View Full Version : Porsche to build STI?
http://jalopnik.com/cars/mini-porker/over-the-back-fence-a-hatchback-from-porsche-290059.php
Hmm; the allegation is that Porsche is working on a VW-based hatchback that would be powered by a front-mounted Boxster engine with AWD.
I'll take about half a dozen.
If it fit my needs, I'd be all over it too.
I wonder if the AWD will have a rear-bias...
zcasavant
08-16-2007, 09:39 AM
If it fit my needs, I'd be all over it too.
I think I'd say that statement about anything. :dunno: ;)
I think I'd say that statement about anything. :dunno: ;)
I don't care how nicely an Aztek fit my needs, I ain't gettin' one.:ack:
:D
John V
08-16-2007, 10:47 AM
Ugh... AWD? :ack:
rumatt
08-16-2007, 10:51 AM
This sounds appealing? :ack:
This sounds appealing? :ack:
Why doesn't it?
OK, take as read that RWD is more appealing dynamically than AWD. But a hatchback with a 3.2L 300 hp six, room for four people + luggage, a manual transmission, and rear-biased or 50/50 AWD? What is wrong with that formula? Admittedly, I'm making a couple of assumptions there (the torque split on the AWD, the availability of a manual), but neither is outrageous.
It's not a two seat sportscar. But, at the same time, it's not a two seat sportscar. So while it won't drive as well as a Boxster, you can actually carry things and people in it.
Or should Porsche stick to building only Boxsters? I mean, this makes a hell of a lot more sense from a Porsche brand standpoint than the Cayenne.
This sounds appealing? :ack:
Too bad the price will be outrageous.
John V
08-16-2007, 11:25 AM
The basic layout sounds reasonably appealing (if you consider AWD a "feature," which I don't), but Bren's right. This thing will be so much more expensive than an STi it won't even be funny.
I do agree that this makes a lot more sense than the Cayenne, and I do appreciate the fact that it will piss off the stukas of the world even more than the Boxster does.
The basic layout sounds reasonably appealing (if you consider AWD a "feature," which I don't), but Bren's right. This thing will be so much more expensive than an STi it won't even be funny.
I do agree that this makes a lot more sense than the Cayenne, and I do appreciate the fact that it will piss off the stukas of the world even more than the Boxster does.
Yeah, but you have said yourself that the STI sucks. Why should it matter that the a car that sucks is cheaper? Hyundai Elantras are cheaper, too.
It would almost certainly be more expensive than the 135, given Porsche's pricing structure, but if it were, say, 40-50K, I'd take a hard look.
It would almost certainly be more expensive than the 135, given Porsche's pricing structure, but if it were, say, 40-50K, I'd take a hard look.
For something the size of Golf? Personally, it would have to provide some pretty impressive performance for me to consider a $40-50K econobox.
For something the size of Golf? Personally, it would have to provide some pretty impressive performance for me to consider a $40-50K econobox.
The 911 is a lot smaller than a Golf and costs three-four times as much.
I'm with JST here.
Some of you all crack me up with this mangled logic. In reality, there are very few cars out there at any price that aren't a compromise (to varying degress, obviously) of functionality and fun. BMWs (which are to blame for most of us knowing each other in the first place) are a very balanced compromise - basically highly practical relatively high performance cars. Porsche skews more toward performance at the expense of practicality while VW skews toward practicality at the expense of performance. But both VW and Porsche are still compromise cars.
So why is a relatively practical high performance car such a bad idea to some of you? Size isn't a strict measure of practicality.
John V
08-16-2007, 12:09 PM
If it were RWD I would be very interested. AWD, not so much.
rumatt
08-16-2007, 12:10 PM
Some of you all crack me up with this mangled logic.
Having zero desire to own an AWD hatch is mangled logic?
Having zero desire to own an AWD hatch is mangled logic?
No.
But comparing it to an STi strictly in terms of cost is. Or questioning the idea of buying a "Golf-sized" car for $40-50K is.
You don't want an AWD hatch. Fine. But people's preferences aren't what's been argued.
I'd take this very expensive AWD hatch...
Size isn't a strict measure of practicality.
"It's not the size of the boat, but the motion of the ocean?" :lol:
I'd take this very expensive AWD hatch...
Very expensive AWD hatch, no less.
Very expensive AWD hatch, no less.
:scratch:
:scratch:
I quickly edited and added AWD. Tom beat me to it, I guess.;)
I quickly edited and added AWD. Tom beat me to it, I guess.;)
D'oh!
Yup. When I clicked reply, the "AWD" was not there.
The 911 is a lot smaller than a Golf and costs three-four times as much.
The 911 doesn't pretend to be a family car, though. It's purpose built.
I guess that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. What I'm getting at, is that if I'm looking for something small with a backseat (i.e. not a sports car), there are a lot of more attractive (to me) choices out there for a lot less than $40-50K. Just seems awfully expensive to me.
....given Porsche's pricing structure, but if it were, say, 40-50K, I'd take a hard look.
That would almost be reasonable money, I don't expect Porsche to sell a car for anything near that.
Personally, I have no use for AWD. I guess I am happy they are building it anyway though. Choices are good.
The 911 doesn't pretend to be a family car, though. It's purpose built.
I guess that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. What I'm getting at, is that if I'm looking for something small with a backseat (i.e. not a sports car), there are a lot of more attractive (to me) choices out there for a lot less than $40-50K. Just seems awfully expensive to me.
Who gives a shit what it may or may not pretend to be? If I bought one, my kids would have to regularly ride in the quasi-back seat. Does that make it a "family car"?
Granted JST and I were about two of maybe three guys here who thought the VW R32 was a great car. So...
Granted JST and I were about two of maybe three guys here who thought the VW R32 was a great car. So...
...though neither of you bought one, IIRC b/c the price to value ratio was silly.
...though neither of you bought one, IIRC b/c the price to value ratio was silly.
Well, it was a VW and we were both assuming the car would depreciate like a brick with no resale market. We were both wrong and I think we've both, at one point or another, regretted our decisions to not buy one new.
...though neither of you bought one, IIRC b/c the price to value ratio was silly.
ding ding ding! Thank you
lemming
08-16-2007, 01:39 PM
VW based hatch already sounds like a Porsche first: company's first FWD car..........
but if anyone can make it work, Porsche can. and there will be buyers for it if they make it.
Well, it was a VW and we were both assuming the car would depreciate like a brick with no resale market. We were both wrong and I think we've both, at one point or another, regretted our decisions to not buy one new.
A quick search of ebay STILL showe 04's in the mid to high 20's with over 50K miles on them!!! WOW.
Will the eventual release of the new R32 have an effect or will the lack of a manual in the new version keep resale high?
The base trade-in number is 20k with 46,000 miles. I could have had a new one in 04 summer for 28.
Well, it was a VW and we were both assuming the car would depreciate like a brick with no resale market. We were both wrong and I think we've both, at one point or another, regretted our decisions to not buy one new.
Still regret it. If I'd bought the one I was looking at and kept it 'til now, it would have cost me, worst case, 7-8K. That was in early '04, so you are talking about a TCO of about $178 per month (exclusive of taxes, etc). I won't tell you what I actually paid for the cars I leased instead. Let's just say it's a bit higher than that.
lemming
08-16-2007, 03:39 PM
Still regret it. If I'd bought the one I was looking at and kept it 'til now, it would have cost me, worst case, 7-8K. That was in early '04, so you are talking about a TCO of about $178 per month (exclusive of taxes, etc). I won't tell you what I actually paid for the cars I leased instead. Let's just say it's a bit higher than that.
:dunno:
if you've owned an e36m3, then i'd say you didn't miss anything on the R32 --if you've never owned an e36m3, then i'd say "hell, yeah, cry because you've never driven a non-numb modern M3".
:dunno:
if you've owned an e36m3, then i'd say you didn't miss anything on the R32 --if you've never owned an e36m3, then i'd say "hell, yeah, cry because you've never driven a non-numb modern M3".
Yeah, but this would have been instead of the WRX and the A4, which is what I've had as "second" cars since then. It's fair to say that while I liked both well enough, neither ownership experience really did anything for me.
http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Porsche/odds/PORSCHECompact.jpg
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/hatchbacks/is-porsche-developing-the-ultimate-hot-hatch/
rautox
08-20-2007, 10:41 AM
To whom is this supposed to appeal?
(Sheepishly raises hand...) It appeals to me. I can't say why exactly.
Sorry that's heinous, in a worse-than-6er kind of way.
It's like an odd genetically contrived offspring of a Cayenne, a Dodge Magnum, and a 6er.
undefined
08-20-2007, 10:50 AM
(Sheepishly raises hand...) It appeals to me. I can't say why exactly.
cause you're a badge whore :D
John V
08-20-2007, 10:53 AM
The front end, as with most Porsches, is really weird looking. Otherwise, it has a kind of M-coupe (E36/8) dorkiness to it that appeals to me. But the talk of AWD makes it less than interesting to me. It'll all come down to how it drives and how it's priced.
Wow, I just don't get you guys sometimes.
Honestly, the (M)Z4/(M)Z4 coupe is 1000% better looking than that monstrosity.
I know I posted the pic, but as it's nothing more than an "artist rendering", it's probably nearly worthless as far as it's predictive value goes.
I expect an appeallingly odd look.
John V
08-20-2007, 11:06 AM
You don't get how someone could have a different opinion than you on an entirely subjective topic? :)
It ain't pretty. But the front end is familiar, as JV said. The back is a demented version of the Cayenne's rear end.
Our 3D artist has put together an image of what a possible Porsche hatch could look like. It’s completely speculative, of course, but still a tantalizing look at what might be around the corner.
1) It's basically useless to speculate on what a car *could* look like. The final product could very well be something completely different.
2) How on earth do these guys generate images of non-existent cars that look so much like the real thing? I think that's amazing.
You don't get how someone could have a different opinion than you on an entirely subjective topic? :)
To whom are you referring?
You don't get how someone could have a different opinion than you on an entirely subjective topic? :)
I understand how someone could have a different opinion, of course. I just don't get the opinion, because it's so obviously wrong. :lol:
Wow, I just don't get you guys sometimes.
Honestly, the (M)Z4/(M)Z4 coupe is 1000% better looking than that monstrosity.
Of course, I vehemently disagree.
rautox
08-20-2007, 11:32 AM
(Sheepishly raises hand...) It appeals to me. I can't say why exactly.
:lol:
It just seems like an odder-than-usual segment buster. Sorta like the cayennereg. Is it a rally car? If so, are they goin' for an upscale evo market? Is it a neovolvo 1800es wagon?... goin' after... simon templar wannabes? :dunno:
rumatt
08-20-2007, 11:55 AM
Sorry that's heinous, in a worse-than-6er kind of way.
It's like an odd genetically contrived offspring of a Cayenne, a Dodge Magnum, and a 6er.
:+1
That thing is ridiculous.
If it had a toyota badge, people would be saying it was hideous.
1) It's basically useless to speculate on what a car *could* look like. The final product could very well be something completely different.
2) How on earth do these guys generate images of non-existent cars that look so much like the real thing? I think that's amazing.
+1. Arguing about the aesthetic merits of a purely hypothetical photoshop based on a Carrera GT with 911 wheels is pretty pointless.
rautox
08-20-2007, 12:24 PM
+1. Arguing about the aesthetic merits of a purely hypothetical photoshop based on a Carrera GT with 911 wheels is pretty pointless.
OK. Those wheels are at least 3 steps beyond hideous. :D
:lol:
It just seems like an odder-than-usual segment buster. Sorta like the cayennereg. Is it a rally car? If so, are they goin' for an upscale evo market? Is it a neovolvo 1800es wagon?... goin' after... simon templar wannabes? :dunno:
It makes perfect sense to me.
Let's look at the typical young professional. He or she has a decent job, makes good money, wants a car that performs well, is fun to drive, and has always wanted a Porsche. Perfect candidate for a Boxster...except, whoops, our customer just had a baby. Or two. A two-seat car is right out.
So let's say our customer wanders into the Porsche showroom. What can we show him or her? A 911? We're dealing with a young professional, here, who just had a baby. $80K is a bit too much to ask, plus the 911 won't hold a stroller unless its a Quinny Zapp. A Cayenne? Well, maybe some of our more SUV loving customers will bite. But many are going to say, meh. I don't want an SUV no matter whose badge is on the front. Maybe I'll go see about that Audi A3 across the forecourt.
Hey, we say, come back. We have this just-released hatchback. It'll fit two baby seats in the back. It's AWD, so none of that torque-steer ickiness. It's cheaper than a 911, and it will hold a stroller. Best of all, it drives like a Porsche.
What? Of course. You can make the check payable to...
It makes perfect sense to me.
Let's look at the typical young professional. He or she has a decent job, makes good money, wants a car that performs well, is fun to drive, and has always wanted a Porsche. Perfect candidate for a Boxster...except, whoops, our customer just had a baby. Or two. A two-seat car is right out.
So let's say our customer wanders into the Porsche showroom. What can we show him or her? A 911? We're dealing with a young professional, here, who just had a baby. $80K is a bit too much to ask, plus the 911 won't hold a stroller unless its a Quinny Zapp. A Cayenne? Well, maybe some of our more SUV loving customers will bite. But many are going to say, meh. I don't want an SUV no matter whose badge is on the front. Maybe I'll go see about that Audi A3 across the forecourt.
Hey, we say, come back. We have this just-released hatchback. It'll fit two baby seats in the back. It's AWD, so none of that torque-steer ickiness. It's cheaper than a 911, and it will hold a stroller. Best of all, it drives like a Porsche.
What? Of course. You can make the check payable to...
:+1
Even for those of us who have kids past stroller age, a back seat is still critical.
It makes perfect sense to me.
Let's look at the typical young professional. He or she has a decent job, makes good money, wants a car that performs well, is fun to drive, and has always wanted a Porsche. Perfect candidate for a Boxster...except, whoops, our customer just had a baby. Or two. A two-seat car is right out.
So let's say our customer wanders into the Porsche showroom. What can we show him or her? A 911? We're dealing with a young professional, here, who just had a baby. $80K is a bit too much to ask, plus the 911 won't hold a stroller unless its a Quinny Zapp. A Cayenne? Well, maybe some of our more SUV loving customers will bite. But many are going to say, meh. I don't want an SUV no matter whose badge is on the front. Maybe I'll go see about that Audi A3 across the forecourt.
Hey, we say, come back. We have this just-released hatchback. It'll fit two baby seats in the back. It's AWD, so none of that torque-steer ickiness. It's cheaper than a 911, and it will hold a stroller. Best of all, it drives like a Porsche.
What? Of course. You can make the check payable to...
Agree. That's potentially me.
Unless of course it looks like that PShop. :ack:
lemming
08-20-2007, 01:23 PM
i dig the concept.
i just worry about the execution, this being based upon Golf mechanicals and so forth.
Sharp11
08-20-2007, 01:42 PM
Why not just get an R32, it's going to be relatively the same thing - except the R32 will be waaaay less expensive.
The "young professional" will pay through the nose for the P car though, because, well, because he has to........
Then he'll join the P car forums and want to know why his bluetooth (fill in the blank) such and such won't work and what degree of tinting he should get and would 20's or 22's be appropriate... then he'll post pics of the thing in various states of modding taken either in his parent's driveway, where he lives, or in some shitty apartment alley way (which will lead to the inevitable "what do I do about stray cats on the hood" posts.....:lol:
Yep, that's today's "buyer".....
Ed
It makes perfect sense to me.
Let's look at the typical young professional. He or she has a decent job, makes good money, wants a car that performs well, is fun to drive, and has always wanted a Porsche. Perfect candidate for a Boxster...except, whoops, our customer just had a baby. Or two. A two-seat car is right out.
So let's say our customer wanders into the Porsche showroom. What can we show him or her? A 911? We're dealing with a young professional, here, who just had a baby. $80K is a bit too much to ask, plus the 911 won't hold a stroller unless its a Quinny Zapp. A Cayenne? Well, maybe some of our more SUV loving customers will bite. But many are going to say, meh. I don't want an SUV no matter whose badge is on the front. Maybe I'll go see about that Audi A3 across the forecourt.
Hey, we say, come back. We have this just-released hatchback. It'll fit two baby seats in the back. It's AWD, so none of that torque-steer ickiness. It's cheaper than a 911, and it will hold a stroller. Best of all, it drives like a Porsche.
What? Of course. You can make the check payable to...
I agree 100%. Except... Porsche is going to REALLY do its homework because I don't see this not being cross-shopped with M3's, 335xi's, S4's, etc.
Which also begs the question... why not just release a 3er/M3 killer? Why release an A3/135i killer?
I agree 100%. Except... Porsche is going to REALLY do its homework because I don't see this not being cross-shopped with M3's, 335xi's, S4's, etc.
Which also begs the question... why not just release a 3er/M3 killer? Why release an A3/135i killer?
I suspect they might know something we don't. I think they suspect that the "killer" game is going to be played amongst the smaller cars, not the bloated M3 types.
Just look at us- How many thread pages have we spend discussing the 135i versus how many discussing the E92 M3?
Why not just get an R32, it's going to be relatively the same thing - except the R32 will be waaaay less expensive.
The "young professional" will pay through the nose for the P car though, because, well, because he has to........
Then he'll join the P car forums and want to know why his bluetooth (fill in the blank) such and such won't work and what degree of tinting he should get and would 20's or 22's be appropriate... then he'll post pics of the thing in various states of modding taken either in his parent's driveway, where he lives, or in some shitty apartment alley way (which will lead to the inevitable "what do I do about stray cats on the hood" posts.....:lol:
Yep, that's today's "buyer".....
Ed
I'd buy an R32 tomorrow if it had a stick. But it doesn't, so I won't.
lemming
08-20-2007, 01:52 PM
true.
the M3 has moved upmarket and they're all playing for the smaller cars....not like it's only for the US market either. this would be the volume selling market in Europe, anyway.
I suspect they might know something we don't. I think they suspect that the "killer" game is going to be played amongst the smaller cars, not the bloated M3 types.
Just look at us- How many thread pages have we spend discussing the 135i versus how many discussing the E92 M3?
Perhaps. Still, it is a rather odd entry to try to broaden the brand. I mean, the Panamera is WAY too high-end and this seems surprisingly "low-end." I guess pricing and specs will tell the story on this car.
But if they really nail it, and I'm sure they will, it could be quite the "do-it-all" car.
lemming
08-20-2007, 02:23 PM
but if they don't have to pay R&D for the platform and can still charge Porsche premiums for each car built plus Porsche-price the options, what they have is a very profitable entry level car --something that is very difficult to achieve.
but if they don't have to pay R&D for the platform and can still charge Porsche premiums for each car built plus Porsche-price the options, what they have is a very profitable entry level car --something that is very difficult to achieve.
But that dilutes the so carefully crafted brand.
Also, remember that there is "entry-level" and there is "Porsche entry-level." That car will not be priced at less than $50K. They better absolutely nail the driving experience.
John V
08-20-2007, 04:13 PM
Why not just get an R32, it's going to be relatively the same thing - except the R32 will be waaaay less expensive.
The "young professional" will pay through the nose for the P car though, because, well, because he has to........
Then he'll join the P car forums and want to know why his bluetooth (fill in the blank) such and such won't work and what degree of tinting he should get and would 20's or 22's be appropriate... then he'll post pics of the thing in various states of modding taken either in his parent's driveway, where he lives, or in some shitty apartment alley way (which will lead to the inevitable "what do I do about stray cats on the hood" posts.....:lol:
Yep, that's today's "buyer".....
WTF?! :lol:
Where do you come up with this shit? :lol:
methinks something/one peed in Ed's cheerios this morning. :lol:
Sharp11
08-20-2007, 06:36 PM
WTF?! :lol:
Where do you come up with this shit? :lol:
....too much time on bimmerfest, I guess.... :lol:
Ed
lemming
08-20-2007, 07:46 PM
i actually think Ed has his sh*t together, but that's just me.
Porsche knows how important its namebrand is and how to best leverage it to maximize profits --more so than any other German manufacturer. i think they must laugh really hard behind closed doors.
what else explains the toureg? or how the cayman is priced more than the boxster? or that a performance exhaust option is $2000 on a base 911?
they know exactly what they're doing and it's not brand dilution. it's the same idea as the 1 series but better executed, i bet. get the low end interested and keep them for life while also soaking up lots of other conquest-type transactions.
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