View Full Version : Quick. Slap me. I'm starting to think the Merc R320 CDI makes some sense.
When you consider what the 7-passenger lux utes cost, $46K for a 6 passenger AWD Mercedes with tons of torque, decent gas mileage and a lower center of gravity doesn't strike me as all that stupid. Sure it's ugly. But so is damn near everything else these days.
I know everyone here seems to hate the R-class, but tell me it doesn't make some sense in a 6-passenger/7-passenger context.
clyde
10-04-2007, 03:55 PM
:rotflmmfao:
:rotflmmfao:
Understood.
Remember, we ain't bought shit yet.
See forum name.
clyde
10-04-2007, 03:57 PM
Understood.
Remember, we ain't bought shit yet.
See forum name.
I will never forget the conversation we had with your wife the first time I was at your house which could be summed up as, "Tom buys about 20 cars a day in his head."
But remember this...I drank the Kool Aid over a year ago. It's kinda tasty.
I will never forget the conversation we had with your wife the first time I was at your house which could be summed up as, "Tom buys about 20 cars a day in his head."
But remember this...I drank the Kool Aid over a year ago. It's kinda tasty.
As I said... Understood.
BahnBaum
10-04-2007, 04:01 PM
...tell me it doesn't make some sense in a 6-passenger/7-passenger context.
I always thought you were too cool to drive a slushie.
Alex
If the price was [a lot] lower, I'd say that it would make some sense in that context. But at $46K, I'd sooner opt for the $35K Armada which seats more, hauls more, puts out gobs more torque, and will go more off-road than the R class. And it gets a real-world 18 MPG to boot.
If the R350 cost under $30K, yeah, I would consider it.
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/74154170.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1932204034FA11B84B87B6B38A7E986E8FF 284831B75F48EF45
I always thought you were too cool to drive a slushie.
Alex
The options for 6 or 7-passenger vehicles with a stick are very limited - basically a Volvo wagon or a Mazda 5 mini-minivan. And the Volvo's third row only takes kids up to 60 lbs and it's rear-facing.
So more or less bagging those two ideas (drove the Mazda 5 and it truly SUCKED), we either bag the stick or just stay with the Saab indefinitely.
So far nothing I've driven has provided any temptation to sell the Saab. I hated both the CX-9 and MDX, and they are supposedly the more "sporty" of the 7-passenger SUVs.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41668000/jpg/_41668006_slap416.jpg
Thanks.
It's sad when the state of automotive design is such that I more or less get over "ugly". When everything is ugly, ugly starts to matter less and less.
Sad.
The options for 6 or 7-passenger vehicles with a stick are very limited - basically a Volvo wagon or a Mazda 5 mini-minivan. And the Volvo's third row only takes kids up to 60 lbs and it's rear-facing.
So more or less bagging those two ideas (drove the Mazda 5 and it truly SUCKED), we either bag the stick or just stay with the Saab indefinitely.
So far nothing I've driven has provided any temptation to sell the Saab. I hated both the CX-9 and MDX, and they are supposedly the more "sporty" of the 7-passenger SUVs.
Have you driven an R class? I can't imagine it would be much better. Bigger, more Mercedes-like? Yuck.
Have you driven an R class? I can't imagine it would be much better. Bigger, more Mercedes-like? Yuck.
I was hoping the diesel's torque combined with the lower center of gravity make a positive difference.
The CX-9 was *okay*, but felt so lumbering and large as it's weight shifted from any change of speed or direction. Almost identical drive-wise to the MDX.
I was hoping the diesel's torque combined with the lower center of gravity make a positive difference.
The CX-9 was *okay*, but felt so lumbering and large as it's weight shifted from any change of speed or direction. Almost identical drive-wise to the MDX.
The R320 is only 3 inches shorter than a CX-9, and it weighs at least 300 lbs more (I don't see a weight for the CDI, but the other Rs range from 4800 to 5100 lbs; the CX-9 is 4500). It does have a hell of a lot of torque, though.
At least you can probably get 1.9 percent financing.
Well, I will go on record again as going against the glow. The R class is a very well designed car for what it is. It's got an exceptional interior (for a mini-van/suv hybrid), it has exceptional features, and while it doesn't drive like a 3 series, it doesn't drive like a mini-van either.
If I was in the market for a mini suv, it would be on my list. It didn't stack up against the mini-van for overal all practicality and price, but they are very nice for what they are.
The R320 is only 3 inches shorter than a CX-9, and it weighs at least 300 lbs more (I don't see a weight for the CDI, but the other Rs range from 4800 to 5100 lbs; the CX-9 is 4500). It does have a hell of a lot of torque, though.
At least you can probably get 1.9 percent financing.
Well, all that being the case, I'll probably hate the R as well.
http://www.gifworks.com/queue/slap_29798.gif
http://www.gifworks.com/queue/slap_29798.gif
Two thoughts:
1- I'm a bit unnerved that you chose to be the guy going for my nuts.
2- Neither Clyde nor I look anything like that.
YOUR NUTS?!
I'm just slapping your forehead :D
You are not insane. With the lower prices and the diesel engine, it makes some sense. I've not driven it though. You should do that first. I'm partial to the GL because I can sure use the ground clearance if I were to consider something that big (and the GL is actually shorter than the R, IIRC).
Considering it is nearly 10K cheaper than an E-wagon, I don't think it's crazy.
Also, what do you to with the 3rd row on the R? Can they fold away completely? Because that is what I like about the GL. It has real adult-sized 3rd row seats that dissapear completely flush with the cargo floor when not in use.
rumatt
10-04-2007, 04:56 PM
http://www.gifworks.com/queue/slap_29798.gif
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
TD -
Did you get one of those mailings from MB about the lease specials on the R class too (also had an ML offer)?
I got one last week -- looks like MB has some decent lease specials on them if you actually are interested. The mailing had only 10k miles/yr (to show the best price), but they are making the R class lease well right now...
I'm still not going to look at one though -- although I don't think they are as ugly as some on this board. Its better looking than the 1st gen ML, and it has some design quirks. But for what it is, I think its a good looking low SUV / tall wagon / quasi minivan...
You are not insane. With the lower prices and the diesel engine, it makes some sense. I've not driven it though. You should do that first. I'm partial to the GL because I can sure use the ground clearance if I were to consider something that big (and the GL is actually shorter than the R, IIRC).
Considering it is nearly 10K cheaper than an E-wagon, I don't think it's crazy.
Also, what do you to with the 3rd row on the R? Can they fold away completely? Because that is what I like about the GL. It has real adult-sized 3rd row seats that dissapear completely flush with the cargo floor when not in use.
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2007/9/25/230/008/2956419809.230008681.IM1.21.565x421_A.562x421.jpg
It's such a HIDEOUS thing... Why do people need so many seats? How did our parents cope? I will NEVER get something like the R...
It's such a HIDEOUS thing... Why do people need so many seats? How did our parents cope? I will NEVER get something like the R...
Whatever.
When we were kids, there were no child seat laws and kids were tossed wherever. Five across in the back seat? Sure.
Why do people need so many seats? Two kids plus two friends won't fit in back seat of any regular sedan or wagon.
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2007/9/25/230/008/2956419809.230008681.IM1.21.565x421_A.562x421.jpg
Is that big enough to hold the emaciated scraps of smoldering debris formerly known as your manhood? :lol:
Is that big enough to hold the emaciated scraps of smoldering debris formerly known as your manhood? :lol:
Well, my manhood is pretty large...
He said manhood, not ego! :lol:
So what exactly is the benefit of this over an Odyssey?
It's a nicer car. If you don't need min van style capacity (strollers and what not), I would put this above a mini van simply b/c of how nice of a car it is (cost notwithstanding). It also drives significantly better and feels like it has more power.
But they are way more expenisve. The Sienna with everything under the sun is out the door for less than $40k. The Odyssey is pretty similar.
The odyssey likely drives better. The sienna has awd, they're hideous too but at least they're not the R-class. Ugh.
John V
10-05-2007, 06:47 AM
It's such a HIDEOUS thing... Why do people need so many seats? How did our parents cope? I will NEVER get something like the R...
It's the ultimate minivan for those without enough self-confidence to drive a minivan.
It's the ultimate minivan for those without enough self-confidence to drive a minivan.
Yes.
By the way, that 3rd row folds flat nicely, but you know the seats are folded because the 3rd row seat cushions are stuicking up. On the GL, when folded, you would think there was no 3d row at all. Still, they fold nicely enough.
I don't think it's pretty at all but I would not cry if we had one as the family vehicle. My wife on the other hand, really hates the looks.
The odyssey does not come close to driving as well. *shrug*
It's no better or worse then lots of other cars that some people like and some people don't.
While I agree that many suv owners don't have the self confidence to drive a mini-van, if you removed some considerations (like price, cargo space, utility of sliding doors with very young kids, etc.), we would consider this car. It's really nice in the back for a mini van. And we have a mini van, so . . . well, I suppose we have a mini van and not this. *shrug again*
3LOU5
10-06-2007, 01:20 AM
Call me crazy, but I would STILL buy an Odyssey (only because I have enough self-confidence, hehe) over this overpriced, horrendous-looking machine. :dunno:
Then, with the money I saved, splurge on a used 2-seat roadster (Miata or S2k) that should satisfy my need to carve some corners. ;)
Call me crazy, but I would STILL buy an Odyssey (only because I have enough self-confidence, hehe) over this overpriced, horrendous-looking machine. :dunno:
Then, with the money I saved, splurge on a used 2-seat roadster (Miata or S2k) that should satisfy my need to carve some corners. ;)
Well, I am not the only driver in my family who cares how their primary vehicle drives. My wife appreciates many of the same traits I do. Currently our Saab wagon, while no sports car, does a decent job of being very drivable while still being practical. But the Saab does feel like a sports car compared to the 7 passenger SUVs and regular minivans I've driven to date. I mean, we'd all get carsick riding in something like an Odyssey. I still haven't had a chance to drive one of these Rs. And it'll probably suck too. But the quest is to find decent feel in a 6 or 7 passenger vehicle.
3LOU5
10-06-2007, 07:05 AM
Well, I am not the only driver in my family who cares how their primary vehicle drives. My wife appreciates many of the same traits I do. Currently our Saab wagon, while no sports car, does a decent job of being very drivable while still being practical. But the Saab does feel like a sports car compared to the 7 passenger SUVs and regular minivans I've driven to date. I mean, we'd all get carsick riding in something as softly sprung as an Odyssey. I still haven't had a chance to drive one of these Rs. And it'll probably suck too. But the quest is to find decent feel in a 6 or 7 passenger vehicle.
I see your point.
However, I think that it is just about theoretically impossible to build, let alone find, a 6/7 passenger vehicle with "decent feel" and road handling manners, imo.
I often wondered what it would be like if the current Odyssey was lowered and the suspension stiffened up a bit, and was offered with a manual transmission and AWD. It would probably be similar to dressing up a sheep in wolf's clothing. :lol:
And plus, the damn thing would probably never sell.
IndyMike
10-06-2007, 08:46 AM
X5 3.0si
JB or AW with black ette
Sports Package, 3rd Row and for '08 Panoramic Moonroof free
invoice $46k region
X5 3.0si
JB or AW with black ette
Sports Package, 3rd Row and for '08 Panoramic Moonroof free
invoice $46k region
Unfortunately, as with most mid-size SUV's, the X5's 3rd row is a joke. And of course, when you do use them, you can barely fit a small gym bag with what is left of cargo space.
I often wondered what it would be like if the current Odyssey was lowered and the suspension stiffened up a bit, and was offered with a manual transmission and AWD. It would probably be similar to dressing up a sheep in wolf's clothing. :lol:
Actually just such an odyssey (but still fwd I believe) won its class in One Lap of America. I'd buy and modify an odyssey before I touch the R with an 18-ft pole.
Looks like a big turd and it will drive like a big turd. Why do you need the 3-pointed star on the front?
IndyMike
10-06-2007, 12:36 PM
Unfortunately, as with most mid-size SUV's, the X5's 3rd row is a joke. And of course, when you do use them, you can barely fit a small gym bag with what is left of cargo space.
The question is how often is the 3rd row really going be used and will they be utilized for short trips or long trips. I get the impression they will only be used for trips around town or to the amusement park, not extended vacations type junkets with family or friends.
If the former is the case, then they are perfectly adequate for the function. If the latter is the purpose, then yeah, this option is fraught with serious downsides.
Bottom line is some sort of compromise is going to have be worked out. There is not to be had a vehicle that meets all of their requirements.
Personally, I would just get a Tahoe or Suburban and be done with it. Good deals can be had on new '07's still on dealers lots. IMO they are the sharpest looking Ute's on the market, spare maybe the Escalade which is at a much higher price point.
Suburbans are nice, but they don't fit TD's image and nice is a relative term. Compared to the Mercedes that you guys all hate so much (most without even sitting in one, much less driving one, I am sure), the suburbans are definately entry level.
Compared to the Mercedes that you guys all hate so much (most without even sitting in one, much less driving one, I am sure), the suburbans are definately entry level.
It's not that we hate the car. It's just that it doesn't seem to make much sense for that kind of money. If what you need is 7-passenger room, there are countless better options out there (convenience, ability, space) that cost $10-20K less. I'll bet that the only advantage that the Merc has over the other options is... snob appeal.
It's nicer inside. It's better designed (from a creature comfort standpoint) then most. *shrug* I wouldn't buy one if the price was competitive, but I understand why some people do. I understand why TD would think it makes sense. I don't think it's worth the price premium personally, but it's not a horrible car if you have to have something like this and you can't stand the thought of driving a Siena.
It's not that we hate the car. It's just that it doesn't seem to make much sense for that kind of money. If what you need is 7-passenger room, there are countless better options out there (convenience, ability, space) that cost $10-20K less. I'll bet that the only advantage that the Merc has over the other options is... snob appeal.
Considering your vehicle purchase history, I don't think you should be one talking about snob appeal. Last I checked, you had a Camry with the $15K snob appeal package (Lexus ES).
I am genuinely focused on trying to find a 6 or 7 passenger vehicle with decent driving feel. It doesn't have to be a sports car. But not getting carsick on a roadtrip from the floatiness is kind of important.
Considering your vehicle purchase history, I don't think you should be one talking about snob appeal. Last I checked, you had a Camry with the $15K snob appeal package (Lexus ES).
A Lexus ES has snob appeal? :? And if you think the markup on the ES over the Camry is $15K, you need to look a little closer.
I am genuinely focused on trying to find a 6 or 7 passenger vehicle with decent driving feel. It doesn't have to be a sports car. But not getting carsick on a roadtrip from the floatiness is kind of important.
Why do I get the feeling that the MB would be floaty too?
A Lexus ES has snob appeal? :? And if you think the markup on the ES over the Camry is $15K, you need to look a little closer.
Why do I get the feeling that the MB would be floaty too?
I haven't cared enough about any Camry variant to actually be up on the details.
And if the R is floaty too, then forgetaboutit.
Might as well just go all-in and buy it, then take the kids to church in it on Sundays. :p
dredmo
10-08-2007, 02:10 PM
In most 'mudgeon cases, car purchase straddle performance, status, and practicality. This particular case is pretty much all about status.
As far as practicality goes, even the American-made competition blows it out of the water. Performance... well more can be had for less.
The area where this reigns supreme is status and a fancier cabin. I say if you got the money, and want your kids and your wife to have popularity edge among shallow friends, get it.
But TD, knowing what you're actually enthusiastic about, why is this even interesting to you except for the above? Maybe you've just changed a whole lot and don't want to admit it. :)
Oh yeah, IIRC, aren't you the one who used to abhor the people who drove things like this?
clyde
10-08-2007, 02:37 PM
Having driven a few, but certainly not all, of the 6/6+ passenger vehicles available since the real 6 passenger sedans disappeared, I'd be really surprised if anything available today will come close, let alone meet, TD's "driving feel" requirement.
That said, the main complaint, floatiness, can probably be addressed to the point of being acceptable by revalving the shocks/struts. If Koni or Bilstein makes replacements, they probably aren't too expensive to start with and getting them revlaved to more sporty curves shouldn't cost much (adding adjustability is where the price starts going up).
Seriously, if you could take any of the vehicles you're looking at and eliminate the floatiness for under $1k in parts (and spend a day with the gang doing the labor) would that change the equation for you?
That was going to be my next suggestion too. Aftermarket shocks (and some nice, chrome 22's) would help firm up the Odyssey nicely.
Another alternative is a full-sized SUV with an off-road package. I think (though not 100% sure) that the off-road packages are stiffer than your run of the mill SUV suspensions.
dredmo
10-08-2007, 03:04 PM
That was going to be my next suggestion too. Aftermarket shocks (and some nice, chrome 22's) would help firm up the Odyssey nicely.
Another alternative is a full-sized SUV with an off-road package. I think (though not 100% sure) that the off-road packages are stiffer than your run of the mill SUV suspensions.
Yeah my F-150 off road package feels excellent with barely an ounce of float; some models of excursion share similar suspension setups.
((Yes, I've figured out how to measure vehicular float in ounces so fuck off)) :mad2::D
3LOU5
10-08-2007, 03:21 PM
Actually just such an odyssey (but still fwd I believe) won its class in One Lap of America. I'd buy and modify an odyssey before I touch the R with an 18-ft pole.
Looks like a big turd and it will drive like a big turd. Why do you need the 3-pointed star on the front?
I read that article too.
The only thing that the Odyssey suffers from, if you are going to really make it handle (as well as a huge minivan could anyway), is its FWD configuration.
Making its suspension a bit stiffer is an easy fix, as you can change out the struts and shocks, and buy even shorter springs, like someone already mentioned.
I have actually drove my minivan from Eureka, CA to Medford, OR. For a huge vehicle, it actually took the curves surprisingly well. I think it is THE best handling minivan out there. Granted it ain't no BMW, but if interior space and comfort is your priority, well ....
IndyMike
10-08-2007, 03:28 PM
Are Odysee's see optioned devoid of moonroof?
Never quite understood that, but I guess it made sense if you were planning to auto X it. :)
Here you go, TD: $279/month lease, 12K miles.year, $2500 due at signing.
http://automobiles.honda.com/current-offers.aspx
wdc330i
10-08-2007, 08:12 PM
Are Odysee's see optioned devoid of moonroof?
Never quite understood that, but I guess it made sense if you were planning to auto X it. :)
Hmmm. Is it because of the front and rear DVD systems?
SARAFIL
10-08-2007, 09:34 PM
Here you go, TD: $279/month lease, 12K miles.year, $2500 due at signing.
http://automobiles.honda.com/current-offers.aspx
The Odyssey LX is too plain ($25k)... you need at least an EX-L with Navi and RES ($35k), which is quite a bit more. Or go all the way with a Touring ($37k)... ;)
SARAFIL
10-08-2007, 09:36 PM
Are Odysee's see optioned devoid of moonroof?
Never quite understood that, but I guess it made sense if you were planning to auto X it. :)
the higher-end models have it standard (EX-L and Touring)
The Odyssey LX is too plain ($25k)... you need at least an EX-L with Navi and RES ($35k), which is quite a bit more. Or go all the way with a Touring ($37k)... ;)
The only thing worse than driving a Honda minivan every day would be driving a Honda minivan every day that you knew you'd paid $37,000 for. :ack:
SARAFIL
10-08-2007, 10:14 PM
The only thing worse than driving a Honda minivan every day would be driving a Honda minivan every day that you knew you'd paid $37,000 for. :ack:
Touring with RES and Navi is $39k. :eek::eek:
lemming
10-08-2007, 10:30 PM
1. there is no 7 seater that has "driving feel".
2. see no. 1 again
3. i'd get a Buick Enclave Super (v8 model) if i had to deal with F1 progeny and their friends on a regular basis --a thought that truly depresses me.
3LOU5
10-08-2007, 10:54 PM
The only thing worse than driving a Honda minivan every day would be driving a Honda minivan every day that you knew you'd paid $37,000 for. :ack:
Spoken like a true driver who has never had the opportunity (or the pleasure) of hauling 7 people in relative comfort around. :stickpoke:
lupinsea
10-08-2007, 10:58 PM
Glad to see the stickpoke smiley is getting used.
3LOU5
10-08-2007, 11:07 PM
Glad to see the stickpoke smiley is getting used.
:shitfan:
:eeps:
Spoken like a true driver who has never had the opportunity (or the pleasure) of hauling 7 people in relative comfort around. :stickpoke:
I don't know 7 people. Why would I carry around strangers?
EDIT: Seriously, I've rarely been in the position where I need to carry that many people. When I have been, we take two cars (or my sister in law's giant Saturn). I understand that there are people who need the utility, and I am glad Honda builds a vehicle for them; I am also glad Honda does not build a vehicle I need to buy.
lemming
10-08-2007, 11:39 PM
i'd kill myself if i had to be in charge of 5-6 six kids in addition to my own without help from other parents.
so, that all but guarantees that i'd never truly need to carry 7 persons all by myself.
definitely be a two car ordeal.
while i understand the absolute numerical requirement, i find the logic to have an automobile purchase defined by this number elusive. how many days out of the year would you need to carry 7 again?
using this same logic, i need to buy a suburban tomorrow because i sometimes need to carry large things to the dump and have to ferry more than 5 people around about twice a year.
lupinsea
10-09-2007, 12:59 AM
how many days out of the year would you need to carry 7 again?
using this same logic, i need to buy a suburban tomorrow because i sometimes need to carry large things to the dump and have to ferry more than 5 people around about twice a year.
:school:
It was similar logic when I got my 2-seater Miata. . . I figured when I got together with friend's I'd let them deal with carting a load full of people around since they saw a 2-door sports car as "impractical". Fine, might as well put their lamemobilles to good use since they insisted on them.
It's similar with our BMW. It's a car that fits my family's needs, not some imagined scenariou where we're having to car friends and kids around. Let others suffer the Fate of the Minivan.
Speaking of which. . . it still kills me. . . our friends spent $100 more than us and got a Toyota Siena minivan. We bought the BMW 330i ZHP. And we'd be able to still fit the same 2 car seats in the car (though no other adult passengers).
You guys really make me laugh.
Our Sienna is nicer than the 330 I had. It doesn't drive for shit, but it is nicer. We don't have 5 kids, yet we seem to make use of the mini van all the time. Granted we have two big dogs, but still - you apparently would be trying to smash them and baby seats and strollers and gear into a four passenger car. It's the right solution for a lot of situations and if TD needs one - even if it's just for soccer practice - all this talk about how he *shouldn't* need one is ridiculous.
Whatever. Carry on with the preconceptions, misconceptions, and rock solid opinions formed without ever setting foot in the car.
3LOU5
10-09-2007, 01:26 AM
You guys really make me laugh.
Our Sienna is nicer than the 330 I had. It doesn't drive for shit, but it is nicer. We don't have 5 kids, yet we seem to make use of the mini van all the time. Granted we have two big dogs, but still - you apparently would be trying to smash them and baby seats and strollers and gear into a four passenger car. It's the right solution for a lot of situations and if TD needs one - even if it's just for soccer practice - all this talk about how he *shouldn't* need one is ridiculous.
Whatever. Carry on with the preconceptions, misconceptions, and rock solid opinions formed without ever setting foot in the car.
:+1
I'm with rwg on this. If you have 2 or more kids, it's a no-brainer having a minivan, IMO.
To me, ROOMINESS is the key factor. (Maybe it's because I don't like being cooped up and having that uncomfortable "closed-in" feeling with people and stuff aboard). With dogs/cats and grandparents and in-laws running around hoping to spend time with little Johnny or Janie, and lugging around sporting equipment for their events, it's the vehicle of choice. I don't have kids yet, but I just can't see myself without one when I finally do have kids. Before I got my Silverado, it has saved me LOTS wrt Home Depot runs and such.
Perhaps people here despise it so much because of its "lemming" and "soccer mom" image (like, duh). Personally, I don't give a rat's ass on what people think of me and my choice of cars. Practicality and function is FAR more important than other people's opinions. :mad2:
It's the right solution for a lot of situations and if TD needs one - even if it's just for soccer practice - all this talk about how he *shouldn't* need one is ridiculous.
Whatever. Carry on with the preconceptions, misconceptions, and rock solid opinions formed without ever setting foot in the car.
Perhaps TD's getting it because of all the stuff he's dished out over the years on multiple boards about nobody really needing anything more than a 4-door sedan.
:D
By expressing interest in the R, TD managed to do two things he *shouldn't* do. The first is to start thinking about the 7-seater rather than avoid it for as long as possible. I mean, this is not some happy daydream when you're speeding along in your 9x7 or s2k. The second, and arguably worse thing is bypass the odyssey/sienna category that seem to work for 99.99% of Americans who need 7-seats (for likely the same reasons as TD).
I don't know 7 people. Why would I carry around strangers?
EDIT: Seriously, I've rarely been in the position where I need to carry that many people. When I have been, we take two cars (or my sister in law's giant Saturn). I understand that there are people who need the utility, and I am glad Honda builds a vehicle for them; I am also glad Honda does not build a vehicle I need to buy.
If and when you have a second child and when your kids get a little older and have friends from school and/or the neighborhood, you'll find it's pretty common to have a need to put 3 or 4 kids in the car. If one of your two has a friend tag along, you're at 3. It's really quite common. And with child seats and boosters, 3 across in the back seat won't work in most cars (even wide cars like our wagon).
BahnBaum
10-09-2007, 06:54 AM
Perhaps TD's getting it because of all the stuff he's dished out over the years on multiple boards about nobody really needing anything more than a 4-door sedan.
:D
It's called a commitment of convenience.
Alex
Perhaps TD's getting it because of all the stuff he's dished out over the years on multiple boards about nobody really needing anything more than a 4-door sedan.
:D
While I'm sure you could find me literally saying otherwise (hell, it's been enough years - I'm sure I've said damn near anything at one time or another), I seem to recall my generally opinion being that it was silly when people start selling their 3-series sedans, coupes or convertibles upon news of their pregnancy with their FIRST child. Selling them to get some massive 7-seat beastmobile because "we're having a baby".
That's silly and it still is.
That said, I am pondering vehicles that are undoubtedly "SUVs" and that come only with an automatic transmission, so I definitely have reassessed some things. If I can bring some joy to your days by offering the opportunity to mock my reconsideration of these vehicles, enjoy.
By expressing interest in the R, TD managed to do two things he *shouldn't* do. The first is to start thinking about the 7-seater rather than avoid it for as long as possible. I mean, this is not some happy daydream when you're speeding along in your 9x7 or s2k. The second, and arguably worse thing is bypass the odyssey/sienna category that seem to work for 99.99% of Americans who need 7-seats (for likely the same reasons as TD).
You missed some earlier posts. We probably won't get one of these 7-seat SUVs either simply because of how they drive - which rules out the minivans as well.
My wife actually cares about drive feel and has historically refused to drive an automatic tranny as well. Our family car is currently a 5-spd Saab 9-5 Aero wagon.
Giving up the tranny and drive feel (the Saab is surprisingly nimble and firm riding for a large wagon) will be tough for her. It's not just me.
We haven't done anything yet. And considering how heavy these things drive, we may not.
But I am struck by the refusal (even here at 'Mudgeons) to acknowledge the need/appeal of a decent riding vehicle with 6-7 person capacity. "Just give up and get an Odyssey" is not the answer.
Eurovan? :dunno:
It probably doesn't drive well, but you can find MT's and it looks unquestionably cool.
Eurovan? :dunno:
It probably doesn't drive well, but you can find MT's and it looks unquestionably cool.
Um, they don't sell it in the US. Haven't for years.
silly when people start selling their 3-series sedans, coupes or convertibles upon news of their pregnancy with their FIRST child. Selling them to get some massive 7-seat beastmobile because "we're having a baby".
That's silly and it still is.
I totally agree. It's amazing how often I have friends or coworkers that do that. Here comes the first child... have to sell one or both perfectly acceptable cars, and buy minivans and/or giant SUVs. To each their own, but I think that's pretty silly too.
If and when you have a second child and when your kids get a little older and have friends from school and/or the neighborhood, you'll find it's pretty common to have a need to put 3 or 4 kids in the car. If one of your two has a friend tag along, you're at 3. It's really quite common. And with child seats and boosters, 3 across in the back seat won't work in most cars (even wide cars like our wagon).
This is true. Even when Keri's mom comes to visit (:ack: :ack:), we have to take 2 cars everywhere because neither of our cars is capable of carrying 6 people. That's an inconvenience. But not having room for the kids' friends actually comes in handy because then I never have to cart them around. Once you have a bus, people know it, and tend to take advantage of it.
I totally agree. It's amazing how often I have friends or coworkers that do that. Here comes the first child... have to sell one or both perfectly acceptable cars, and buy minivans and/or giant SUVs. To each their own, but I think that's pretty silly too.
This is true. Even when Keri's mom comes to visit (:ack: :ack:), we have to take 2 cars everywhere because neither of our cars is capable of carrying 6 people. That's an inconvenience. But not having room for the kids' friends actually comes in handy because then I never have to cart them around. Once you have a bus, people know it, and tend to take advantage of it.
Except for us, it isn't just when people visit. Not only are all of our kids' grandparents withing 20 miles of us, we have local friends with kids where the kids are friends with our kids.
I can totally see needing more than 5 seats in a pinch when you have children. When kids start playing sports, people always end up giving other kids rides.
In my case, I eventaully want a vehicle with more cargo space, so why not pick one that has a pop-up 3 rd row?
BahnBaum
10-09-2007, 11:18 AM
I seem to recall my generally opinion being that it was silly when people start selling their 3-series sedans, coupes or convertibles upon news of their pregnancy with their FIRST child. Selling them to get some massive 7-seat beastmobile because "we're having a baby".
That's silly and it still is.
The truly silly thing is making judgments about people's personal choices and decisions. Unless you are so omniscient that you can make that determination for others or you have somehow been elected the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong you sound foolish making statements like that, IMO.
Freedom of choice is a good thing.
Alex
The truly silly thing is making judgments about people's personal choices and decisions. Unless you are so omniscient that you can make that determination for others or you have somehow been elected the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong you sound foolish making statements like that, IMO.
Freedom of choice is a good thing.
Alex
Yeah, yeah, yeah... understood.
People are completely allowed to do dumb things. I'm sure I've done plenty in other peoples' eyes.
But I'm also free to call out actions that I think are ridiculous. And in one way or another, calling out things we see as ridiculous make up a decent chunk of the posts here.
Two people I know have R-classes... One has three kids, the other two babies. They are both car people (relatively speaking). One drives an RS4 (used to have an R32), the other has an SL55 AMG and a big sedan (a8 to phaeton to s550 4wd)... Neither of them touch the R, their wives drive it. I know the rs4 guy doesn't like it but I can ask the MB buyer to see what he thinks.
I drove the new ML350 at launch and it was reasonably good (for what it is) and were the R close, it might be ok (which I doubt due to length/likely increased weight). Get ready for the most synthetic feeling brakes though.
If I can bring some joy to your days by offering the opportunity to mock my reconsideration of these vehicles, enjoy.
Okay, thanks! :D :lol:
clyde
10-09-2007, 11:58 AM
We don't have 5 kids, yet we seem to make use of the mini van all the time.
I think you hit on a key thing here...when you have it, you tend to use it. Before having it, you tend to make do with what you have...
It's kind of like moving from a one bedroom, 950 sq foot apartment/condo to a 5 bedroom 3,000 sq ft house...Over time, you somehow find a way to fill the house with crap...and once it happens, you don't really know how it happened.
As for TD...he's struck the balance between dogma and pragmaticism in a way that works for him. Life is a series of compromises that we rationalize and justify in whatever manner that allows us to get the best sleep at night. Big deal. That he would consider an R at all, once having made the leap to thinking about such large vehicles, is part and parcel part of his car buying process. TD termed "waffle" in the carmudgeons context. He created and named this subforum, "Perseverators Anonymous." I just found it amusing that the R would rate on his list of serious consideration considering the poor practical/value ratio compared to the alternatives.
But not having room for the kids' friends actually comes in handy because then I never have to cart them around. Once you have a bus, people know it, and tend to take advantage of it.
I prefer to be the bus driver. :dunno: I like spending time with the kid, I typically like the kids we associate with, and I don't have any problem being involved. Of course, I am still new at this. Maybe after 3 got older I would change my mind.
But I am struck by the refusal (even here at 'Mudgeons) to acknowledge the need/appeal of a decent riding vehicle with 6-7 person capacity. "Just give up and get an Odyssey" is not the answer.
I hardly think you're going to take 7 people on a spirited drive. Trying to find one car to do all things is silly.
I prefer to be the bus driver. :dunno: I like spending time with the kid, I typically like the kids we associate with, and I don't have any problem being involved. Of course, I am still new at this. Maybe after 3 got older I would change my mind.
I like spending time with the kids too. A lot. The problem, from my point of view, is when they're a little older, kids tend to get rambunctious around their friends. Driving down the road with 5 or 6 kids getting crazy in the backseat is, well, crazy.
I like spending time with the kids too. A lot. The problem, from my point of view, is when they're a little older, kids tend to get rambunctious around their friends. Driving down the road with 5 or 6 kids getting crazy in the backseat is, well, crazy.
That's why you get the special kids seats that come with the thorazine injection package, and the chloroform headrests.
I hardly think you're going to take 7 people on a spirited drive. Trying to find one car to do all things is silly.
So what is the magic number of seats a decent handling vehcile should max out at? Decent handling, mind you, not full-blown performance car handling.
Many of us have or have had 4-seaters that handle very well. Is that stupid? Or just when you increase the max seating to 6 or 7?
Or is it that you don't drive your 4-seater like that when there are 4 people in the car, only when it's just you or you plus one? But if you got stuck owning a 7-seater due to the frequent need for that level of seating flexibility, why wouldn't that same desire exist to be able to drive spiritedly when it's just you in the car?
So what is the magic number of seats a decent handling vehcile should max out at? Decent handling, mind you, not full-blown performance car handling.
Many of us have or have had 4-seaters that handle very well. Is that stupid? Or just when you increase the max seating to 6 or 7?
Or is it that you don't drive your 4-seater like that when there are 4 people in the car, only when it's just you or you plus one? But if you got stuck owning a 7-seater due to the frequent need for that level of seating flexibility, why wouldn't that same desire exist to be able to drive spiritedly when it's just you in the car?
Honestly, I think it's time to think about a third car. Get a 7 seat minivan of some recent vintage. Possibly a Caravan--I have to think those things depreciate like boulders thrown into the Marianas trench. That way, Mrs. TD can get something more fun and interesting to drive around in most of the time (cough convertible cough), and you and/or her would only have to suffer with an ill-handling leviathan (as all 7 seaters seem to be) on the (presumably relatively uncommon) occasions where you actually need to carry 7 people.
A Caravan + E46 convertible probably would be less than an E320, and would be a much better combo overall.
A Caravan + E46 convertible probably would be less than an E320, and would be a much better combo overall.
Exactly.
BTW, I consider myself pretty solidly slapped at this point.
BTW, I consider myself pretty solidly slapped at this point.
:lol:
What are friends for? :D
BTW, I consider myself pretty solidly slapped at this point.
That's only b/c you are weak! The slapping has barely begun!
lemming
10-09-2007, 09:00 PM
i was working on the extrapolation theory.
C, E and S class vehicles get absolutely creamed for lack of driver involvement, road feel, steering feel and brake pedal feel.
so then, add 1000 more lbs, less power to weight ratio, enormous proportions and dimensions and voila, a Merc Minivan.
good lord, no wonder they've sold so well in the UK (putrid) and in the US (laughable). nothing like a really expensive AMC pacer to spice up the burbs.
3LOU5
10-09-2007, 10:21 PM
Honestly, I think it's time to think about a third car. Get a 7 seat minivan of some recent vintage. Possibly a Caravan--I have to think those things depreciate like boulders thrown into the Marianas trench. That way, Mrs. TD can get something more fun and interesting to drive around in most of the time (cough convertible cough), and you and/or her would only have to suffer with an ill-handling leviathan (as all 7 seaters seem to be) on the (presumably relatively uncommon) occasions where you actually need to carry 7 people.
A Caravan + E46 convertible probably would be less than an E320, and would be a much better combo overall.
Holy crap ! Something JST and I agree with !!
(Although I would avoid owning a Caravan (they are in the opposite ends of the handling spectrum when compared to Odysseys) the same way TD would avoid owning ANY sort of minivan, hehe).
IMO, I don't believe there exists a 6-7 passenger vehicle with decent feel. You might as well give in and become a multi-car family. :)
John V
10-10-2007, 07:25 AM
Holy crap ! Something JST and I agree with !!
I have to say, I would derive some perverse joy from lowering an Odyssey, putting on the widest wheels and tires that fit, and seeing what it could do.
At least that would be cool in a completely goofy way. There is nothing cool about the R-class.
lemming
10-10-2007, 07:36 AM
I have to say, I would derive some perverse joy from lowering an Odyssey, putting on the widest wheels and tires that fit, and seeing what it could do.
At least that would be cool in a completely goofy way. There is nothing cool about the R-class.
just to expound on your thoughts:
with regard to the odyssey, it IS the lowered version....of the MDX (same chassis, remember?). add mass, add AWD-SH and more hp and that's the MDX. a badge engineered minivan.
the R class uses the ML chassis. so despite the different look, ultimately, any dynamic criticism leveled at the ML isn't far off base aimed at the R class as well.
i was working on the extrapolation theory.
C, E and S class vehicles get absolutely creamed for lack of driver involvement, road feel, steering feel and brake pedal feel.
so then, add 1000 more lbs, less power to weight ratio, enormous proportions and dimensions and voila, a Merc Minivan.
good lord, no wonder they've sold so well in the UK (putrid) and in the US (laughable). nothing like a really expensive AMC pacer to spice up the burbs.
I don't get it. Yes, it's a minivan. Yes, I'm sure it handles worse than an E-Class. But it's a minivan - it's not supposed to be a sporty car.
clyde
10-10-2007, 08:20 AM
I have to say, I would derive some perverse joy from lowering an Odyssey, putting on the widest wheels and tires that fit, and seeing what it could do.
At least that would be cool in a completely goofy way. There is nothing cool about the R-class.
Ever hear of "Turbo Mom"? Can't find any pics of hers, but there was a story in the NY Times (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E4DC1531F933A2575BC0A9659C8B 63) a couple years ago.
Consider Charlotte De Vera, a 55-year-old mother. She has spent close to $60,000 turning her plain-vanilla 1995 Honda Odyssey minivan into a screaming yellow dragster, complete with the personalized license plate Turbo Mom. Ms. De Vera, whose son customizes cars in the Los Angeles area, has lowered her minivan and added body panels that make the mom-mobile look a lot racier, to better match the turbocharger that prepares it for drag races, or even Los Angeles freeways.
''My van used to creep up highway on-ramps,'' she said. ''Now the van is an extension of me; it says something about the kind of woman I am.''
Other versions...
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/494000-494999/494884_1_full.jpg
http://images4.fotki.com/v38/photos/1/17179/395294/clubHSshow2003hondaodysse-vi.jpg
http://www.web-xanadu.com/odyssey/1.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/2079000-2079999/2079877_19_full.jpg
http://www.aeroparts.co.jp/sterlingmacblick/lagreat/lagreat_al1_f.jpg
Honestly, I think it's time to think about a third car. Get a 7 seat minivan of some recent vintage. Possibly a Caravan--I have to think those things depreciate like boulders thrown into the Marianas trench. That way, Mrs. TD can get something more fun and interesting to drive around in most of the time (cough convertible cough), and you and/or her would only have to suffer with an ill-handling leviathan (as all 7 seaters seem to be) on the (presumably relatively uncommon) occasions where you actually need to carry 7 people.
A Caravan + E46 convertible probably would be less than an E320, and would be a much better combo overall.
I just thought of another huge benefit to this plan--driving a Caravan every once in a while would reset your dynamic expectations and make the BMW(s?) feel like rocket powered go karts. That's got to be worth something.
I just thought of another huge benefit to this plan--driving a Caravan every once in a while would reset your dynamic expectations and make the BMW(s?) feel like rocket powered go karts. That's got to be worth something.
That is always a huge positive. As I've said before, the V70R makes the 330i feel much better. Nevermind a crappier, slower, poorer-handling vehicle.
Back to your original (self-quoted) point, that is exactly what I've been talking about wrt us eventually getting a largish SUV. Except my wife will probably like driving it more than TD's wife would.
Roomy vehicles are great to have (be it towing or cargo and/or passenger space), but I would rather not deal with the negatives they bring on a daily basis. So if you can swing having it just for specific duties, then it's a win-win.
wdc330i
10-10-2007, 10:16 AM
BTW, I consider myself pretty solidly slapped at this point.
I'm not slapping you.
All our opinions and needs evolve over time. Add a child, add a dog, add a live-in parent-- all these changes can alter the decisionmaking landscape radically. If we never changed, what kind of human beings would we be?
At any rate, I sympathize because, as everyone knows, my thinking is going through the same evolution. And for many of us, the idea of three cars, three insurance coverages, and three complex pieces of machinery to maintain is abhorrent. Not to mention the whole parking thing. Layer on top of that our natural, internal battle between practical and fun and there you have the essence of Perseverators Anonymous.
Two kids, a dog, and lots of neighbor friends with kids who are friends with our kids. This prompts the need for more space.
But financially, we are simply not doing three cars. And my wife wants to avoid driving a sloppy, floaty boat as much as I would. She'd love to have a manual tranny too, but realizes that simply isn't happening.
The kids and she were out of town last weekend, so no opportunity for test drives. This weekend I hope to get out and have us drive the R, the Mazda CX-9 (again for me, first time for her), the MDX (again, a repeat drive for me, first time for her) and the Volvo XC-90 (which I assume will suck, but the prices on leftover '07s are pretty low - so it's worth checking out).
And I guess we'll drive an Odyssey and Pilot for comparison purposes. The Odyssey is the only pure minivan we'd consider considering. The rest are so blatantly soul-crushing that they are simply not options.
But financially, we are simply not doing three cars.
But if you're considering an R, you could easily spend LESS on 3 cars by following JST's advice, no?
I'd be surprised if anything you drive would perform better than the CX-9. (Okay, I haven't driven one, but from what I've read they're not too bad)
But if you're considering an R, you could easily spend LESS on 3 cars by following JST's advice, no?
I'd be surprised if anything you drive would perform better than the CX-9. (Okay, I haven't driven one, but from what I've read they're not too bad)
Used Rs are cheap. They depreciate like bricks.
It's pretty easy to find a very low mileage R350 for under $40K.
I too have heard that the CX-9 is pretty much as good as it gets feel-wise in this class. And it wasn't bad. It just felt VERY heavy and slow. But it wasn't all that floaty and the ride was firm (test drove the version w/ 20s). It's just hard to mask 4500 lbs all that effectively - which is likely to be the case with any of them.
Used Rs are cheap. They depreciate like bricks.
It's pretty easy to find a very low mileage R350 for under $40K.
I too have heard that the CX-9 is pretty much as good as it gets feel-wise in this class. And it wasn't bad. It just felt VERY heavy and slow. But it wasn't all that floaty and the ride was firm (test drove the version w/ 20s). It's just hard to mask 4500 lbs all that effectively - which is likely to be the case with any of them.
I'm thinking like a 15K minivan.
Here's an 07 Caravan for 14K.
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNumber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfield=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-%7CE-ALL%7CM-_12_%7CB-16000%7CH-%7CD-_127_%7CN-N%7CR-30%7CI-1%7CP-PRICE+descending%7CQ-descending%7CX-popular%7CZ-22314&aff=national&paId=244968224&recnum=19&leadExists=true
Or a better equipped 04 for 12.
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNumber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfield=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-%7CE-ALL%7CM-_12_%7CB-16000%7CH-%7CD-_127_%7CN-N%7CR-30%7CI-1%7CP-PRICE+descending%7CQ-descending%7CX-popular%7CZ-22314&aff=national&paId=240344478&recnum=26&leadExists=true
That leaves plenty of money for this 1999 M3 convertible:
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNumber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfield=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-%7CE-ALL%7CM-_5_%7CH-%7CD-_47_%7CN-N%7CR-500%7CI-1%7CP-PRICE+descending%7CQ-descending%7CY-_1999-1998_%7CX-popular%7CZ-22314&aff=national&paId=233889178&recnum=2&leadExists=true
I have to tell you, if the choice were a) drive a vehicle that sucks all the time, or b) drive a vehicle that really, really sucks some of the time and a vehicle that kicks ass the rest, I'd go with (b).
Drive a suburban with the bigger engine option. Left overs for almost free, I am sure. It drives better than the mini-van in just about all respects and gets similar mileage. It is less user friendly.
I know the odysey is the "in" van, but not checking out comparably priced Sienas is silly. They are pretty equivalent in features, but you might find features in one you like more than the other. Ignoring the caravan might be silly too depending on your intended use. Sto-n-go is really cool (but it does make the seats suck - not such a big deal if kid seats are going there). Of course, the rest of the car is horrible.
Drive a suburban with the bigger engine option. Left overs for almost free, I am sure. It drives better than the mini-van in just about all respects and gets similar mileage. It is less user friendly.
I know the odysey is the "in" van, but not checking out comparably priced Sienas is silly. They are pretty equivalent in features, but you might find features in one you like more than the other. Ignoring the caravan might be silly too depending on your intended use. Sto-n-go is really cool (but it does make the seats suck - not such a big deal if kid seats are going there). Of course, the rest of the car is horrible.
I'd take the bus before I'd buy a Toyota. I just have such a strong irrational distaste for Toyota that it's simply not an option.
That leaves plenty of money for this 1999 M3 convertible:
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=22&pageNumber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfield=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-%7CE-ALL%7CM-_5_%7CH-%7CD-_47_%7CN-N%7CR-500%7CI-1%7CP-PRICE+descending%7CQ-descending%7CY-_1999-1998_%7CX-popular%7CZ-22314&aff=national&paId=233889178&recnum=2&leadExists=true
That might as well be my car. =P
Which I may sell soon.
I agree with the GM SUV suggestion but a Tahoe would be my choice.
clyde
10-10-2007, 01:16 PM
The GMT-900s are nice for what they are, but they still drive like trucks. Nice trucks, but trucks nonetheless.
And I'm with JST...for the budget being described, 3 vehicles are certainly an option (even after taking in adidtional insurance/registration expenses into account). If they aren't an option, it can only be a mental objection.
The kids and she were out of town last weekend, so no opportunity for test drives. This weekend I hope to get out and have us drive the R, the Mazda CX-9 (again for me, first time for her), the MDX (again, a repeat drive for me, first time for her) and the Volvo XC-90 (which I assume will suck, but the prices on leftover '07s are pretty low - so it's worth checking out).
And I guess we'll drive an Odyssey and Pilot for comparison purposes.
I know you would not consider a Toyota, but if you're going to drive the MDX and Pilot, you really should drive the 4Runner too. Unlike the Honda offerings, the 4Runner is a real truck with a real frame, has a RWD layout with a 60/40 torque split (rear bias), and 23 MPG V8. It's plenty of engine for that vehicle, and I think you'd be surprised at how little it costs to buy compared to the MDX and Pilot. It's not going to be great as far as "feel" (neither are the Hondas), and it probably has a softer ride, but that too can be fixed with aftermarket shocks. Just something to chew on.
I know you would not consider a Toyota, but if you're going to drive the MDX and Pilot, you really should drive the 4Runner too. Unlike the Honda offerings, the 4Runner is a real truck with a real frame, has a RWD layout with a 60/40 torque split (rear bias), and 23 MPG V8. It's plenty of engine for that vehicle, and I think you'd be surprised at how little it costs to buy compared to the MDX and Pilot. It's not going to be great as far as "feel" (neither are the Hondas), and it probably has a softer ride, but that too can be fixed with aftermarket shocks. Just something to chew on.
3 rows in a 4Runner?
wdc330i
10-10-2007, 02:58 PM
I know you would not consider a Toyota, but if you're going to drive the MDX and Pilot, you really should drive the 4Runner too. Unlike the Honda offerings, the 4Runner is a real truck with a real frame, has a RWD layout with a 60/40 torque split (rear bias), and 23 MPG V8. It's plenty of engine for that vehicle, and I think you'd be surprised at how little it costs to buy compared to the MDX and Pilot. It's not going to be great as far as "feel" (neither are the Hondas), and it probably has a softer ride, but that too can be fixed with aftermarket shocks. Just something to chew on.
It's funny. Four years ago, when we were simply looking for a one-dog toter and one-baby schlepper, we test drove the 4Runner, the XC90, the V70, the Highlander, and the Pilot. The 4Runner was the best of the lot. But, then we drove the 325xiT and remembered how much fun you can have driving. Bought the BMW wagon.
3 rows in a 4Runner?
Yep. Not all come with the 3rd row though. Based on what I've seen, the 3rd row is about the same size as what's in the Hondas, and probably the Mazda too.
wdc330i
10-10-2007, 03:00 PM
Yep. Not all come with the 3rd row though. Based on what I've seen, the 3rd row is about the same size as what's in the Hondas, and probably the Mazda too.
Hmmm. Like TD I also share an irrational hatred for Toyota products, but somehow that doesn't apply to the 4Runner or the trucks. That's the great thing about being irrational.
It's funny. Four years ago, when we were simply looking for a one-dog toter and one-baby schlepper, we test drove the 4Runner, the XC90, the V70, the Highlander, and the Pilot. The 4Runner was the best of the lot. But, then we drove the 325xiT and remembered how much fun you can have driving. Bought the BMW wagon.
I think kid age makes a difference. When they're small, you only worry about schlepping them around. When they get older, they make friends (hopefully) and you find yourself needed more people space.
Yep. Not all come with the 3rd row though. Based on what I've seen, the 3rd row is about the same size as what's in the Hondas, and probably the Mazda too.
I just priced one and broke $43K. Ugh!
I never again want to hear people claiming I must be rich because I drive a BMW.
wdc330i
10-10-2007, 03:07 PM
I think kid age makes a difference. When they're small, you only worry about schlepping them around. When they get older, they make friends (hopefully) and you find yourself needed more people space.
I know that day will come and it will only add to the head count. Maybe we just have to give up the mindset that each car purchase will get us through the next 10 years.
Although we're doing okay with my 330i. Six years next spring. But I already have the itch for a new 3 or 1 series cabrio. Somehow that prospective indulgence makes swapping out the 5 for something cheaper and more spacious palatable (at least in theory).
wdc330i
10-10-2007, 03:08 PM
I just priced one and broke $43K. Ugh!
I never again want to hear people claiming I must be rich because I drive a BMW.
Goodness! That's real car money.
I just priced one and broke $43K. Ugh!
$43? What kind of options did you put on it? When the current vehicle came out in 2003, it started at $27K. I figured that it couldn't have gone up too much since then.
$43? What kind of options did you put on it? When the current vehicle came out in 2003, it started at $27K. I figured that it couldn't have gone up too much since then.
The big engine and the package that actually included a moonroof. That's it.
that's MSRP though, right? You can probably get them for $8000 under or somesuch.
that's MSRP though, right? You can probably get them for $8000 under or somesuch.
No idea. Can you?
wdc330i
10-10-2007, 04:33 PM
How do you specify the third row? Or is it standard in all but the Sport model? It was unclear on the Web site.
The big engine and the package that actually included a moonroof. That's it.
Holy crap.
4Runner sport w/ 4x4 and V8 starts at $35,100. And Toyota loves to jack prices up, and then give you big discounts to make it seem like you're getting a deal.
How do you specify the third row? Or is it standard in all but the Sport model? It was unclear on the Web site.
Looks like you can only get the 3rd row on the SR5 and Limited. Not sure what's different on the sport edition that wouldn't allow a 3rd row.
clyde
10-10-2007, 07:10 PM
pssst... stukabot
http://forums.carmudgeons.com/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif :thumbup:
lemming
10-10-2007, 07:15 PM
i know i cannot begin to understand your transportation needs (anyone here with kids and the need to sponsor playgroups or whatever the hell it is you people do) --but the R class to me is like a $2000 quartz watch or "designer" sneakers.
both of those concepts reek of effete-ism and uninformed decisionmaking given what else is in the marketplace at various pricepoints to move 7 people in a pinch.
if you have two of those already, heck, the R class sounds perfect.
THe Eurovan was either discontinued or at least not imported long ago. They only brought it over for like 3 years. It's one of the reasons they hold their value at sticker like prices.
But it's not a great car for a people hauler. It's a great car for the beach (has a shower built into the outside) and as an camper and stuff, but it's not the best people hauler and I doubt it will fit seven comfortably. (I have a friend that has one.) THey are thinking about swapping it for an odysey b/c the odysey has blue tooth or satelite radio or whatever it was missing last year now and it has an air conditioner that actually cools the car.
wdc330i
10-10-2007, 07:56 PM
THe Eurovan was either discontinued or at least not imported long ago. They only brought it over for like 3 years. It's one of the reasons they hold their value at sticker like prices.
But it's not a great car for a people hauler. It's a great car for the beach (has a shower built into the outside) and as an camper and stuff, but it's not the best people hauler and I doubt it will fit seven comfortably. (I have a friend that has one.) THey are thinking about swapping it for an odysey b/c the odysey has blue tooth or satelite radio or whatever it was missing last year now and it has an air conditioner that actually cools the car.
Sounds like the old VW bus/campers! I saw a lime green one in Venice, CA, last week.
THe Eurovan was either discontinued or at least not imported long ago. They only brought it over for like 3 years. It's one of the reasons they hold their value at sticker like prices.
But it's not a great car for a people hauler. It's a great car for the beach (has a shower built into the outside) and as an camper and stuff, but it's not the best people hauler and I doubt it will fit seven comfortably. (I have a friend that has one.) THey are thinking about swapping it for an odysey b/c the odysey has blue tooth or satelite radio or whatever it was missing last year now and it has an air conditioner that actually cools the car.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?num_records=25&search_lang=en&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&search_type=both&distance=0&address=20850&marketZipError=false&style_flag=1&make=VOLKS&model=EUROVAN&make2=&start_year=1981&end_year=2008&min_price=&max_price=&transmission=Manual&engine=&drive=&doors=&fuel=&max_mileage=&color=&keywords_display=&sort_type=priceDESC&body_code=0&certified=&advanced=y&default_sort=priceDESC&awsp=false&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&rdpage=sip
It looks like all of the '95s are campers, but not all of the '93s.
SARAFIL
10-10-2007, 08:22 PM
The CX-9 seems to get the best reviews in terms of driving dynamics.
Have you considered the new GM SUV's (Acadia, Outlook)? They're unibody so they've got much better driving characteristics than the truck-based SUVs and they've gotten good reviews for their space and utility, but they also say the CX-9 is better in terms of driving characteristics. I don't know if it is too big for you, but might be worth at least reading up on a bit.
The CX-9 seems to get the best reviews in terms of driving dynamics.
Have you considered the new GM SUV's (Acadia, Outlook)? They're unibody so they've got much better driving characteristics than the truck-based SUVs and they've gotten good reviews for their space and utility, but they also say the CX-9 is better in terms of driving characteristics. I don't know if it is too big for you, but might be worth at least reading up on a bit.
I commented on the Outlook in another thread. I did not drive one but sitting in one was enough to rule it out. The interior materials are CHEAP. Awful hard plastics that flex under even slight pressure.
For the same money, the materials in the CX-9 are at least on par with those in my E90 (in other words, acceptably cheap).
At the risk of getting smacked again, anyone with any thoughts re: the Audi Q7?
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=229530689
SARAFIL
10-10-2007, 08:32 PM
At the risk of getting smacked again, anyone with any thoughts re: the Audi Q7?
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=229530689
other than being ugly...
the 3rd seat is not much different from what you'd find in an X5.
other than being ugly...
the 3rd seat is not much different from what you'd find in an X5.
Yeah but even the cheapest '07 X5 is WAY more $$$$.
Oh, and the size of the third row doesn't matter that much, just it's existence.
wdc330i
10-10-2007, 08:42 PM
At the risk of getting smacked again, anyone with any thoughts re: the Audi Q7?
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=229530689
I saw these all over LA last week. Not bad looking, at least. But definitely BIG.
lemming
10-10-2007, 08:45 PM
Yeah but even the cheapest '07 X5 is WAY more $$$$.
Oh, and the size of the third row doesn't matter that much, just it's existence.
well, if you trace the lineage of the Q7.....it's a toureg or a cayenne. it's likely the nicest of the three, also.
the issue with the R-class is that it's a masquerading minivan on an ML/GL chassis. no better handling. no better fuel economy. what IS the deal?
lemming
10-10-2007, 09:55 PM
just read.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=115902
At the risk of getting smacked again, anyone with any thoughts re: the Audi Q7?
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=229530689
I drove it at its launch too - and highly disliked it. All that I dislike about audi and then some... The suvs I've found 'ok' were the ML350 (but really nasty brakes) and the CX7 (quite ok actually)... So I can't imagine there's any hope for the R or the GL, but the CX9 big brother stands a chance.
wdc330i
10-11-2007, 08:57 AM
just read.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=115902
Interesting about the parking lot encounters. That strikes me as one of the situations where I would hate driving anything bigger than my 3. Our tight parking lots in the DC-area are a nightmare. And there are no pedestrian walkways--except at the College Park Ikea. Americans have a lot to learn in this department.
I drove it at its launch too - and highly disliked it. All that I dislike about audi and then some... The suvs I've found 'ok' were the ML350 (but really nasty brakes) and the CX7 (quite ok actually)... So I can't imagine there's any hope for the R or the GL, but the CX9 big brother stands a chance.
Yeah The ML was nice. So was the CX-7. But they all suck compared to even a decent wagon. Which is why we ended up with the V70R.
Yeah The ML was nice. So was the CX-7. But they all suck compared to even a decent wagon. Which is why we ended up with the V70R.
See the LLN bot for the possible import of the G8 wagon. =)
See the LLN bot for the possible import of the G8 wagon. =)
Just to make the point I made in the other thread: The Taurus X bears investigation. It's huge inside, is somewhat lower and lighter than many of its SUV like competitors, is relatively cheap, drives reasonably well, and has a lot of seats. It's actually pretty unique in terms of attributes; I can't think of another vehicle that is quite the same.
I drove one quite a bit when it was the Freestyle, and while it wasn't a sports car it was pleasant enough. Felt like a Volvo, actually, which is what big chunks of it are. My complaint was the lack of power and the weird CVT, both of which have been addressed in the 08 model. The interior materials aren't great, but they aren't too bad in black.
TD you're in luck...the most recent C&D mag has a mini-van comparison test.
TD you're in luck...the most recent C&D mag has a mini-van comparison test.
:stfu:
John V
10-11-2007, 02:56 PM
TD you're in luck...the most recent C&D mag has a mini-van comparison test.
Did they compare the Mercedes version? You know, the one that's heavier, twice the cost, and gets shitty fuel mileage?
But wait: It's a Mercedes! :eek: RRRRIIIICH!
3LOU5
10-11-2007, 08:44 PM
I just thought of another huge benefit to this plan--driving a Caravan every once in a while would reset your dynamic expectations and make the BMW(s?) feel like rocket powered go karts. That's got to be worth something.
There is definite truth to this statement.
That is what I love about my '94 Silverado. The steering and handling characteristics are so sloppy that when I hop back in my BMW, I feel that it is a totally different car than what I am accustomed to. Very Elise-like.
Too damn bad that the feeling is only temporary.... :o
3LOU5
10-11-2007, 09:07 PM
..... The rest are so blatantly soul-crushing that they are simply not options.
This statement intrigues me. Isn't carting around rambunctious kids in a minivan and "soul-crushing" completely synonymous with each other? :eeps:
The Odyssey is the only pure minivan we'd consider considering.
Dude, if you somehow, some way end up in an Odyssey, I will......I will.....gee, it's just too shocking, I don't know what the hell I'm going to do. :lol:
wdc330i
10-12-2007, 10:05 AM
This statement intrigues me. Isn't carting around rambunctious kids in a minivan and "soul-crushing" completely synonymous with each other? :eeps:
Dude, if you somehow, some way end up in an Odyssey, I will......I will.....gee, it's just too shocking, I don't know what the hell I'm going to do. :lol:
I'm sure the Odyssey drives better (I've never driven one). But I'll have to admit that I think the Sienna is better looking--for what it is.
Tom .. .this is the funniest thread ever ... picture this and read it in my friends voice - he is the voice over guy and does 90% of the discovery channel and movie voice over's...
time frame (voice goes deep and lot's of questioning in it) : many years ago and the thought arrives in the mind ... TD getting a fwd car ... nah ... can never happen ... just read his posts he hates 'em ... Saab comes into the picture ...
Fast forward a number of years ... TD get's a SUV or Minivan ... come on ... we all know it can't happen ... it never will happen ... tom will not give in .... Tom refuses to allow it to happen ... holy cr*p it's 2007 going into 2008 soon ... Tom might get one, tom looks ... tom drive's ... tom gets ------
to be continued at a theatre near you ...
Hate to disappoint you, but it's unlikely to happen.
clyde
10-13-2007, 07:00 PM
I'm looking forward to when TD gets fed up with the management here and bails to start up the R Class Lovers Forum with Richbrad.
I'm looking forward to when TD gets fed up with the management here and bails to start up the R Class Lovers Forum with Richbrad.:flipoff:
clyde
10-13-2007, 07:40 PM
i just couldn't wait any longer.
Sorry. :D
I'm looking forward to when TD gets fed up with the management here and bails to start up the R Class Lovers Forum with Richbrad.
:lol:
Hate to disappoint you, but it's unlikely to happen.
I give you credit for saying 'unlikely' instead of 'never'
Unfortunately nowadays it's tough not to have a car where 7 seats are needed as the kids get older.
I have 3 kids and whenever friends come along (and it is a LOT more then I ever thought) you need at least another seat or two ... plus with car pooling back and forth to gymnastics, dance, baseball, etc. I can't see not having one.
I saw an r500 on the way in this morning with a license plate frame that said something like "make way for Ms. Teen Poway" or some ridiculous phrase. The "make way for me b/c I am a beauty show queen" concept made me laugh.
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