View Full Version : C&D Sept. '07 135i Article
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Thanks SCA! But seriously nothing in there we did not already know.
I am chomping at the bit waiting for a REAL test drvie review.
Well, as we've argued weight and price (not just here but all over the interwebs), their "educated guesses" are interesting.
They're guessing 200 lbs lighter than the 3-series coupe (equivalent engine) and a base price of $33K for the 135i.
BMW states that they want the 128i under $30k ($29,995) so I expect the 135i to be $5-6k more.
lemming
08-05-2007, 07:09 PM
i would have guessed $36k for a nicely equipped 135i (PRICEY!) but i don't think the weight delta will be 200lbs. maybe 120lbs when it's said and done.
and it still won't have a mechanical LSD.
interest --> dead.
I keep hearing how dealers believe that the 135i will be a pretty hot seller, expecting long waiting list and of course, no discount off MSRP. Sticker Only! :rolleyes:
lemming
08-05-2007, 07:50 PM
well.
i'm curious about all of this, obviously, as everyone is.
but my wonderment is tempered by the A3 and X3 examples. the A3 maybe is at a disadvantage because it's a no brainer for most practical people to eschew the added cost and to get a GTI.
the X3 --well, there's a case where it's the vehicle to fill the hole for those who find the X5 a little pricey, but there's enough overlap in pricing that i bet when people do the math, a bunch choose the X5 because it's a flat out nicer vehicle.
so, if the leasing differential between the 135 and a 328 or a 335 is large enough, i see it doing well. but if it's close, i still say most people will get the 3 series.
who wouldn't? i would.
a much nicer car for not much more money?
SARAFIL
08-05-2007, 08:17 PM
so, if the leasing differential between the 135 and a 328 or a 335 is large enough, i see it doing well. but if it's close, i still say most people will get the 3 series.
who wouldn't? i would.
a much nicer car for not much more money?
^^what he said...
When my lease is up on the M, I'm considering a 135 but if the price difference is not big enough I'd probably get a 335 coupe. The only other way the 135 would win would be if the performance/handling were significantly better than the 335.
DamnYank!
08-06-2007, 02:19 AM
doesn't seem exceptional for the price...
John V
08-06-2007, 08:01 AM
Seems like a total rip-off for the price.
If BMW sets the base MSRP at $33k for the 135i, they will sell them all day long. $33k for a BMW with 300hp and 300 ft-lbs. of torque is not bad, especially given what buyers received in the past from BMW at that price.
lemming
08-06-2007, 11:32 AM
i think it'll be at the same ratio or worse for what we already see for the 335:328 and the historical 330:325 ratio.
it's usually 3 or 4:1 in terms of sales.
and just to inject a dose of reality, 33k in reality means 40k out the door --in terms of x3 3.0si pricing, the base is 38k, but as tested recently, the total price was 46.5k. how many takers will there be at that pricing point? it's unclear to me and i won't even predict. it limits itself by only coming in the 2 door configuration, then it's expensive, and then it's going to be significantly downmarket.
If BMW sets the base MSRP at $33k for the 135i, they will sell them all day long. $33k for a BMW with 300hp and 300 ft-lbs. of torque is not bad, especially given what buyers received in the past from BMW at that price.
There are a lot of variables that will go into this. How many is BMW planning to sell? 10,000 per year? 25,000? 50,000?
At the end of the day, the only real competition that the 135 faces is from the 335. As I've said before, if BMW does what Audi did and continues to subvent leases on the 335 without doing the same on the 135, I think the market for that car is going to be tiny. I'm sure that they'll be able to sell 10K, but I wouldn't imagine they'll sell a lot more than that. OTOH, if the price difference between the 135 and 335 is "real" (in leasing terms) they will sell a lot more.
and just to inject a dose of reality, 33k in reality means 40k out the door
If you're the type that likes to load the cars up with options like PP, NAV, etc. I'm usually not one of those persons, and if they could be had for $33K, I'd be paying very close to $33K.
If a person could get a 135i for $33K, and it met my back seat space requirements (which it most likely won't), I'd probably be fairly interested.
If you're the type that likes to load the cars up with options like PP, NAV, etc. I'm usually not one of those persons, and if they could be had for $33K, I'd be paying very close to $33K.
If a person could get a 135i for $33K, and it met my back seat space requirements (which it most likely won't), I'd probably be fairly interested.
Exactly, skip some of the options and it should not be that bad. I did the same on the E90 and it helped greatly.
Anyone complaining about the price of the 135i at $33K base is really only highlighting how much of a steal the 335i is in the low $40Ks.
For what it is, $33K+ for the 135i is a hell of a deal.
lemming
08-06-2007, 12:07 PM
Anyone complaining about the price of the 135i at $33K base is really only highlighting how much of a steal the 335i is in the low $40Ks.
For what it is, $33K+ for the 135i is a hell of a deal.
two thoughts on this:
1. we'll see if it's such a great deal at a base price of 33k. it may vary for most of us for what we think a car should have for 33k.
2. like several of us already noted, if the money factors and subsidized leases come into play like they did for the X3 and Z4, they'll move plenty of 135i's. but i somehow think most of the trunk moneys will be levied onto the 128.
Anyone complaining about the price of the 135i at $33K base is really only highlighting how much of a steal the 335i is in the low $40Ks.
For what it is, $33K+ for the 135i is a hell of a deal.
:+1
but i somehow think most of the trunk moneys will be levied onto the 128.
If that's the case, I'd be OK with a 128i too. More power than the 330i had, and [evidently] about the same weight. Cheaper insurance, cheaper out-the door price. It's still a winning situation, assuming again that the interior dimensions are satisfactory.
undefined
08-06-2007, 12:47 PM
with BMW's typically high resale, a one year old 135i should be one of the best deals around, when considering the only thing that really matters--cost of ownership.
lemming
08-06-2007, 01:29 PM
with BMW's typically high resale, a one year old 135i should be one of the best deals around, when considering the only thing that really matters--cost of ownership.
i don't really understand what you're saying here.
it seems like two very disparate thoughts, aty?
i don't really understand what you're saying here.
it seems like two very disparate thoughts, aty?
I puzzled about that, too. If the resale value is high, a new 135 seems like a good bet; you won't get too much of a break on a year-old car.
I think I figured out what he means, but I am not going to post it because I find his terseness irritating. If he wants to explain his point, he has fingers and a keyboard.
undefined
08-06-2007, 02:11 PM
bmws still take a good depreciation hit after one year, but after that it levels out very nicely
seems obvious enough
rumatt
08-06-2007, 03:30 PM
seems obvious enough
It was pretty unclear.
I was able to take a pretty good guess at what you meant, but didn't say. :mad2:
rumatt
08-06-2007, 03:30 PM
seems obvious enough
It was pretty unclear.
I was able to take a good guess at what you meant, but didn't say. :mad2:
undefined
08-06-2007, 04:19 PM
maybe I should just post everything twice and it will make more sense
I understood what he was saying. He was being sarcastic about BMW resale value in the first year. If more of you guys would buy brand new and sell after just one year, you'd know that. sheesh. ;) ;) :D
rumatt
08-06-2007, 04:23 PM
maybe I should just post everything twice and it will make more sense
no
rumatt
08-06-2007, 04:24 PM
maybe I should just post everything twice and it will make more sense
no
undefined
08-06-2007, 04:29 PM
He was being sarcastic about BMW resale value in the first year.
not really
rumatt
08-06-2007, 04:31 PM
He was being sarcastic about BMW resale value in the first year. If more of you guys would buy brand new and sell after just one year, you'd know that. sheesh. ;) ;)
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n243/garethpostans/not_this_shit_again.jpg
:D
DamnYank!
08-06-2007, 04:33 PM
'lightly' pre-owned at a better price sounds like a winning recipe to me!
'lightly' pre-owned at a better price sounds like a winning recipe to me!
"Lightly" is the key word. As you know, not everyone is as anal as you and I about their vehicles.
DamnYank!
08-06-2007, 05:18 PM
"Lightly" is the key word. As you know, not everyone is as anal as you and I about their vehicles.
true, but i'd rather take the time and put forth the effort to find a slightly used car meeting my standards at a significant savings then go get butthurt by the dealer for 'new' pricing.
:cool:
true, but i'd rather take the time and put forth the effort to find a slightly used car meeting my standards at a significant savings then go get butthurt by the dealer for 'new' pricing.
:cool:
Unfortunately that is easier said than done at least 90% of the time. Plus an individual who has a "lightly" (well-kept) vehicle usually demands a premium.
lemming
08-06-2007, 05:28 PM
maybe i've become too practical, but also due to a multicar approach (one dedicated commuter and one focused sports car) --but the $38k USD i would have to spend to get a 135i (2 door configuration) seems sort of laughable to me.
and maybe i'm the only one laughing.
but this car isn't going to do fuel efficiency well. it doesn't do space well.
so, in this price range, i can think of other cars with about the same power to weight ratio, RWD, but can come with a mechanical LSD. that's all.
DamnYank!
08-06-2007, 05:33 PM
Unfortunately that is easier said than done at least 90% of the time. Plus an individual who has a "lightly" (well-kept) vehicle usually demands a premium.
these aren't collectable cars. they aren't museum pieces. sounds like you are making excuses for buying brand new to me... ;)
these aren't collectable cars. they aren't museum pieces. sounds like you are making excuses for buying brand new to me... ;)
The 135i will not be on the market for another 9 months. I do not foresee the option of buying one used anytime soon.
DamnYank!
08-06-2007, 05:46 PM
The 135i will not be on the market for another 9 months. I do not foresee the option of buying one used anytime soon.
all the more reason to get an e36 m3 :D
maybe i've become too practical, but also due to a multicar approach (one dedicated commuter and one focused sports car) --but the $38k USD i would have to spend to get a 135i (2 door configuration) seems sort of laughable to me.
and maybe i'm the only one laughing.
but this car isn't going to do fuel efficiency well. it doesn't do space well.
so, in this price range, i can think of other cars with about the same power to weight ratio, RWD, but can come with a mechanical LSD. that's all.
Like what? A Mustang? A G37? Neither of those cars is going to do fuel efficiency or space well.
all the more reason to get an e36 m3 :D
Ummm got that covered here and I am still waiting for a NEW 135i.
lemming
08-06-2007, 06:30 PM
Like what? A Mustang? A G37? Neither of those cars is going to do fuel efficiency or space well.
that's what i mean.
if i already know a priori that i'm giving up practicality, space and fuel efficiency (sort of what i expect from the 1 series --am i off base?) --then i ask myself why fixate on it?
why wouldn't i get the new STi when it comes out for the same/less money? that will be as fast/faster, better space, same/better fuel efficiency.
or does it always go back to the hood ornament for most people?
John V
08-06-2007, 06:37 PM
Because the driving experience of an STi sucks?
lemming
08-06-2007, 06:43 PM
Because the driving experience of an STi sucks?
and i can already guess the 135i is already that much better?
i guess vaporware versus vaporware is fair. :)
undefined
08-06-2007, 07:19 PM
why wouldn't i get the new STi when it comes out for the same/less money? that will be as fast/faster, better space, same/better fuel efficiency.
because over the course of ownership, the STi will most likely be MORE expensive, not same/less
DamnYank!
08-06-2007, 07:29 PM
because over the course of ownership, the STi will most likely be MORE expensive, not same/less
do you say that because resale value is likely to be much lower / greater depreciation? or are you saying the STi will cost more in upkeep / repairs?
undefined
08-06-2007, 07:35 PM
both?
both?
DY (DB ;))breifly owned a STi, and I have to admit I was always impressed with it. I never drove it though, I was only a passenger. I will let him give the specifics if he so desires.
lemming
08-06-2007, 08:02 PM
aty: trending supports you, but you have no idea how to guess how the slow selling 1er will do. it's already a known sales failure in Europe so i don't think you can apply the same 3er business model immediately on it, esp. in its first generation in the US.
aty: trending supports you, but you have no idea how to guess how the slow selling 1er will do. it's already a known sales failure in Europe so i don't think you can apply the same 3er business model immediately on it, esp. in its first generation in the US.
There are two sides to the 1er Coupe. Naturally it will appeal more to badge buyers than the 3er based solely on price, but if AG has revised the suspension of the coupe and it handles & performs really well then I suspect some diehards will get in line and purchase a 135i (me included). I agree that the reports from Europe regarding the hatches have not been a positive one, but one would suspect that BMW AG has knowledge of this coming into an even tougher NA market.:dunno:
lemming
08-06-2007, 09:34 PM
There are two sides to the 1er Coupe. Naturally it will appeal more to badge buyers than the 3er based solely on price, but if AG has revised the suspension of the coupe and it handles & performs really well then I suspect some diehards will get in line and purchase a 135i (me included). I agree that the reports from Europe regarding the hatches have not been a positive one, but one would suspect that BMW AG has knowledge to this coming into an even tougher NA market.:dunno:
all i'm saying is that there is a reason why the 1er is a slow seller in Europe --it could boil simply down to cost and how it's taxed. :dunno:
but i'm not anointing this car anything until i see the interior and how it can/cannot put 300ft#'s to the ground without a limited slip differential.
DamnYank!
08-06-2007, 11:02 PM
owned a 03 WRX for about 2 1/2 yrs and put just over 60k on it. had a 04 STi for about a year, put about 15k on it. both cars were absolutely trouble free. several friends owned WRX's as well and had similar experiences. granted, i'm not talking with 5 yrs ownership under my belt on these cars, but outside of depriciation, i think an STi is going to be much cheaper to 'own'.
undefined
08-06-2007, 11:29 PM
outside of depriciation, i think an STi is going to be much cheaper to 'own'.
that's a big outside
also, BMWs come with free maintenance for 4 years, so they cost pretty much nothing except for tires in that time
DamnYank!
08-06-2007, 11:36 PM
that's a big outside
also, BMWs come with free maintenance for 4 years, so they cost pretty much nothing except for tires in that time
true... but a lot of people are talking leases here so thats a factor. and while yrs of free maint are fine for some ppl, others might not like BMWs service intervals.
true... but a lot of people are talking leases here so thats a factor. and while yrs of free maint are fine for some ppl, others might not like BMWs service intervals.
:stupid: , but... if I am leasing a BMW I guarantee you that I will only service it when they are paying for it. It is not my car. :bustingup
true... but a lot of people are talking leases here so thats a factor. and while yrs of free maint are fine for some ppl, others might not like BMWs service intervals.
Lease a BMW for 2 or 3 years, and your cost of ownership is clearly established up front.
And why pay for additional maintenance on *their* car?
:stupid: , but... if I am leasing a BMW I guarantee you that I will only service it when they are paying for it. It is not my car. :bustingup
I've got a couple of minor things wrong with my E90 right now: the steering column lock is hosed which makes starting the car annoyingly difficult at times and there is some loud squeaking coming from the right rear hub. From a search at the Fest, I think it's some sensor that's loose and dragging on the brake rotor, getting ground up in the process.
But it's got 9K miles to go until the next free service, so it can wait. Sure, it's annoying. But far less annoying than setting foot in my local dealership. And, hey, it's not my car. If it fucks something else up, they can fix that as well.
lemming
08-07-2007, 08:11 AM
that's a big outside
also, BMWs come with free maintenance for 4 years, so they cost pretty much nothing except for tires in that time
the following 3 blurbs are from the Roundel:
I. cars.com residual values for 2007:
1. MINI cooper 68% (value after 3 years)
2. WRX STi 63%
3. 650iC 62%
4. Tacoma 62%
5. Mustang GT, A4 cabrio 61.96%
7. 911 61.3%
8. Wrangler 61%
9. Beetle cabrio
10. rabbit
II. "return of the 2002" --won't happen until 2011 when the tii moniker will return
III. Roundel, page 34, August 2007:
"Revving up the 1 series: BMW hopes th 1 series coupe and convertible will generate some buzz for Munich's slow selling small cars. As reported earlier, an M1 coupe and convertible are also in development, most likely powered by the S54.....These are the 1 Series models that will be sold here, BMW's largest market, beginning next year."
three sets of data that tell me that waiting for the 1 series v2.0 in the US wouldn't be a bad thing.
John V
08-07-2007, 08:27 AM
and i can already guess the 135i is already that much better?
i guess vaporware versus vaporware is fair. :)
I suppose nobody knows if the next STi will drive as shitty as the current one does. Maybe the revised suspension will allow the thing to actually turn and not just bounce around all the time.
Lease a BMW for 2 or 3 years, and your cost of ownership is clearly established up front.
And why pay for additional maintenance on *their* car?
True. Hell, I changed the oil for them at 7500 miles on their ZHP, but since they've gotten rid of the dipstick on the E90, I won't even bother to do that. Let it run until its service interval.
lemming
08-07-2007, 09:33 AM
True. Hell, I changed the oil for them at 7500 miles on their ZHP, but since they've gotten rid of the dipstick on the E90, I won't even bother to do that. Let it run until its service interval.
you guys are giving me nothing but positive reinforcement to avoid CPO cars forever. thank you.
:)
.....even more so on the lowest cost bidder assembled car in the lineup.
As reported earlier, an M1 coupe and convertible are also in development, most likely powered by the S54.
I rather have the N54 vs. the S54. The S54 has never done a thing for me. :ack:
you guys are giving me nothing but positive reinforcement to avoid CPO cars forever. thank you.
I haven't seen a lot of evidence that non-auto-enthusiasts are any more mindful of regular maintenance on their purchased cars either. And that's why I have a really hard time considering buying a used car unless I know the previous owner. The CPO warranty helps ease some of the concerns of buying used, but it's no guarantee that the car still won't spend a good deal of time in the shop.
John V
08-07-2007, 09:55 AM
I rather have the N54 vs. the S54. The S54 has never done a thing for me. :ack:
This man speaketh the truth.
lemming
08-07-2007, 09:59 AM
This man speaketh the truth.
boot-licker.
(imagine that iron block engine in "little" 1er --curb weight instantly jumps 220 more lbs).
you guys are giving me nothing but positive reinforcement to avoid CPO cars forever. thank you.
There is some real shit (lease turn-in) that goes through the CPO process, but occasionally there is something that goes through worth buying. It is rare though.
John V
08-07-2007, 10:30 AM
boot-licker.
(imagine that iron block engine in "little" 1er --curb weight instantly jumps 220 more lbs).
Exactly why it isn't appealing. Oh, and the fact that it's reliability is questionable at best, and the fact that it sounds like crap.
Exactly why it isn't appealing. Oh, and the fact that it's reliability is questionable at best, and the fact that it sounds like crap.
Yup, that pretty much sums that up.
Exactly why it isn't appealing. Oh, and the fact that it's reliability is questionable at best, and the fact that it sounds like crap.
And that the N54 is so good.
Though I will say that after JV schooled me on the difference between turbo lag and boost threshold, I've been paying attention--and the N54 has turbo lag. It's not significant; on the street you only notice it if you get caught in way too high a gear for the speed you are going. But it's there, and it's especially annoying on autocross courses where there are slow second-gear corners. Tromping on the gas gives...you...nothin...HOLYSHITHEREITCOMES.
Sharp11
08-07-2007, 11:24 AM
I can never remember all the code letters for BMW engines, but the 3.0 liter engine originally placed in the E90 and currently available in only the Z4 3.0si and X3/x5 3.0 si models has got to be one of their best ever - it's light, powerful enough and sewing-machine smooth.
If the company had put that engine, not the detuned 128 version, into the one series shell they'd have had a really nicely balanced, lighter weight model with true appeal and a lower price - a 130si :dunno:
Instead, BMW, like everyone else, has caved into the more HP is better mantra, to the point where their twin turbo engine is a step backward in weight, reliability and design (it's based on an older engine for christ sakes).
No thanks.....
Ed
I can never remember all the code letters for BMW engines, but the 3.0 liter engine originally placed in the E90 and currently available in only the Z4 3.0si and X3/x5 3.0 si models has got to be one of their best ever - it's light, powerful enough and sewing-machine smooth.
If the company had put that engine, not the detuned 128 version, into the one series shell they'd have had a really nicely balanced, lighter weight model with true appeal and a lower price - a 130si :dunno:
Instead, BMW, like everyone else, has caved into the more HP is better mantra, to the point where their twin turbo engine is a step backward in weight, reliability and design (it's based on an older engine for christ sakes).
No thanks.....
Ed
Perhaps it's just my knuckle-dragging ways, but I've driven a 330 with that engine, and its...meh. Yes, it's smooth, but it's so smooth that it lacks any sense of drama or occasion. It's nice, but not fun.
The turbo engine, OTOH, is fun. And it's hardly a step backward in terms of design, or weight for that matter, given how much power it makes.
Perhaps it's just my knuckle-dragging ways, but I've driven a 330 with that engine, and its...meh. Yes, it's smooth, but it's so smooth that it lacks any sense of drama or occasion. It's nice, but not fun.
The turbo engine, OTOH, is fun. And it's hardly a step backward in terms of design, or weight for that matter, given how much power it makes.
Hey!
Hey!
You still haven't driven a 335, have you?
We need to get together at some point before it starts snowing again. :lol:
John V
08-07-2007, 12:10 PM
I haven't driven an N54 so I can't comment.
One thing I miss about my E36 M3 is how the 3.0L engine would zing to redline with real purpose. The Porsche's torque curve is pretty flat across the band which is great for going fast, but it's not that exciting. The M3 seemed to make more torque with revs and while it had adequate torque at low RPM, it really shined up high.
Are the current non-turbo BMW engines like that? Or do they seem kind of flat across the band?
One thing I miss about my E36 M3 is how the 3.0L engine would zing to redline with real purpose.
That's one of the things I really miss about the S2000.
I can never remember all the code letters for BMW engines, but the 3.0 liter engine originally placed in the E90 and currently available in only the Z4 3.0si and X3/x5 3.0 si models has got to be one of their best ever - it's light, powerful enough and sewing-machine smooth.
If the company had put that engine, not the detuned 128 version, into the one series shell they'd have had a really nicely balanced, lighter weight model with true appeal and a lower price - a 130si :dunno:
Ed
I agree, the N52 in the 330i, X3 3.0si, and X5 3.0si would have been perfect for the 1er coupe.
you guys are giving me nothing but positive reinforcement to avoid CPO cars forever. thank you.
:+1
:eek: :ack:
If 'mudgeons have that attitude, I shudder to think what other people are like.
Exactly why it isn't appealing. Oh, and the fact that it's reliability is questionable at best, and the fact that it sounds like crap.
I also agree with this which is why I will not own mine out of warrenty and its getting sold for the 135i.
Not to mention I might actaully MAKE money in the transition.
lupinsea
08-07-2007, 02:56 PM
That's one of the things I really miss about the S2000.
:+1 about my Miata. It certainly didn't have the power of your S2000 but that little engine really revved nicely. Had just enough roughness to it that it was really invigorating to send to redline. And it was fast to rev, too.
The ZHP by comparison is a slug of an engine. By the time the needle starts moving the Miata would have jumped by 3000 rpm. That and the throttle lag on the ZHP is annoying. . . still haven't gotten used to it after 1+ year of driving it. Plus it's like the engine is almost too smooth. . . sounds good, though, and still a lot of fun. And the torque is nice.
That and the throttle lag on the ZHP is annoying. . . still haven't gotten used to it after 1+ year of driving it.
You'll never get used to it. You should feel the throttle lag on our ES330. Makes the throttle on the bimmer feel like that of an F1 car.
all the more reason to get an e36 m3 :D
Like this one!! =O
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Immaculate-BMW-1995-18-500-miles_W0QQitemZ250151737122QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m250151737122
Only 18K miles 95 OBD 1 (Not old dirty bastard) ha
Jeff_DML
08-08-2007, 12:20 AM
Like this one!! =O
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Immaculate-BMW-1995-18-500-miles_W0QQitemZ250151737122QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m250151737122
Only 18K miles 95 ODB 1
wow, pretty sweet, close to me:)
John V
08-08-2007, 08:00 AM
Ugh, wrong exterior color, wrong interior color, has the "luxury" package with the sucky seats and the fake wood....
Other than that, great car!
Ugh, wrong exterior color, wrong interior color, has the "luxury" package with the sucky seats and the fake wood....
Other than that, great car!
LOL... Exactly what I was thinking.
lemming
08-08-2007, 10:15 AM
LOL... Exactly what I was thinking.
guaranteed to have at least two major bodyshop visits.
:D
low mileage has nothing to do with keeping on the estate. no one actually kept any e36m3s with low miles except for the LTWs.
and....i'd argue there's never a reason to; they're not bespoke cars and haven't been since the e30m3.
John V
08-08-2007, 11:09 AM
The E30 M3 wasn't a "bespoke" car. It was a factory made car, just like any other.
There are lots of low mileage E36 M3s. Who knows how many are out there that aren't for sale, but I found several when I was hunting for mine back in 2002. They come up on eBay every once in a while, and if you open up Roundel, you'll see one pop up every couple months. The owners almost always want silly money for them... which never made sense to me. So many of those cars were made that they'll never be worth anything.
Ugh, wrong exterior color, wrong interior color, has the "luxury" package with the sucky seats and the fake wood....
Other than that, great car!
Everyone is a critic!! =P
lemming
08-08-2007, 01:52 PM
The E30 M3 wasn't a "bespoke" car. It was a factory made car, just like any other.
There are lots of low mileage E36 M3s. Who knows how many are out there that aren't for sale, but I found several when I was hunting for mine back in 2002. They come up on eBay every once in a while, and if you open up Roundel, you'll see one pop up every couple months. The owners almost always want silly money for them... which never made sense to me. So many of those cars were made that they'll never be worth anything.
J: i owned the US spec M3 and M coupe and there was nothing special about them. they were the definition of "kludge" and nothing more than a bored and stroked 328 made solely for the US, so anyone thinking that they're a special car (especially with only one throttle body) is crazy.
the e30m3, at the very least, was one of the first cars to come with special fenders and associated bodywork plus a handbuilt engine. for BMW, it was as close to bespoke for a 3series as the E46M3 CSL, IMO.
John V
08-08-2007, 02:00 PM
J: i owned the US spec M3 and M coupe and there was nothing special about them. they were the definition of "kludge" and nothing more than a bored and stroked 328 made solely for the US, so anyone thinking that they're a special car (especially with only one throttle body) is crazy.
If you value driving experience, the E36 M3 is a more special car than the E46 M3 was. If you value technology for the sake of bragging rights and boy-racer-wannabe stuff, then the E46 M3 is a more special car. I wouldn't define the E36 M3 to be kludgey at all, actually I thought the overall experience of the car was pretty amazing for a BMW. But it wasn't a race car, not even close. It was an excellent street car, and it was leaps and bounds better than the 325 and 328 of the same generation out of the box. Even the LTW isn't really "special," they just didn't make a whole lot of them.
The E30 was a legitimate race car replica, with a pretty unreliable, underpowered and buzzy engine, a harsh ride, and all the boy-racer acoutrements. But the boy-racer acountrements are less silly on this car because it was also an excellent-driving car. It's the one that makes you want to put on driving gloves and a helmet to drive to work. By that token, it's special.
the e30m3, at the very least, was one of the first cars to come with special fenders and associated bodywork plus a handbuilt engine. for BMW, it was as close to bespoke for a 3series as the E46M3 CSL, IMO.
If you go by the definition of "bespoke" then BMW has not made a "bespoke" car since the M1. In the realm of cars, that term really doesn't mean a whole lot unless you're talking uber-exotic machinery where a worker's hands are pretty much in constant contact with the car - Ferraris and the like. To apply it to a BMW is comical.
If you value driving experience, the E36 M3 is a more special car than the E46 M3 was. If you value technology for the sake of bragging rights and boy-racer-wannabe stuff, then the E46 M3 is a more special car. I wouldn't define the E36 M3 to be kludgey at all, actually I thought the overall experience of the car was pretty amazing for a BMW. But it wasn't a race car, not even close. It was an excellent street car, and it was leaps and bounds better than the 325 and 328 of the same generation out of the box. Even the LTW isn't really "special," they just didn't make a whole lot of them.
The E30 was a legitimate race car replica, with a pretty unreliable, underpowered and buzzy engine, a harsh ride, and all the boy-racer acoutrements. But the boy-racer acountrements are less silly on this car because it was also an excellent-driving car. It's the one that makes you want to put on driving gloves and a helmet to drive to work. By that token, it's special.
If you go by the definition of "bespoke" then BMW has not made a "bespoke" car since the M1. In the realm of cars, that term really doesn't mean a whole lot unless you're talking uber-exotic machinery where a worker's hands are pretty much in constant contact with the car - Ferraris and the like. To apply it to a BMW is comical.
Bespoke actually means, in the world of tailoring, a custom set of clothes, made to order:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bespoke
BMW thus has made a lot of "bespoke" cars; arguably the one that I am driving is "bespoke." At the very least, I would argue that the Individual program produces "bespoke" cars.
I continue to think, technical chauvinism aside, that the E36 M3 was a very, very good car. Better, in fact, in every way than the E30 M3 (which, in fairness, I've only driven once). It wasn't meant to be a race car, but then again the only M cars that ever have been are the E30 M3 and the M1, and the M1 was a pretty spectacular failure from a racing standpoint. But as JV says, it was a GREAT street car, even with the US market engine. It was head and shoulders above nearly everything else on the road at the time, and even today the performance it offers is respectable.
Will it be worth a lot of money some day? Seems unlikely. If I were stocking a museum, I would always choose the E30 over the E36. But if I were looking for a car to drive on the street, the E36 would be my choice.
lemming
08-08-2007, 03:08 PM
If you value driving experience, the E36 M3 is a more special car than the E46 M3 was. If you value technology for the sake of bragging rights and boy-racer-wannabe stuff, then the E46 M3 is a more special car. I wouldn't define the E36 M3 to be kludgey at all, actually I thought the overall experience of the car was pretty amazing for a BMW. But it wasn't a race car, not even close. It was an excellent street car, and it was leaps and bounds better than the 325 and 328 of the same generation out of the box. Even the LTW isn't really "special," they just didn't make a whole lot of them.
The E30 was a legitimate race car replica, with a pretty unreliable, underpowered and buzzy engine, a harsh ride, and all the boy-racer acoutrements. But the boy-racer acountrements are less silly on this car because it was also an excellent-driving car. It's the one that makes you want to put on driving gloves and a helmet to drive to work. By that token, it's special.
If you go by the definition of "bespoke" then BMW has not made a "bespoke" car since the M1. In the realm of cars, that term really doesn't mean a whole lot unless you're talking uber-exotic machinery where a worker's hands are pretty much in constant contact with the car - Ferraris and the like. To apply it to a BMW is comical.
if we set semantics aside for a moment, or even allow for a looser interpretation of bespoke, you can see that your analysis makes my point for me. i never said the m3 wasn't a fine car, all i meant to imply was that i don't see that it's a special car worth paying collector money for it.
if the e30m3 gets trashed in the process, i can't say that i am emotionally really vested there, i was doing more of a comparison of how close to true Motorsport the respective cars are and how that translates into provenance as well as residuals.
fact is, i was completely underwhelmed by the e30m3 driving experience, at the track no less! and the sole reason i pursued supercharging of my M coupe is that i found the S52 severely wanting in terms of AUC power. that sucker is a peaky powerplant with that weird VANOS dip (read: loss of power) at 3800rpms. i learned to loathe it over time when i acclimatized to the power delivery.
fast forward to the 135i: with everything i've written, i'd still rather own an e36m3 than the 135i.
Sharp11
08-08-2007, 03:28 PM
fast forward to the 135i: with everything i've written, i'd still rather own an e36m3 than the 135i.
I'm reserving final judgement, after all, what if a test drive proves the 135 to be fun as hell?
I have to remind myself I passed on an E92, both in 328 and 335 guise because I didn't feel either was fun :dunno: - my convertible, though obviously slower than the 335 (and probably the 328 as well) is in another department wrt driving fun, especially sans top - the thing, even with its lack of rigidity, is pure driving pleasure.
If the 135 proves this much fun.....well, I'll have to eat my own words.....or my shorts, or something like that.
Ed
John V
08-08-2007, 04:55 PM
if we set semantics aside for a moment, or even allow for a looser interpretation of bespoke, you can see that your analysis makes my point for me.
Your point was was what, exactly, then? :?
You should have driven an S50-powered M3. No 3800 RPM dip, and a much more satisfying rush to redline, with none of the throttle hang or high-RPM sluggishness of the S52, and only a small loss of low-end torque. :)
undefined
08-08-2007, 05:26 PM
fast forward to the 135i: with everything i've written, i'd still rather own an e36m3 than the 135i.
i thought you liked fast cars
i thought you liked fast cars
ha. Its all relative. In 95 the E36 M3 WAS considered fast.
Josh (PA)
08-08-2007, 10:34 PM
ha. Its all relative. In 95 the E36 M3 WAS considered fast.
There is something special about the e36m3. It has nothing to do with # of throttle bodies, or weight or production volume or amount of hand craftmenship. I can't really explain it, but I've driven a large number of other cars that don't provide the total experience the e36 m3 provides. I love it, and have yet to find any car that provides a better sensory experience than it does. This includes cars like the boxster, the s2k, the zhp, etc.
John V
08-08-2007, 10:39 PM
There is something special about the e36m3. It has nothing to do with # of throttle bodies, or weight or production volume or amount of hand craftmenship. I can't really explain it, but I've driven a large number of other cars that don't provide the total experience the e36 m3 provides. I love it, and have yet to find any car that provides a better sensory experience than it does. This includes cars like the boxster, the s2k, the zhp, etc.
:+1. It's a great car, even to this day.
DamnYank!
08-08-2007, 10:52 PM
kinda have to agree with Josh. i wanted an e36 m3 since about 97... i just LOVED the car. i've had a good variety of cars, several with more power than my 95 m3, and i would venture to say that the M is the car i most enjoy driving out of all the ones i've owned. i guess to me that kind of defines a really 'great' car (and is a very personal decision)... a car that might not have all the power, all the bells and whistles, etc BUT creates a driving experience that seems almost 'perfect'.
The E36 M3 is the best car I've ever owned as well. Sure, it doesn't win anything on paper. But it's just so great to drive.
I sometimes ponder getting another one one day but then I remind myself of how many cars there are that I'd like to own and how short life is. So no repeats.
zcasavant
08-08-2007, 11:43 PM
The E36 M3 is the best car I've ever owned as well. Sure, it doesn't win anything on paper. But it's just so great to drive.
I sometimes ponder getting another one one day but then I remind myself of how many cars there are that I'd like to own and how short life is. So no repeats.
Yeah, it's a great car. I can't bring myself to part with mine despite the choppy ride, budget interior, non-intermitent wipers, slowness (by today's standards), shitty stereo, and 129k miles.
John V
08-09-2007, 07:30 AM
You can fix the slowness, and for not very much money, too. :D
zcasavant
08-09-2007, 08:17 AM
You can fix the slowness, and for not very much money, too. :D
I don't think I'm ready to strap a supercharger or turbo to it, sadly.
John V
08-09-2007, 08:41 AM
I wasn't talking about that.
zcasavant
08-09-2007, 08:47 AM
I wasn't talking about that.
If not, then define "cheap."
John V
08-09-2007, 09:21 AM
HFM: around $100
Chip: around $250
Cold-air intake and associated hose connectors for HFM, $150
25-30 additional horsepower, priceless?
zcasavant
08-09-2007, 09:24 AM
HFM: around $100
Chip: around $250
Cold-air intake and associated hose connectors for HFM, $150
25-30 additional horsepower, priceless?
I had no idea that was possible -- even on an OBDII?
John V
08-09-2007, 09:28 AM
Sure, the only thing you give up with OBDII is you have a sh1tty intake manifold and some weird engine-control tuning that just hurts driveability but not max power. The 3.5" HFM mod has been around forever for the E36 M3.
Don't do it Zach. Save your pennies for your next car. That is what I do.:dunno:
zcasavant
08-09-2007, 10:32 AM
Don't do it Zach. Save your pennies for your next car. That is what I do.:dunno:
What next car? Unless the m3 explodes or is otherwise totalled, there is no real reason for us to get a different car. Neither of us drives to work and the car just sits in the garage all week. I literally go weeks without even seeing the thing.
If it were totalled tomorrow, I suppose I'd just lease a 335i for lack of any better ideas.
Edit: actually, if it were totalled tomorrow, I might just replace it with another e36 M3.
What next car? Unless the m3 explodes or is otherwise totalled, there is no real reason for us to get a different car. Neither of us drives to work and the car just sits in the garage all week. I literally go weeks without even seeing the thing.
If it were totalled tomorrow, I suppose I'd just lease a 335i for lack of any better ideas.
Edit: actually, if it were totalled tomorrow, I might just replace it with another e36 M3.
I had no idea you were driving it so little.:grouphug:
zcasavant
08-09-2007, 12:16 PM
I had no idea you were driving it so little.:grouphug:
It's ok. When I do drive it, it feels awesome, and I love the 7 minute walk to work I have now.
New interior pic from a 1 soft top from 1addicts
That interior looks just fine to me. I do like the "open" bin in front of the shifter much better then the cheap little hinged door. I hope we will get to choose.
Thats also the first pic I have seen of the Nav closed. Not so bad.
This also looks to be a non sport car. The seats seem less bolstered.
But weight is GOOD, right?
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2564674&postcount=106
lupinsea
08-10-2007, 02:52 PM
New interior pic from a 1 soft top from 1addicts
That interior looks just fine to me. I do like the "open" bin in front of the shifter much better then the cheap little hinged door. I hope we will get to choose.
Thats also the first pic I have seen of the Nav closed. Not so bad.
This also looks to be a non sport car. The seats seem less bolstered.
Hm, . . are you sure that's a 1 series? I mean, I don't see anything that indicates it's a BMW. :eeps: It's disguised so well.
For comparison:
BMW 135i: (Length × Width × Height in) 171.7 × 68.8 × 55.4
Porsche Cayman S: (Length × Width × Height in) 172.1 × 70.9 × 51.4
Acura RSX-S: 172.2 X 67.9 X 54.7
It might be to too small of a vehicle for my needs?
E46 Coupe: 176.7 X 69.2 X 53.9
E30 M3: 171.0 X 66.1 X 53.9 in
Hmm...the E30 M3 & E46 share the same height.
E46 Coupe: 176.7 X 69.2 X 53.9
I think its interesting that the E46 and the E87 are almost the same width. I my mind the E46 seems a lot wider.
I think its interesting that the E46 and the E87 are almost the same width. I my mind the E46 seems a lot wider.
E87 is the 5 door. You mean the E82 (coupe)?
E87 is the 5 door. You mean the E82 (coupe)?
Yes, thanks for the correction. =)
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