On Shifting: Exactly when do you lift of the gas?

[FC]

This may sound like a totally goofy question, but since I basically tought myself to drive stick, my technique is always under review.

Let's say you are driving and need to upshift from 2nd to 3rd. Your right foot (RF) is on the gas while on second. The left foot (LF) moves over to the clutch. Now, exactly how far into the clutch if at all is the LF when you lift of the RF from the gas?

I've started to cut the gas sooner and find the rpms now drop exactly when I need them too to make an absolutely perfect 2-3 shift. Of course, on higher gears, I now need to give it a bit of gas as I let go of the clutch pedal to make the shift smooth. The penalty from all this is that my shifts are slower.

It seems to me that if the RF is not completely off the gas before the clutch pedal is fully actuated, there should be an element of clutch wear.

My larger point then is that to be perfectly efficient, it seems one must start using up dead clutch pedal travel while letting go off the gas pedal and time it just so as soon as soon as the clutch engages one just got off the gas completely. Anything more hurried that this and you would in essence be riding the clutch to some small extent. The flipside is that anything slower than this and you are just wasting time.

Thoughts?

[ff]

I lift off the gas at the precise moment that I start to depress the clutch.

[operknockity]

I lift off the gas at the precise moment that I start to depress the clutch.
:+1

[FC]

You start to lift off at that moment, but how quickly do you lift off the gas versus how quicky do you press the clutch?

[Plaz]

I lift off the gas at the precise moment that I start to depress the clutch.

:+1

You start to lift off at that moment, but how quickly do you lift off the gas versus how quicky do you press the clutch?

I try to time it just right, so the revs drop just as the clutch disengages. It's a balancing act between avoiding an increase in revs as a result of too much gas on the unloaded drivetrain, and enough gas so there's no engine braking before the clutch disengages. I think I get it just right about 98% of the time, without thinking about it at all. :dunno:

[ff]

I try to time it just right, so the revs drop just as the clutch disengages. It's a balancing act between avoiding an increase in revs as a result of too much gas on the unloaded drivetrain, and enough gas so there's no engine braking before the clutch disengages.

That sounds about right. It happens so quickly and so second-nature, that I'd have to really pay attention the next time I'm in the car to really figure out where the gas and clutch pedals are at any given moment.

[FC]

I think my left foot has been slightly quiker than my right foot in the past. So I am trying to teach myself to be just a fraction of a second quiker with my right foot and shifting seems a lot better now. But there is still no engine braking at all. The benefit is that I now don't feel as though the rev hang for so long.

We're talking about tiny amounts of time here. Well, you know what I mean.

[rumatt]

Lifting is for pussies. :twisted:

[ff]

Lifting is for pussies. :twisted:

...and people that don't want to go through clutches every 10,000 miles. :D ;)

[Plaz]

Lifting is for pussies. :twisted:

:lol:

Using the clutch at all is for pussies!

[Nick M3]

...and people that don't want to go through clutches every 10,000 miles. :D ;)
The clutch in the race car had hardly any wear when I put the new engine in. And that's with 10,000 miles of dipped clutch powershifting. What I've found is that the clutch is not the wear item under these conditions. The transmission is. ;)

Really, as long as the revs drop when you clutch in, it doesn't matter where you are on the gas. I very rarely get completely off the gas, as it allows me to shift in a more relaxed manner.

[Sharp11]

:lol:

Using the clutch at all is for pussies!

I used to have fun shifting my '63 Beetle without using the clutch....way back when :lol:

Ed

[lupinsea]

:lol:

Using the clutch at all is for pussies!

http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/automatic_gear_shift.jpg


:dunno: :eeps:

[equ]

I try to time it just right, so the revs drop just as the clutch disengages. It's a balancing act between avoiding an increase in revs as a result of too much gas on the unloaded drivetrain, and enough gas so there's no engine braking before the clutch disengages. I think I get it just right about 98% of the time, without thinking about it at all. :dunno:

Correct description of the trade-off.

I've never had a car that shifted as well as the cayman - I'm finding that I can be very smooth and very quick on upshifts, quicker than I believed possible and sometimes it feels like I'm barely off the gas. (far from full throttle though) Downshifts are great as well, though naturally a bit harder to get perfect. The brake pedal is a bit higher than the accelerator so I have to tilt my knee right to achieve a heel'n'toe (if I'm not braking all the way down - which I'm not). Bmw/subaru pedals allow easier h'n't on the street however this drivetrain/clutch & response is perfect.

[ff]

Really, as long as the revs drop when you clutch in, it doesn't matter where you are on the gas. I very rarely get completely off the gas, as it allows me to shift in a more relaxed manner.

You must not have to deal with rev hang?

[Nick M3]

You must not have to deal with rev hang?
Not bad enough that I don't want to move my hand slower than the revs drop - particularly at low revs.

[lemming]

Lifting is for pussies. :twisted:

:stukabot:

[Doug]

I used to have fun shifting my '63 Beetle without using the clutch....way back when :lol:

Ed


I had a '62, same thing. No clutch except off the stoplight

[lemming]

did you experiment with all of the input, FC?

[FC]

did you experiment with all of the input, FC?

Yes. Basically, as I mentioned above, I was too slow with my right foot on quick shifts, making the revs hang a little too long.

Shifting is better now and I don't feel as great a need for a LWT flywheel.

[Nick M3]

Yes. Basically, as I mentioned above, I was too slow with my right foot on quick shifts, making the revs hang a little too long.

Shifting is better now and I don't feel as great a need for a LWT flywheel.
Keep your foot planted, pussy. :flipoff:

[Sharp11]

I had a '62, same thing. No clutch except off the stoplight

Yep :lol:

That car was something; swing axles, 15 inch wheels, no power, no weight in the front, lots of exposed metal on the dash - two inches from your nose.

It was damned dangerous, and fun as hell.

Ed

[FC]

Keep your foot planted, pussy. :flipoff:

LOL. I don't want to wear out the clutch for ff.;) :D

[Nick M3]

LOL. I don't want to wear out the clutch for ff.;) :D
Don't worry. You won't wear out your clutch. ;)

[Plaz]

Don't worry. You won't wear out your clutch. ;)

"Double A -- 'beep beep' -- MCO!"

[ff]

LOL. I don't want to wear out the clutch for ff.;) :D
You'd better not. I'm watching you carefully. ;) :D

"Double A -- 'beep beep' -- MCO!"
:lol:

[Sharp11]

"Double A -- 'beep beep' -- MCO!"

:lol: Oh da memories.....

Ed

[rumatt]

"Double A -- 'beep beep' -- MCO!"

:bustingup

[dredmo]

:lol:

Using the clutch at all is for pussies!

Real mean drive automatics? :toetap::eek::?

[lemming]

i don't think, after some experimenting, that LTW flywheels are all that good in street cars. i think i'll opt to learn how to deal with dual mass flywheels than go back to a single mass flywheel.

one thing i'd highly recommend for E46 owners is DINAN software or conforti software. so while the cars are DBW throttle'd, their algorithms help with maxing out the potientiometer (or whatever the hell it is) so the lag is completely gone and makes driving the cars much more enjoyable, IMO.

[FC]

i don't think, after some experimenting, that LTW flywheels are all that good in street cars. i think i'll opt to learn how to deal with dual mass flywheels than go back to a single mass flywheel.

one thing i'd highly recommend for E46 owners is DINAN software or conforti software. so while the cars are DBW throttle'd, their algorithms help with maxing out the potientiometer (or whatever the hell it is) so the lag is completely gone and makes driving the cars much more enjoyable, IMO.

The ZHP really is not too bad wrt lag. When it gets annoying is when the rpms sat at idle and then you want to give it gas. The lag then is bad. Say you were in neutral for a few seconds and then you want to rev-match... bad lag. Fortunately that doesn't happen often. But the more the revs have been hopping the more responsive the throttle seems to be. But there is always a little lag. After driving the car for 51 months/48K miles, I've come to know the car quite well.