand to buy something smaller and more nimble besides.

Sharp11
01-31-2008, 10:56 AM
Lemming could just get a 328i with a six speed and SP and be perfectly happy - ninety nine percent of his driving is zero to forty and back to zero again. The manual gear box would keep him entertained.

He'd also get decent real-world mileage and should he want to throw it into a turn or two, its sub-3500lb weight would make it feel most nimble of the E90's.

However, it won't get him nearly the status and admiring looks the E90 M3 would draw (especially from teenaged boys and what EQ called the 'moneyed goons')- and that's the real reason for a car like this.

Ed

John V
01-31-2008, 11:27 AM
Lemming could just get a 328i with a six speed and SP and be perfectly happy - ninety nine percent of his driving is zero to forty and back to zero again. The manual gear box would keep him entertained.

Shocking, I realize, but I agree with you and that's the car I would pick. Great mileage, lighter than a 335, and much less expensive.

We may actually have one of these in the household before too long... :eeps:

equ
01-31-2008, 11:45 AM
Or a nice clean 06 330i which adds a bit of hp, torque, xenons & logic7. ;)

The biggest downside are the rft tires. Even those are not as bad as the rft's on my xi. My feeling is that the rwd SP rides better on 18" summer RFT than my 330xi on 17" POS turanzas. Perhaps another flaw of the xi suspension or the those tires just cannot be saved (even after recall).

Sharp11
01-31-2008, 11:55 AM
Shocking, I realize, but I agree with you and that's the car I would pick. Great mileage, lighter than a 335, and much less expensive.

We may actually have one of these in the household before too long... :eeps:

Shocked? Why? I know we like the same type of cars, and that you watch american idol and - well, there is that motorcycle problem - hopefully you'll grow out of that :stickpoke:

Seriously, I know you well enough from your comments over the last couple of years what types of cars you prefer.

We see a lot of griping and complaining here, but the fact is, there are still cars from BMW and others that hit the sweet spot in terms of power, weight, price (especially used), etc., but are often ignored by the main stream media and subsequently buyers as people have been convinced by the numbers and pier pressure they need or absolutely "must have" more and more power (and more gizmos to reel in that power - and an array of entertainment features to distract the driver of the overpowered car.... all of it adding to more expense).

Almost no one considers a 328i, yet it's the same basic power to weight equation as the 330i of six or seven years ago, but has an improved chassis, more room and, in terms of value, actually probably costs less. :dunno:

And it'll never go into "limp home" mode ..... :lol:

Ed

Sharp11
01-31-2008, 11:58 AM
Or a nice clean 06 330i which adds a bit of hp, torque, xenons & logic7. ;)

The biggest downside are the rft tires. Even those are not as bad as the rft's on my xi. My feeling is that the rwd SP rides better on 18" summer RFT than my 330xi on 17" POS turanzas. Perhaps another flaw of the xi suspension or the those tires just cannot be saved (even after recall).

I'd stay with the 17's and slap on a set of non rf's.

There's a white 330xi at BMW of Ridgefield (9k miles) that's been for sale for a few months - it's got a SP with the same 18 inch wheels and tires as the 330i rear drive SP-equipped cars. You might ask to drive it to see.

Ed

equ
01-31-2008, 12:16 PM
To the 328i/330i, I'd add the usual suspects, the zhp & the e46m3. (I'm thinking 30's or less for budget here).

But then again lem has a greater desire for power/torque than most of us.

Rob
01-31-2008, 12:52 PM
Almost no one considers a 328i, yet it's the same basic power to weight equation as the 330i of six or seven years ago, but has an improved chassis, more room and, in terms of value, actually probably costs less. :dunno:Ed

Are you serious? The magazines and other press may mostly ignore it, but BMW will sell tons more 328s then they will 335s, just as they sold tons more 325s then they did 330s in the last generation. Our discussion attendence seems to typically be made up of people that can afford the jump, but the majority of 3 series owners are stretching and they end up with the 328.

I considered the 328 and I chose the 335 for a few specific reasons - when you load them up the same, the cost difference isn't all that great (about $4k iirc - not chump change, but not huge either), the 335 has more power, and since I am committing to keeping this car longer then my average 18 months or so, if I start to get bored, it's cheap to add a lot more hp and torque with a simple software download. Yes, that might require a not so cheap lsd addition, but that's available too. :dunno:

If the price was a deal breaker and I wasn't enthralled with the idea of easy hp gains later, I would have bought a 328 and been happy with it - no question. So at least one of us considered it and chose the 335 anyway.

If you were looking for stripped down with no excess weight, the 328 is a no brainer b/c that IS much less expensive. I expect that would be exactly what John would like, but I doubt you would be happy that way. I tried that route once. Although it seemed like a good idea at the time, it turned out that I like luxury stuff to go along with the power and switching cars quickly is way more expensive then the few grand it cost to upgrade (ask me how I know).

Don't mind my tirade. :irate: I just saw "almost noone considers a 328i" and couldn't believe it was in print. :lol:

JST
01-31-2008, 01:00 PM
Are you serious? The magazines and other press may mostly ignore it, but BMW will sell tons more 328s then they will 335s, just as they sold tons more 325s then they did 330s in the last generation. Our discussion attendence seems to typically be made up of people that can afford the jump, but the majority of 3 series owners are stretching and they end up with the 328.

I considered the 328 and I chose the 335 for a few specific reasons - when you load them up the same, the cost difference isn't all that great (about $4k iirc - not chump change, but not huge either), the 335 has more power, and since I am committing to keeping this car longer then my average 18 months or so, if I start to get bored, it's cheap to add a lot more hp and torque with a simple software download. Yes, that might require a not so cheap lsd addition, but that's available too. :dunno:

If the price was a deal breaker and I wasn't enthralled with the idea of easy hp gains later, I would have bought a 328 and been happy with it - no question. So at least one of us considered it and chose the 335 anyway.

If you were looking for stripped down with no excess weight, the 328 is a no brainer b/c that IS much less expensive. I expect that would be exactly what John would like, but I doubt you would be happy that way. I tried that route once. Although it seemed like a good idea at the time, it turned out that I like luxury stuff to go along with the power and switching cars quickly is way more expensive then the few grand it cost to upgrade (ask me how I know).

Don't mind my tirade. :irate: I just saw "almost noone considers a 328i" and couldn't believe it was in print. :lol:

It's not even right to say that the press ignores the 328 (or the 325):

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/14424/2007-bmw-328i-v-2008-cadillac-cts-di-v-2008-infiniti-g35-sport-v-2008-mercedes-benz-c300-sport.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/12928/2007-vw-eos-v-2007-audi-a4-v-2007-bmw-328i-v-2007-volvo-c70-v-2007-saab-9-3.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroadtests/10106/bmw-325i.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/7785/2004-acura-tl-v-2004-audi-a4-v-2004-bmw-325i-v-infiniti-g35-v-2004-jaguar-x-type-v-2004-lexus-is300-v-2004-saab-9-3.html

Frankly, for me, once I drove the turbo engined car the choice was obvious, but I am a power mad idiot (and the good lease deals on the 335 meant that I got it for a very reasonable price). I agree that, in the vast majority of circumstances, the 328 is a lovely car.

clyde
01-31-2008, 01:07 PM
Charger SRT8

clyde
01-31-2008, 01:14 PM
Actually...we're all forgetting something here.

http://jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/01/79_Chevette_LH_Frt.jpg

FC
01-31-2008, 01:24 PM
I'm completely biased, and I recognize that, but why would one consider an E90 328i when one can have an E46 330i (or ZHP) for far less and have a car that is lighter, and with more power (nevermind, better looking and probably more reliable)?

Sure if you must lease, then that is another issue, but even now you can buy a nice '05 CPO E46 with a 3 year warranty for MANY thoousands less.

Sharp11
01-31-2008, 02:04 PM
Don't mind my tirade. :irate: I just saw "almost noone considers a 328i" and couldn't believe it was in print. :lol:

Pardon me, I sometimes forget how literal some of you guys are :rolleyes:

I was talking primarily about the people here and on other message boards where power reigns supreme..... not the general public, who probably shop 328's against Accords and realize the badge might earn them a few points in exchange for a good lease price.

Ed

Rob
01-31-2008, 02:08 PM
More power? I thought the 328 was 240 or something. Regardless, I was really impressed with the 328's handling ability. It might be a comparison thing for me coming from the 200k mile car, but I was looking for e46s when I test drove the e90. I think it's a much better platform -enough so that I am buying a car I thought I had no interest in.

lemming
01-31-2008, 05:18 PM
More power? I thought the 328 was 240 or something. Regardless, I was really impressed with the 328's handling ability. It might be a comparison thing for me coming from the 200k mile car, but I was looking for e46s when I test drove the e90. I think it's a much better platform -enough so that I am buying a car I thought I had no interest in.

i drove an e90 with the 3.0litre six recently.

it's in incredibly competent vehicle. i think i've already got that, though. i want something with some hooliganism built into the car, which is why i glossed over the 328. it's fine. but to be honest with you, driven back to back with the MCS, it lacks some torque big time. different engine characteristics, but it would drive me crazy to have to spool up the engine to get some torque in stop and go situations --this is where either a turbocharged engine (twin scroll only apply) or larger displacement six/eight wins.

i had forgotten about the g8. i'll be driving a CTS 3.6DI when they start shipping with manual trannys --at the moment they are not. and the G8 won't ship with the T6060 until its second model year.

absolutely on point here. if the g8, 335i, CTS DI can do the job, i'd not see the reason to buy a 60k car as my commuter. it's simply a waste of money and i'm not one to impress co-workers or people i don't know.

i'll be honest and tell you that i hope like heck i don't like the CTS-V. i'd likely never consider the e90m3 because if i was going to buy that car, i'd just get a 911 as a daily driver, to be perfectly honest. when things get closer and closer to 70k, the 911 is always the winner to me.

lemming
01-31-2008, 05:22 PM
just an afterthought: as curb weights creep up these days....the mustang GT sure doesn't seem all that heavy anymore, does it?

John V
01-31-2008, 05:30 PM
- well, there is that motorcycle problem - hopefully you'll grow out of that

Couldn't agree more... not having room for more than one motorcycle is indeed a problem. Hopefully I'll grow out of the condo soon and into a house with a garage :)

equ
01-31-2008, 06:14 PM
I think for about 60k an 05 997 base would make an excellent commuter. Torquey and light... ;)

lemming
01-31-2008, 07:26 PM
I think for about 60k an 05 997 base would make an excellent commuter. Torquey and light... ;)

i guess that's what i mean.

you could pay MORE than 60k for the new M3 or for the CTS-V, and i'll tell ya, you'll get one helluva car. smells like a duck. quacks like one. but they're both really moving hammers and you'll feel that weight everytime you accelerate or decelerate. i've been there. i know what 3850lbs feel like day in/day out for 2 years.

it's tedious after awhile, even with >300ft-lbs at 1200rpms.

that's part of the issue, too.