View Full Version : Mass. Worse than VA? Discuss.
http://jalopnik.com/cars/i-got-your-muffler-right-here%2C-pal/massachusetts-to-ban-modified-exhaust-287920.php
Will they be sending people to jail for violating this law, as VA does to speeders?
Sharp11
08-09-2007, 07:26 PM
Will they extend it to cover motorcycles?
That's where a lot of the noise seems to be these days.
Ed
John V
08-09-2007, 09:00 PM
Virginia also has this law. Try again.
I'm perfectly happy with that.
Virginia also has this law. Try again.
:lol:
lemming
08-09-2007, 10:31 PM
i don't care about cars.
i wish they'd apply this to super-ghey dumbass contractor pickup trucks (yeah, a LOUD 5000lb vehicle is wicked Ph-ast) and on stupid ass pushrod motorcycles.
It sounds like they wanted to ban "fart tips" but couldn't figure out how to word the law. While I hate fart tips, my problem with this law is that enforcement would be too subjective.
A better approach, IMO, would be to set a maximum decibel level for automotive exhaust. Period. So tasteful performance modding would still be allowed but the nuisance exhausts would not.
:dunno:
lemming
08-09-2007, 11:00 PM
there actually are decibel level maximums on the record books, but only spot checking of them in "enforcement" areas that somehow miss out on the full glory of fat men in leather vests on harleys and the sheer hahtness dudes with mullets and tank tops in F650s with straight pipes.
Bikes are really the biggest offenders. And for the life of me I can't understand the appeal.
Sharp11
08-09-2007, 11:20 PM
there actually are decibel level maximums on the record books, but only spot checking of them in "enforcement" areas that somehow miss out on the full glory of fat men in leather vests on harleys and the sheer hahtness dudes with mullets and tank tops in F650s with straight pipes.
Don't forget their "wimmin" :lol:
Jeeze, many of these guys are rolling ads for better health care - I think if you cut them, they'd bleed gravy, pork fat and beer.
Ed
...I think if you cut them, they'd bleed gravy, pork fat and beer.
Ed
:ack:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
rumatt
08-09-2007, 11:47 PM
The quote is best enjoyed if read aloud in a Boston accent.
:lol:
Bikes are really the biggest offenders. And for the life of me I can't understand the appeal.
You notice them right? Which means you are less likely to run them over.
You notice them right? Which means you are less likely to run them over.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
lemming
08-10-2007, 10:22 AM
You notice them right? Which means you are less likely to run them over.
i find that argument to be Sicilian logic (Princess Bride).
you could equip them with flashing strobe lights. you could equip them with those deer whistles. you could equip them with focused sonic blasts.
saying that making them loud is akin to manufacturers saying that FWD is really all about safety when in fact, the history of manufacturing cars as such is for a profoundly different reason.
to be honest, from a psychological profiling point of view, you're actually right...but for a different reason. i think the reason why people need those loud exhausts stems from deep insecurity in most cases. "look at me". i'm in a loud vehicle. PAY ATTENTION TO ME.
i'm on an anachronism of a bike and have no identity for myself, so i need to adopt one to add meaning to my life.
i'm in a 5000-6000lb vehicle that is no fun to drive and isn't fast at all, but making it loud makes it feel less plebeian.
it's not that sports cars don't do the same thing, but on them, it's less of an incongruity. there loudness actually tends to correlate with speed.
clyde
08-10-2007, 11:12 AM
It sounds like they wanted to ban "fart tips" but couldn't figure out how to word the law. While I hate fart tips, my problem with this law is that enforcement would be too subjective.
A better approach, IMO, would be to set a maximum decibel level for automotive exhaust. Period. So tasteful performance modding would still be allowed but the nuisance exhausts would not.
:dunno:
And how would you propose testing for maximum dB?
The individual exhaust components are often sold for mutiple vehicles. The vehicles that they are installed on often have other modifications that are likely to impact any sound reading measurements. But sometimes they don't.
If you take the testing out of the controlled conditions of a laboratory, you introduce widely unknown and variable environmental conditions that can change very rapidly. Temperature, cloud level, wind, humidity, and other atmospeheric conditions play a big role in determining the measurement and they are all unstable. If it's field testing, is the test conducted at idle or WOT? Stationary or moving? If moving, how do you factor out tire, intake, and other noise generated by the car? And how do you ensure that it's safe to conduct such a test if it's in motion at WOT? Where do you place the meter in relationship to the car? What about variances in the exhaust output direction? I could keep going...
Oh, and you've used the "tasteful" caveat again. What is fair, equitable, or objective about taste?
clyde
08-10-2007, 11:14 AM
i find that argument to be Sicilian logic (Princess Bride).
you could equip them with flashing strobe lights. you could equip them with those deer whistles. you could equip them with focused sonic blasts.
saying that making them loud is akin to manufacturers saying that FWD is really all about safety when in fact, the history of manufacturing cars as such is for a profoundly different reason.
to be honest, from a psychological profiling point of view, you're actually right...but for a different reason. i think the reason why people need those loud exhausts stems from deep insecurity in most cases. "look at me". i'm in a loud vehicle. PAY ATTENTION TO ME.
i'm on an anachronism of a bike and have no identity for myself, so i need to adopt one to add meaning to my life.
i'm in a 5000-6000lb vehicle that is no fun to drive and isn't fast at all, but making it loud makes it feel less plebeian.
it's not that sports cars don't do the same thing, but on them, it's less of an incongruity. there loudness actually tends to correlate with speed.
Please let us know when the space shuttle lands.
(yes, I do believe that I've used this one before...but who can cite the actual reference that I stole it from?)
rumatt
08-10-2007, 11:33 AM
It sounds like they wanted to ban "fart tips" but couldn't figure out how to word the law. While I hate fart tips, my problem with this law is that enforcement would be too subjective.
Yep. It's pretty hard to enforce the law, "It's legal if TD likes it, illegal if he doesn't."
Sharp11
08-10-2007, 11:35 AM
And how would you propose testing for maximum dB?
The individual exhaust components are often sold for mutiple vehicles. The vehicles that they are installed on often have other modifications that are likely to impact any sound reading measurements. But sometimes they don't.
If you take the testing out of the controlled conditions of a laboratory, you introduce widely unknown and variable environmental conditions that can change very rapidly. Temperature, cloud level, wind, humidity, and other atmospeheric conditions play a big role in determining the measurement and they are all unstable. If it's field testing, is the test conducted at idle or WOT? Stationary or moving? If moving, how do you factor out tire, intake, and other noise generated by the car? And how do you ensure that it's safe to conduct such a test if it's in motion at WOT? Where do you place the meter in relationship to the car? What about variances in the exhaust output direction? I could keep going...
Oh, and you've used the "tasteful" caveat again. What is fair, equitable, or objective about taste?
You're over thinking the problem.
The product is tested in a lab, if it passes certification, it gets labeled as such when it goes on sale in the marketplace. It becomes "legal".
Otherwise I suppose you could adopt some form of the "boom cars" noise ordinances sweeping the country - it's beautifully simple, these are the ordinances which set a distance from the vehicle as the test; some communities use 50 feet some 75, the idea is if you can hear the car stereo that far away, it's in violation. No sound meters necessary.
If it can be done with car stereos, it can be done with loud exhausts.
Ed
And how would you propose testing for maximum dB?
The individual exhaust components are often sold for mutiple vehicles. The vehicles that they are installed on often have other modifications that are likely to impact any sound reading measurements. But sometimes they don't.
If you take the testing out of the controlled conditions of a laboratory, you introduce widely unknown and variable environmental conditions that can change very rapidly. Temperature, cloud level, wind, humidity, and other atmospeheric conditions play a big role in determining the measurement and they are all unstable. If it's field testing, is the test conducted at idle or WOT? Stationary or moving? If moving, how do you factor out tire, intake, and other noise generated by the car? And how do you ensure that it's safe to conduct such a test if it's in motion at WOT? Where do you place the meter in relationship to the car? What about variances in the exhaust output direction? I could keep going...
Oh, and you've used the "tasteful" caveat again. What is fair, equitable, or objective about taste?
Speaking as a resident of the PRV, where I already have to get my fricking car "safety" inspected every year by knuckle-dragging cretins whose only objective is to fleece me for unnecessary repairs, and emissions inspected by similar gentlemen of questionable motive and skill who try and put my AWD Subaru on a fricking two-wheel roller dyno (!!!) and run fake tests on my almost brand-new M3 because they can't find a spark plug wire, you will perhaps understand why a dB limit on exhausts is not something I want the nanny state to impose upon me.
I live and walk on main streets in Old Town, where jackasses on Harleys love to rev their unmuffled engines pointlessly. Yes, it's annoying. Yes, it's especially annoying when one of these machine-gun exhaust blasts wakes up my kid. But it's not THAT annoying, and I would rather put up with the idiots on Harleys with loud pipes than have to subject myself to the further tender ministrations of Johnny Law or Billy Gas Station Attendant in justifying the level of noise my car makes.
rumatt
08-10-2007, 11:43 AM
who try and put my AWD Subaru on a fricking two-wheel roller dyno
:ack: :ack: :ack:
Sharp11
08-10-2007, 11:51 AM
.....emissions inspected by similar gentlemen of questionable motive and skill who try and put my AWD Subaru on a fricking two-wheel roller dyno (!!!)
Do they put all the awd vehicles on two-wheel roller dynos?
Or was it a simple mistake?
CT did away with its emissions program, it was a colossal waste as it only covered newish cars and exempted every vehicle likely to fail.
It was, though, IMO, a huge windfall and gift from the state to the mob, who garnered all the construction contracts for the stations. I can't prove it, but......
Ed
Do they put all the awd vehicles on two-wheel roller dynos?
Or was it a simple mistake?
CT did away with its emissions program, it was a colossal waste as it only covered newish cars and exempted every vehicle likely to fail.
It was, though, IMO, a huge windfall and gift from the state to the mob, who garnered all the construction contracts for the stations. I can't prove it, but......
Ed
No, it was a mistake--they (obviously) cannot put a Subaru on a two-wheel roller without causing extensive damage to the car and/or their station, and they are not supposed to use two-wheel rollers. But I'm glad that we knew that, 'cause they didn't.
clyde
08-10-2007, 01:25 PM
You're over thinking the problem.
The product is tested in a lab, if it passes certification, it gets labeled as such when it goes on sale in the marketplace. It becomes "legal".
Otherwise I suppose you could adopt some form of the "boom cars" noise ordinances sweeping the country - it's beautifully simple, these are the ordinances which set a distance from the vehicle as the test; some communities use 50 feet some 75, the idea is if you can hear the car stereo that far away, it's in violation. No sound meters necessary.
If it can be done with car stereos, it can be done with loud exhausts.
Ed
That's just it...it can't be done with car stereos...at least not fairly, equitably, and objectively. If you want to leave those three concerns by the wayside, then you're back to TD's subjective "taste" threshold, no matter what criteria you pretend to use.
BahnBaum
08-10-2007, 01:45 PM
You notice them right? Which means you are less likely to run them over.
Exactly. Although these same people are dressed in a manner which tells me safety on a bike isn't an overriding concern. But still, there are some who swear by it being a safety issue.
Alex
Noisy vehicles certainly aren't a new thing, get over it. How quiet do you think the old "rat rods" were? Society seemed to get along just fine.....
http://www.hotrodhotline.com/feature/2006show/06beachhop/assets/images/db_images/db_Rat_Rod.jpg
http://www.sherline.com/images/DLratrod.jpg
Exactly. Although these same people are dressed in a manner which tells me safety on a bike isn't an overriding concern. But still, there are some who swear by it being a safety issue.
Alex
I saw a guy wearing flip-flops the other day. :rolleyes:
Exactly. Although these same people are dressed in a manner which tells me safety on a bike isn't an overriding concern. But still, there are some who swear by it being a safety issue.
Alex
That's a lame reason, IMO. You don't see cyclists strapping airhorns to their seats.
It's obnoxious and overwhelmingly are present in Harely style bikes which are usually a ssociated with the "badass" look. I've not heard a sport bike be nearly as loud as most Harleys.
And like you mention, they seldom sport a safety-conscious outfit and where not against the law, no helmet. And the few guys in my area who have one, have obnoxious exhausts on their massive SUV's too.
In my experience and that of everyone I've ever discussed this with, safety has never been the reason. I know many, many motorcycle guys who know that many more bikers and none have ever mentioned safety as the reason and when they have THEY roll their eyes knowing it's a BS excuse.
I could still be wrong, but those are some long odds. At the very least, statistically, the safety argument doesn't stink in the northeast.
Finally, if you are worried about me hearing you, I don't need to hear you 5 blocks away.
BahnBaum
08-10-2007, 02:09 PM
And the few guys in my area who have one, have obnoxious exhausts on their massive SUV's too.
:eeps:
Alex
BahnBaum
08-10-2007, 02:12 PM
On these matters of loud exhausts on bikes or cars and loud stereos and loud anything, you guys are just wound too tight. That shit just never bothers me. Might not be what I'd choose (well, except for loud v8's on cars and boats), but I'm fine if others want to.
Alex
On these matters of loud exhausts on bikes or cars and loud stereos and loud anything, you guys are just wound too tight. That shit just never bothers me. Might not be what I'd choose (well, except for loud v8's on cars and boats), but I'm fine if others want to.
Alex
First, if your truck has an obnoxious exhaust from the factory, I forgive you. :D
Second, for what it's worth, though it does bug me, I just vent here and in my car and get over it until I hear another one. I'm not supporting legislation, advocating anything. I never give anyone shit for it, etc. I just find it annoying but no more annoying than many other things. I just don't GET it, that's all.
BahnBaum
08-10-2007, 03:10 PM
First, if your truck has an obnoxious exhaust from the factory, I forgive you. :D
ujOlc9XrtsU
Let me tell you that while I would not be drooling over that exhaust, it actually sounds kinda cool and it is not in the same zip code as Harleys with straight pipes when it comes down to annoyance.
I've driven next to that truck a few times and didn't think twice about the exhaust. Seems fine to me. It's a Hrr-Hrr truck with a Hrr-Hrr exhaust.
lemming
08-10-2007, 10:38 PM
outer space, huh?
why? because i think about the psychology of absolutely needing to be loud because you crave so much damn attention? to the detriment of others? i've heard nothing actually touch my point here and this isn't sanctimonious crap, this is actually from me trying to understand the "why" of something.
look, i don't even have kids, but i can tell you when kids visit and are napping and wake up because of the noise, i can still see the parents point of view more than the bikers' live free or die crap attitude.
and for whatever you think about regulating this, there is already a law on the books in massachusetts for dB levels at a fixed distance from the tailpipe with a state approved decibel meter. :shrug:
like anything else, it boils down to enforcement.
John V
08-10-2007, 11:43 PM
I may... MAY... have to put the muffler back on the Boxster.
<------Part of the problem.
clyde
08-11-2007, 02:40 AM
outer space, huh?
yep
why?
Because you spent all your time and energy into justifying your supposition rather than put any effort into exploring the issue.
and for whatever you think about regulating this, there is already a law on the books in massachusetts for dB levels at a fixed distance from the tailpipe with a state approved decibel meter. :shrug:
Plenty of bad laws to go around. For this one, it's just another reason to call the place Assachusetts.
clyde
08-11-2007, 02:41 AM
I may... MAY... have to put the muffler back on the Boxster.
At this point, why not just wait until Oct 1ish?
lemming
08-11-2007, 07:32 AM
yep
Because you spent all your time and energy into justifying your supposition rather than put any effort into exploring the issue.
Plenty of bad laws to go around. For this one, it's just another reason to call the place Assachusetts.
what is there to explore if there is already a law on the books that affects me? police can set a decibel meter 8-10 feet from an exhaust and if the noise exceeds the limit --> citation. this law is not as egregious as "no jack braking zones" or "no commercial truck zones". those actually impede the commerce of the country, though, so i think i'd think more deeply about those laws, their fairness, and their impact on the economy more so than this.
the nominal argument that noise saves lives is what i was addressing more than anything else. unsurprising that such a thoughtful and considerate cross section of society would come up with a fairly thoughtful and well crafted argument as that.
That's just it...it can't be done with car stereos...at least not fairly, equitably, and objectively. If you want to leave those three concerns by the wayside, then you're back to TD's subjective "taste" threshold, no matter what criteria you pretend to use.
Hold on a sec...
I expressed my personal taste opinion (anti-fart tip) but I also noted that laws to enforce this would be highly subjective and therefore decidedly not good. I noted the only objective way to make this a law would be by setting a max decibel level, but we've also now shown examples that would register worse on that front that aren't nearly as annoying as the fart tips.
So you can't do anything but pray this already long fad blows over.
Straight piped harleys (who mysteriously never get into dB trouble) have run up and down the main street of my town most weekend nights for as long as I've lived here. It's an annoyance I try to ignore (interrupts TV or conversation briefly).
But about a month ago - while we were at a red light - one of them pulled up on the right and before my gf & I could close our windows floored it next to us. I swear we have hearing damage from that. :irate:
lemming
08-11-2007, 10:26 AM
Straight piped harleys (who mysteriously never get into dB trouble) have run up and down the main street of my town most weekend nights for as long as I've lived here. It's an annoyance I try to ignore (interrupts TV or conversation briefly).
But about a month ago - while we were at a red light - one of them pulled up on the right and before my gf & I could close our windows floored it next to us. I swear we have hearing damage from that. :irate:
the automotive equivalent of a harley is a cadillac deville from the 1970s (think "shaft") ghetto-ing around with straight pipes and running no cats.
i'm not going to criticize a "lifestyle" i don't understand, but i can be intolerant of the the noise since it's a transgression against others in society.
do you want to know how much my neighbor with a super loud harley appreciated it when i gunned my stingray pointed at his house at 7am on a sunday morning, just to make my point? no --it does not make me better than him, but my car is street legal for noise and it's nice to give as much as i have to take.
he got the point because he doesn't downshift and then gun it running by my house on the street anymore. coincidence? if it is, i'm a lucky fish.
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