Worth a read--DE fatality at Road Atlanta

[JST]

Not sure if the jalopbot will post this, but in case it doesn't:

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/fatal-accident-at-road-atlanta-1721931526

It's worth a read for the perspective the author offers on the "the gap;"--the space between when a driver is just figuring out how to get around a track and when the driver finally invests in serious, track-only safety gear (usually in the context of taking the next step to go racing).

You'll probably all recall that I did a slew of DEs a couple of years ago. A few things conspired to make me quit--the friend who got me into it got out of the hobby, the kids started taking up a lot of time, etc.

But I'd be lying if I said the safety thing had nothing to do with it. I remember looking around at a gathering of relative old-hands at a PCA DE and realizing that every single one of them had wrecked a car. Every. One. None of them had been seriously injured, although a couple of them had been extremely--no, fancifully, unbelievably--lucky in that regard. And it's not because they were bad drivers. It's just that physics is a bitch, and if you run on a track often enough the odds start to run against you.

Anyway. Thought I'd share. I wholeheartedly endorse getting out on the track. It's an amazing amount of fun. But I don't really plan to do it again without a purpose-built car.

[ZBB]

Thanks for sharing.

I've done a couple of DEs, but nothing regular. There was a wreck right in front of me on the last one, although it was a suspension component failure, and the driver did bring the car to a stop on the track. I slowed when I noticed the sparks, then went around as he braked; it happened to be on the last lap, so I pulled off before going back around.

I wouldn't want to be around a major crash. Would love to do more track days and get some formal training. But you are right about the safety risk...

[John V]

Ultimately, things like this are what made me stop going. There is always that potential for something completely out of your control.

[Pinecone]

I have driven in a number of DE events and instructed in many more.

I had seen few accidents that damage cars. VERY few that caused enough damage to make the car unable to be driven home.

I am not counting running into the runoff area and getting the car dirty. I am talking about bending metal.

In interestingly, most of the more serious accidents, have been the instructors.

And considering how many DE events are run, the safety record is quite good, as evidenced by the fact that such an accident is news. It they happened often, no one would talk much about them.

I am not suggesting that more safety equipment is not a good idea. But that will not stop the occasional fatal accident.

[JST]

I have driven in a number of DE events and instructed in many more.

I had seen few accidents that damage cars. VERY few that caused enough damage to make the car unable to be driven home.

I am not counting running into the runoff area and getting the car dirty. I am talking about bending metal.

In interestingly, most of the more serious accidents, have been the instructors.

And considering how many DE events are run, the safety record is quite good, as evidenced by the fact that such an accident is news. It they happened often, no one would talk much about them.

I am not suggesting that more safety equipment is not a good idea. But that will not stop the occasional fatal accident.


I don't know what the accident and/or injury and/or fatality rate is. I've often heard it said that you are safer on the track than on the way to and from it, though I don't know whether the data actually back that claim up.

I do know that accidents and (especially) injuries are generally not discussed, except in hushed tones. Partly this is related to publicity--at many, if not all, events there was a general warning given not to take pictures or share descriptions of incidents on social media. I'm not quarreling with that policy, just noting that it makes gathering accurate information difficult.

I will say that I am pretty sure there was a serious "off" resulting in a non-driveable vehicle at each of the events I attended. Certainly if not every one, then most of them--and in some cases more than one. Were the PCA guys just being extra aggressive? Maybe.

[Sharp11]

I had the pleasure of spending an afternoon with Sam Posey in October of 2012 - I asked him why he quit racing at the height of his success and fame, he said "because I realized I could get killed".

He had seen his friend Mark Donahue die in an awful crash and he told me he knew Donahue to be the most careful, conservative-about-safety driver of his group - yet it didn't matter, an accident had claimed him.

[FC]

I am constantly asked why I don't track the TT. Aside from real logistical and financial reasons (not related to crashes), the TT kind of scares me.

As I've made my way up in car performance, the ability to control and slow the car down has more or less kept pace with increases in speed. The TT is not like that. 20 pistons, and wide, sticky tires (stickier than what it left the factory with) don't make a difference. The non-linear increase in distance required to slow down as speed increases really bites you hard in a car that can accelerate so hard. I once stayed on WOT for a fraction of a second more than usual in a spot I know well, and the added speed plus distance traveled in that small time meant I was hundreds of feet off the mark to slow down to the ~20mph I needed to be at to make the turn. In my case I had a mile of extra road to continue on to make the u turn, but at the track?

This is not helped by the fact that I've had to try some pretty stupid things to get the TT to even begin to see any nannies in action. I really don't know how the car behaves at the limit.

Also, I had plenty of fun at Lemons in a stock, beat up Cabrio, so you don't need speed to have fun at the track.

[zach]

the TT kind of scares me.

Yeah, me too. That thing is obscenely fast.

[JST]

So is that thing (the TT) still going up for sale? And is zach buying it?

[Nick M3]

I am constantly asked why I don't track the TT. Aside from real logistical and financial reasons (not related to crashes), the TT kind of scares me.

As I've made my way up in car performance, the ability to control and slow the car down has more or less kept pace with increases in speed. The TT is not like that. 20 pistons, and wide, sticky tires (stickier than what it left the factory with) don't make a difference. The non-linear increase in distance required to slow down as speed increases really bites you hard in a car that can accelerate so hard. I once stayed on WOT for a fraction of a second more than usual in a spot I know well, and the added speed plus distance traveled in that small time meant I was hundreds of feet off the mark to slow down to the ~20mph I needed to be at to make the turn. In my case I had a mile of extra road to continue on to make the u turn, but at the track?

This is not helped by the fact that I've had to try some pretty stupid things to get the TT to even begin to see any nannies in action. I really don't know how the car behaves at the limit.

Also, I had plenty of fun at Lemons in a stock, beat up Cabrio, so you don't need speed to have fun at the track.

You're over exaggerating the impact of staying on throttle. You just missed your braking point. The non-linear increase in braking distance required is largely offset by the progressively more sluggish acceleration at speed. (The 997TT takes 7.8 seconds to get to 100mph, but 13.4 more to get from there to 150.)

I agree that it doesn't need to be fast to be fun, though. I have more fun on track in a slower car because I get to play with people. Enough power to keep up is perfect.

[Nick M3]

I mean, for context here, a crap family sedan takes around 300 feet to stop from 112ish MPH (per a recent top gear test). 112mph is 167 feet per second. In order for a fraction of a second to throw you off by "hundreds of feet" of feet, you'd have to be traveling at quite a high speed. (And by that I mean 200 feet traveled in half a second gives me 272mph by my math).

[FC]

I mean, for context here, a crap family sedan takes around 300 feet to stop from 112ish MPH (per a recent top gear test). 112mph is 167 feet per second. In order for a fraction of a second to throw you off by "hundreds of feet" of feet, you'd have to be traveling at quite a high speed. (And by that I mean 200 feet traveled in half a second gives me 272mph by my math).

It was a figure of speech. I missed it by maybe closer to a second. What usually happens is that I get pretty close to redline on 3rd, at that point I can get on the brakes reasonably hard and make my turn.

In this occasion, I instinctively shifted to forth and hit the gas a bit there. So instead of hitting the gas at upper 11X, I am guessing I was well into the 120's. Regardless of the accuracy of my statement, it sure as hell feels scary.

In a spot where going fast in a Boxster S/ZHP/V70R might have meant 70-85 mph, the TT easily gets you into triple digits without breaking a sweat. Shaving speed at 110mph is very different from 80mph and the improved braking hardware doesn't close that gap nearly enough. I guess that was my point.

[FC]

So is that thing (the TT) still going up for sale? And is zach buying it?

As a matter of fact it is likely that I will be selling it soon. Maybe even in a few weeks.

My newly found interest in cycling means using the LR4 even more.

It's just hard to part with such a machine without a gun to your head. But it's probably what I should do given our upcoming change in finances.

[Pinecone]

I will say that I am pretty sure there was a serious "off" resulting in a non-driveable vehicle at each of the events I attended. Certainly if not every one, then most of them--and in some cases more than one. Were the PCA guys just being extra aggressive? Maybe.

I have seen a serious off, also at a PCA event when we were doing a Skippy school at Lime Rock. That was the same event, where people were blowing their horns down the front straight trying to get a point by.

Remind to NOT do PCA events.

I have done a number of BMWCCA events, no un-drivable offs. And not many offs that required red flagging the session.

I teach at Friday at the Track and SCCA PDX events. Only one serious off at any of the events I was at. A 350Z did not complete all three steps of skid recovery and went into the gravel sideways and rolled. I used to have pictures.

I have seen and even been in a couple of offs that resulted in minor damage. And one car caught fire recently.

And I agree with Nick. But missing your breaking point by 1 full second at 120, means you missed by 176 FEET. Were you asleep?