View Full Version : Tesla Model X -- this is it
Configurator just launched for the Signature reservation holders, apparently.
http://www.TeslaMotorsClub.com/showthread.php?t=52766
Of note--check out the windshield glass, which has no crossbar between the a pillars. This had been rumored for a while but it's kind of surprising to me that they did this.
Configurator just launched for the Signature reservation holders, apparently.
http://www.TeslaMotorsClub.com/showthread.php?t=52766
Of note--check out the windshield glass, which has no crossbar between the a pillars. This had been rumored for a while but it's kind of surprising to me that they did this.
A couple of further thoughts--
-Everyone is freaking out trying to figure out how (and if) the second row seats fold. Also, the fairly straightforward design of the 2nd row doesn't really jibe with some comments Musk made about how awesome the 2nd row of seats would be. Who knows what any of that means.
-The giant windshield is really, really dumb.
-Range on the car pictured in the thread over there is 240 miles; the specs suggest it has the same drivetrain as the Model S P90D, which gets 253 miles. Physics is a bitch.
-Towing capacity is 5000 lbs, though what the range is with a full load is anyone's guess. See above, re: physics being a bitch.
So have any of the people adamant that the pre-production spy shots weren't the final design eaten crow yet?
I saw the thread earlier and skimmed a few of the pics (but didn't see interior ones yet).
Range being only 13 miles less than the P90D isn't surprising, and really isn't all that bad. Certainly explains the jump to the 70 and 90 batteries (from 60 and 85). I bet the S85 and S85D won't be around much longer...
I noticed that the seats are now heated and cooled. Wonder if the S will get a spec bump for that seat soon?
clyde
09-01-2015, 10:35 AM
Of note--check out the windshield glass, which has no crossbar between the a pillars. This had been rumored for a while but it's kind of surprising to me that they did this.
That's weird.
I liked the stick figure drawings speculating on how the seats fold. I was disappointed that no one has yet posted on showing seats in a sex like configuration. Some were unintentionally close, but no cigar.
"Software actively monitors trailer sway and adjusts wheel braking as needed."
This was new to me. A little Google tells me this is not a new thing. Looks like Ford has been offering an electronic sway control on their trucks, SUVs and CUVs for a few years.
When I first saw the text in the Tesla screenshot, I thought it also replaced a brake controller (which would make perfect sense) and automatically applied trailer brakes (perhaps with selective tow vehicle braking) when it sensed a sway condition. Apparently, not, at least not the Ford system. It only applies selective braking to the tow vehicle. That sounds kind of scary because when a trailer starts swaying, you want to slow the trailer down relative to the tow vehicle. And, of course, with the system, there is no mechanical resistance to sway, either.
Maybe I'm still just excessive gunshy after a sway incident on my first tow that scared the living fuck out of me, made JV throw up his arms and say, "that's it," like we were all going to die, and made Mrs. JV-to-be scream her head off in the back seat.
Nick M3
09-01-2015, 10:49 AM
Selective braking will calm the oscillation at the hitch. It's something that you can't do with control inputs, but the vehicle can. Done this way, you can (theoretically) stop sway before it gets to the point where you need to pull the trailer brakes. Pulling the trailer brake is a brute force solution, albeit one that works well.
Those stick drawings are awesome, the sun visor implementation/operation is not.
Overall it's like a rounder Aztek.
I've been saying for some time that the Aztek was ahead of its time.
Not that I'd buy one today. But the market has met it, both in terms of more daring (and ugly) styling as well as the size/functionality thing.
clyde
09-01-2015, 11:40 AM
Selective braking will calm the oscillation at the hitch. It's something that you can't do with control inputs, but the vehicle can. Done this way, you can (theoretically) stop sway before it gets to the point where you need to pull the trailer brakes. Pulling the trailer brake is a brute force solution, albeit one that works well.
I understand the theory. I just have some resistance to "good theory that works well on paper" versus real world tried and true "works well in the real world" when it comes to preventing catastrophic failure.
Then again, in that sway incident I had, I couldn't take my hand off the wheel to hit the brake controller by the time it got that bad. And I'd mounted the brake controller in a location that turned out to be not nearly as good as I initially thought.
If I had a hitch with load balancing and sway control it never would have happened. I don't know if software would have been able to keep it from happening. In theory, it should have, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it at this point. :dunno:
So have any of the people adamant that the pre-production spy shots weren't the final design eaten crow yet?
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/44793-Model-X-Mule-Sightings/page317
I understand the theory. I just have some resistance to "good theory that works well on paper" versus real world tried and true "works well in the real world" when it comes to preventing catastrophic failure.
Then again, in that sway incident I had, I couldn't take my hand off the wheel to hit the brake controller by the time it got that bad. And I'd mounted the brake controller in a location that turned out to be not nearly as good as I initially thought.
If I had a hitch with load balancing and sway control it never would have happened. I don't know if software would have been able to keep it from happening. In theory, it should have, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it at this point. :dunno:
I'm obviously not a vehicle dynamics expert, but I don't see why controlling/stopping trailer oscillation would be that much more difficult than any other DSC type implementation. I mean, if Porsche can keep a 911 pointed in the right direction...
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/44793-Model-X-Mule-Sightings/page317
:lol:
Denial isn't a river in Egypt....
geesh...
John V
09-01-2015, 12:30 PM
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/44793-Model-X-Mule-Sightings/page317
I'm obviously not a vehicle dynamics expert, but I don't see why controlling/stopping trailer oscillation would be that much more difficult than any other DSC type implementation. I mean, if Porsche can keep a 911 pointed in the right direction...
I bet having independent control over each of the trailer's wheel brakes would get you there easier than anything, but trailer brakes aren't set up this way.
Quelling the oscillations before they get bad enough that physics overwhelms the ability to fix the problem sounds doable and a good thing. But ultimately trailer sway is like a dog growling before it bites you. You don't train a dog to not growl. You train it to not bite. As Clyde and I learned (fortunately before things went tits up), fix the weight distribution problems and you won't have trailer sway, so long as your rig has enough suspension stiffness and wheelbase to handle the load.
Towing an open trailer roughly cuts the mileage of a typical vehicle by 1/3 to 1/2 in my experience. So I'd expect 140-ish miles of range out of the Model X? Not enough to do any long distance towing for sure, but useful for in-town trips.
I'm obviously not a vehicle dynamics expert, but I don't see why controlling/stopping trailer oscillation would be that much more difficult than any other DSC type implementation. I mean, if Porsche can keep a 911 pointed in the right direction...
I would think from a process standpoint, controlling it in the car makes it easier.
How many trailers have individually operated brakes? Can the brake controller signal just one side at a time? Are trailer brakes just on/off, or is there variable pressure?
John V
09-01-2015, 12:38 PM
I would think from a process standpoint, controlling it in the car makes it easier.
How many trailers have individually operated brakes? Can the brake controller signal just one side at a time? Are trailer brakes just on/off, or is there variable pressure?
No trailers I know of have the ability to control each brake individually.
They are variable force brakes. The force control implementation depends on the type of brakes and the type of controller. Most of us that do a lot of towing have controllers that are linked to the vehicle's braking system and apply an algorithm based on brake pedal position, vehicle deceleration rate and user-adjustable gain / sensitivity.
I am very underwhelmed with this car, stylistically. Even the Model S I find attractive but not distinctive.
clyde
09-01-2015, 03:52 PM
I would think from a process standpoint, controlling it in the car makes it easier.
How many trailers have individually operated brakes? Can the brake controller signal just one side at a time? Are trailer brakes just on/off, or is there variable pressure?
In addition to what John described, the driver can also use those controller to initiate braking and/or apply more braking force than default by pushing a lever, twisting a dial or something like that.
When sway starts, the trailer is accelerating relative to the tow vehicle (with that force applying itself laterally). The way you stop the sway is to halt the acceleration and bring the tow vehicle and trailer to the same speeds. With "dumb" setups, you can usually give the tow vehicle a burst of throttle to settle things, but if it doesn't work, it can get a lot worse very quickly. Alternatively, you can apply the trailer brakes to slow the trailer relative to the tow vehicle. That usually works, but it's more of a pain in the ass and if you don't do it soon enough, you may not be able to take your hand off the wheel to operate the controller.
There are also mechanical sway control systems you can install that are springs that attach to the hitch and trailer. These damp the sway motions before they start. They work like fucking gangbusters, but a lot of people don't like using them because they can be kinda pricey and really fucking noisy (especially when turning tightly at very low speed where they get a little bound up and release).
The way I'd describe how these new smart systems work (without checking and just guessing...so I'm completely talking out of my ass, but it's how I understand the theory at face value) is by selectively braking the tow vehicle wheels it changes the yaw of the tow vehicle just enough to match and functionally damp the swaying motion.
The mechanical spring system works by preventing the sway condition. The smart system works by arresting the sway motion after it starts. That's the part that scares me. It may be an unreasonable fear, but it's there and I'd expect it to stay until these smart systems prove themselves to be as reliable as the dumb ones.
clyde
09-01-2015, 03:58 PM
I don't see why controlling/stopping trailer oscillation would be that much more difficult than any other DSC type implementation. I mean, if Porsche can keep a 911 pointed in the right direction...
DSC won't keep you from sliding off an icy or oiled corner. Physics win at some point.
Just learning of it today and not looking into it much, the concept seems sound and reasonable, but still gives me a bit of pause only first learning of it about 8 hours ago and not having put much more thought into it than writing these posts. :dunno:
I haven't towed a trailer since '93 or so... But my family did a good amount of towing when I was a kid, but that was '70s technology...
Sounds like brake controls have advanced since then. The last time I towed (while it was in '93, it was with a mid-80s Suburban), I remember just plugging in the trailer, checking the lights and brakes, and going on my way...
John V
09-02-2015, 07:34 AM
I haven't towed a trailer since '93 or so... But my family did a good amount of towing when I was a kid, but that was '70s technology...
Probably surge brakes on the trailer. Or no brakes. :eeps:
Sounds like brake controls have advanced since then. The last time I towed (while it was in '93, it was with a mid-80s Suburban), I remember just plugging in the trailer, checking the lights and brakes, and going on my way...
The controllers have gotten better but the hardware is mostly the same, which is kinda scary. It's always been a bit interesting to me that there is no driver testing for towing. It's one of those things where if you do your research and have a little mechanical knowledge you should be OK. Most of the time. But if you screw up just a little bit (especially if you're using something that really shouldn't be towing much weight, like a Model X ;)) things can get really bad really fast.
clyde
09-02-2015, 08:27 AM
The controllers have gotten better but the hardware is mostly the same, which is kinda scary. It's always been a bit interesting to me that there is no driver testing for towing. It's one of those things where if you do your research and have a little mechanical knowledge you should be OK. Most of the time. But if you screw up just a little bit (especially if you're using something that really shouldn't be towing much weight, like a Model X ;)) things can get really bad really fast.
Before we started towing, I had a healthy respect for it. I'd see all these people that looked like idiots towing stuff in ways that looked dumb and/or unsafe and think "If they can do it without incident." Less than 50 miles into our first tow, we nearly did this.
Twwge3tH7C8
Before it happened, there were a couple small sway motions that were solved immediately with a tap of the throttle. With experience, I would have known the way it felt was wrong. But only having read and not actually had any training, what I was feeling seemed to be pretty much in line with my expectations. I was wrong.
After it happened, I pulled over, we sat silent for a couple minutes, got out, pulled the car forward on the trailer a few inches and saw/heard/felt the weight shift forward. No problems the rest of the way. As soon as we got home, I ordered the fancy load balancing & sway control hitch with the best reputation as soon as we got home.
Add inspections or maintenance requirements for the trailers. Fucked up tires, bad bearings, failed wiring and lights, etc.
Plus, there's the simpler stuff that may not be directly safety related, but in many situations could be or lead to a very unsafe condition...like backing up and backing up and turning. It's not a hard skill to develop, but it takes some effort and you have to be able to switch things in your brain to do it efficiently and quickly.
clyde
09-03-2015, 12:57 PM
I bet having independent control over each of the trailer's wheel brakes would get you there easier than anything, but trailer brakes aren't set up this way.
http://www.direclink.com/swaycontrol.html
They have a kit that gives independent left/right braking on a trailer hooked up to a sensor looking for sway events.
Video from Mr. Truck trying it out on a Ford in three situations where the trailer is intentionally loaded wrong to give about 0 tongue weight, the truck's software sway control only, the trailer module sway control only, and both working together.
The truck only solution looks better than nothing (and may even suggest that it would work pretty well with a trailer loaded reasonably well, but a little off), but mostly looks like what I imagined. Maybe a little worse.
The trailer only solution looked pretty good.
The combo looked pretty good, too, but a little different.
If I ever tow again, I expect I'll still use springs. Maybe with something like this on the trailer. And, if it's a truck with the on board stuff, probably that, too.
Yes, that's probably excessive.
Anyway, the video is a little long (and kind of boring). And it was snowing very lightly. On the dragstrip where they tested. Intentionally invoking sway close to the walls.
cVlXlbU38zA
Back to Model X... JST: are you watching the live stream?
Looks like Tesla was able to keep the lack of nosecone hidden from the Mule thread.. Not sure if I like the look or not.
Just finished the live stream. I am an idiot. Time to go to bed.
I just finished it too...
I want to see one in person before I decide if I like the front or not.
Auto opening front door is just weird. Hitch rack is pretty cool.
Nick M3
09-30-2015, 06:06 AM
The reality, though, Clyde, is that literally the only thing that you need is to verify that that the trailer is loaded properly. And all you need for that is a vague notion of how much the hitch should drop at the correct tongue weight.
You're never going to load a trailer without knowing the tongue weight again, so throwing systems at the thing that you have learned not to do seems excessive.
John V
09-30-2015, 06:59 AM
One of the reasons I bought a 3/4 ton was so I never had to deal with weight distribution bars or sway control again. I have not regretted this decision.
clyde
09-30-2015, 09:36 AM
The reality, though, Clyde, is that literally the only thing that you need is to verify that that the trailer is loaded properly. And all you need for that is a vague notion of how much the hitch should drop at the correct tongue weight.
You're never going to load a trailer without knowing the tongue weight again, so throwing systems at the thing that you have learned not to do seems excessive.
Self-adjusting airbags in the rear make it tough to judge drop. Ask me how I know.
I didn't think the Equalizer hitch was "excessive," at least in terms of effort after initial setup. Kind of expensive, maybe, but not excessive.
Buying a 3/4 ton truck to be used only for towing and other real truck tasks seems considerably more excessive and expensive than a $500 hitch (then, $800 now :yikes: ) to go on a 1/2 ton SUV that also serves as a daily commuting, errand running, family hauling, people mover and that happens to tow just fine when properly equipped.
Nick M3
09-30-2015, 10:11 AM
Self-adjusting airbags in the rear make it tough to judge drop. Ask me how I know.
I didn't think the Equalizer hitch was "excessive," at least in terms of effort after initial setup. Kind of expensive, maybe, but not excessive.
Buying a 3/4 ton truck to be used only for towing and other real truck tasks seems considerably more excessive and expensive than a $500 hitch (then, $800 now :yikes: ) to go on a 1/2 ton SUV that also serves as a daily commuting, errand running, family hauling, people mover and that happens to tow just fine when properly equipped.
Honestly, if that's the issue, i'd say the money would be better spent on a set of scales. :p
John V
09-30-2015, 11:28 AM
Self-adjusting airbags in the rear make it tough to judge drop. Ask me how I know.
I didn't think the Equalizer hitch was "excessive," at least in terms of effort after initial setup. Kind of expensive, maybe, but not excessive.
Buying a 3/4 ton truck to be used only for towing and other real truck tasks seems considerably more excessive and expensive than a $500 hitch (then, $800 now :yikes: ) to go on a 1/2 ton SUV that also serves as a daily commuting, errand running, family hauling, people mover and that happens to tow just fine when properly equipped.
Except that the 1/2 ton trucks today have mostly the same capability as my 10+ year-old 3/4 ton truck. I'd feel good towing in a new 1/2 ton without a WDH or sway control. :dunno:
I kinda hate SUVs and would really dislike driving one regularly and they just don't tow as well as trucks. They have softer rear springs and generally shorter wheelbases. Different use cases between you and me for sure, and I do understand where you're coming from and think it's a reasonable position. I just am not willing to deal with the annoyance of a WDH anymore.
Also, my truck was $8k and can certainly be used to haul people / commute / run errands in a pinch. Dat 12MPG, though.
clyde
09-30-2015, 02:43 PM
Except that the 1/2 ton trucks today have mostly the same capability as my 10+ year-old 3/4 ton truck. I'd feel good towing in a new 1/2 ton without a WDH or sway control. :dunno:
I kinda hate SUVs and would really dislike driving one regularly and they just don't tow as well as trucks. They have softer rear springs and generally shorter wheelbases. Different use cases between you and me for sure, and I do understand where you're coming from and think it's a reasonable position. I just am not willing to deal with the annoyance of a WDH anymore.
Also, my truck was $8k and can certainly be used to haul people / commute / run errands in a pinch. Dat 12MPG, though.
The annoyance level for sway/WDH is clearly different for the two of us. no big deal.
However well a good truck might tow, I thought the Armada towed fine, but I wouldn't have gone any softer, smaller or lighter. In a slightly more perfect world my first choice would have been a 3/4 Suburban, but they came with all kinds of other compromises I didn't want to make given the total use case I had. A couple of the Excursions probably would have done well, too.
Given anything to use on a daily basis, it sure wouldn't be my Armada or your truck, but given a choice between the two for any non-a-truck-is-clearly-better-for-this task, I'd take the Armada every time.
I've forgotten...what were we arguing about that got us here? :dunno:
The annoyance level for sway/WDH is clearly different for the two of us. no big deal.
However well a good truck might tow, I thought the Armada towed fine, but I wouldn't have gone any softer, smaller or lighter. In a slightly more perfect world my first choice would have been a 3/4 Suburban, but they came with all kinds of other compromises I didn't want to make given the total use case I had. A couple of the Excursions probably would have done well, too.
Given anything to use on a daily basis, it sure wouldn't be my Armada or your truck, but given a choice between the two for any non-a-truck-is-clearly-better-for-this task, I'd take the Armada every time.
I've forgotten...what were we arguing about that got us here? :dunno:
None of the vehicles mentioned have a bioweapon defense mode. Unlike the Model X. So, there's that.
clyde
09-30-2015, 02:50 PM
None of the vehicles mentioned have a bioweapon defense mode. Unlike the Model X. So, there's that.
How much coal can a Model X roll?
How much coal can a Model X roll?
Depends on which state you're in. In W.VA? Quite a bit.
The only problem with the bioweapon defense mode is that it appears manual. You'd think they'd automate that -- any bioweapon worth using has immediate impact, so I'd want that switched on before any contaminated air makes it in.
In all honesty though, I have noticed petroleum odors wafting into my Model S at times from other cars exhaust. Something I never noticed before in an enclosed car -- since gas cars make the odor and you always have it with you. I bet the massive filter is really an attempt at keeping that out...
So... No comments about the look of the Model X?
The only problem with the bioweapon defense mode is that it appears manual. You'd think they'd automate that -- any bioweapon worth using has immediate impact, so I'd want that switched on before any contaminated air makes it in.
In all honesty though, I have noticed petroleum odors wafting into my Model S at times from other cars exhaust. Something I never noticed before in an enclosed car -- since gas cars make the odor and you always have it with you. I bet the massive filter is really an attempt at keeping that out...
So... No comments about the look of the Model X?
I really don't like the new nose. As I said over at TMC, I have no objection to a nose without a grille--there are lots (or, OK, some) cars from Corvairs to Tatras to Porsches that haven't had grilles. But this implementation looks dumb, like they designed it with the Model S nosecone and then at the last minute said, eh, never mind, leave the bottom half off.
Other than that, it's fine. No real surprises. The rear doors are surprisingly cool. The front doors are kind of goofy, with the auto-open function. I'll want to see one in person, but nothing about it makes me think I'd rather have one than a Model S.
Most bioweapons I encounter whilst on the road originate from inside the car. :eeps:
I really don't like the new nose. As I said over at TMC, I have no objection to a nose without a grille--there are lots (or, OK, some) cars from Corvairs to Tatras to Porsches that haven't had grilles. But this implementation looks dumb, like they designed it with the Model S nosecone and then at the last minute said, eh, never mind, leave the bottom half off.
Other than that, it's fine. No real surprises. The rear doors are surprisingly cool. The front doors are kind of goofy, with the auto-open function. I'll want to see one in person, but nothing about it makes me think I'd rather have one than a Model S.
That's kind of how I feel about the nose also. Although from some angles and on the darker colors, its starting to grow on me. Want to see it in person first though.
That's kind of how I feel about the nose also. Although from some angles and on the darker colors, its starting to grow on me. Want to see it in person first though.
In dark colors it's OK. I actually wonder if it would look better with a body-color "lip" or whatever we're going to call that arch with the T in the middle.
This may be one of the few cars that really needs a front license plate to not look weird.
So I talked with a fellow Model S owner, who has a Model X reservations (placed over 2 years ago -- shortly after they took delivery of their Model S…). He lives a couple miles from me, and took delivery of their Model S a couple days after me -- we met of coffee shortly after delivery and have met up a handful of times over the last couple years.
He attended the Model X reveal event. Said it was crazy crowded (apparently over 2500 people there)… He did get a ride in the X afterwards. From talking with him, he wasn't too fond of new nose (especially in white, other colors weren't as odd looking), although he said the headlights looked really good… He sat in the back and said that the outside seats had plenty of headroom (he's 6' 2"), but the middle seat was a bit tight due to the roof structure. He's not certain they'll actually go through with the order -- he's a bit concerned about the middle seats not folding (they don't have kids, but have a couple dogs, and they put them in their S with the back seat folded). He also doesn't like not being able to put a roof rack on -- they paddle board, so the rear-mounted hitch rack won't work…
Did you see Elon's tweet about the roof rack? Apparently they're developing one using suction cups (!) that will leave one door functional.
The lack of folding seats is a really surprising miss. I assume this just turned out to be too hard to engineer with integral seat belts, but it really reduces the utility of the vehicle.
I'm less sympathetic to the people who are surprised by the lack of towing capacity. I'll be very interested to see what the range for a MX is with a 5000 lb trailer. I'm guessing "not far," especially in colder weather.
Add to that the issue of having to disconnect the trailer every time you charge, and really towing is going to be a vanity project with these.
No -- I didn't see that tweet. Interesting -- might be workable. I've see the professional camera mounts that use suction cups. Those don't move unless you release them (and the suction cup is a good 5-6 inches in diameter…)
As for towing… I could see using a light utility trailer -- that would offset the need for folding seats (say when moving stuff around town…).
Those rear doors are still dumb.
Sharp11
10-05-2015, 10:54 AM
$130K ..... yikes! It's clearly not the peoples' SUV.
$130K ..... yikes! It's clearly not the peoples' SUV.
No, it's clearly not. But this is the highest optioned version that they are shipping first. Later there will be equivalents to lower versions of the Model S. Those will still be expensive (the Model S is expensive), but they will be more reasonable than the headline number here. Tesla has said that the Model X will cost $5K more than an equivalent Model S.
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