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Rob
07-12-2007, 02:55 PM
Interesting NY Times article:

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/07/12/is-the-bmw-m3-too-perfect/


Last weekend I caught up on some early reviews of the new 414-horsepower BMW M3.

You can pretty much sum up all of the accolades in a quick factoid from Gerhard Richter, vice president of BMW M Power, who said in Motor Trend (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0710_2008_bmw_m3) that the V8-powered M3 clocked 3.4 seconds faster on the Nürburgring Nordschleife than the V10 M5. That’s 8:10 a lap. He added: “I could do that while talking to you as I drive.”

But there’s another side to that story. In the same Motor Trend review, Angus Mackenzie, the magazine’s editor in chief, called the E92 M3 “a pussycat around town.” And he wasn’t the only one.

What Car? said (http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=226471) it was “comfortable and well equipped, and is as eminently suitable as an everyday car as it is at home on racetracks.” AutoWeek said (http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070706/FREE/70706014/1065) it was “not quite as tactile in its actions, perhaps, as the car it replaces.” And Car thought (http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/first_drive.php?sid=841&page=1) that “in trying to hit so many targets, the E92 leaves purists wanting.”

Kind of sounds like the bean counters have turned the M3 into an AMG: all big engine and great numbers and a drive that’s too refined.
My friend Jared, who’s had far more track time than I’ll ever see, is more harsh. “Haven’t driven the new iteration,” he wrote in an e-mail. “BMW hasn’t made a genuine M3 since the E36. Motorsport means fleet, not just fast, and certainly not fat. Americans want fat, obviously.” (He’s referring to the fact that 50 percent of M3s will be sold in America when it goes on sale next spring.)

Jared also thinks the M3 has been on a downward slide since the E30, when it was a homologation special built to square up against the Ford Sierra Cosworth and the Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16 in the World Touring Car Championship; when its sole purpose was to satisfy racing regulations and not to be profitable, i.e., the good ol’ days.

Me? I loved the E46 M3 (Competition Edition) but can see Jared’s point. And therein lies the conundrum of the day. Just because the M3 didn’t start life as a daily driver does it mean it shouldn’t, with modern engineering and materials, evolve into one?

At this point I need to admit to burying the lede. Jared and I began this discussion while driving an Audi R8 to Lime Rock Park for the American Le Mans Series race last weekend. And I bring up the R8 only because neither Jared nor I have driven the M3, and the R8 serves as a pretty good example of what I’m getting at.

The R8 is fast. Its 0-to-60 is 4.6 seconds. We didn’t get a chance to put it through its paces (as if I have the ability) or even do a burnout, but on the winding roads along the Housatonic River leading up to Lime Rock, the R8 felt as good as the best cars I’ve driven on this kind of road. When the windows are down, the R8 sounds like an eruption. When they’re up, you could easily forget you’re in a 420-horsepower sports car. It’s that quiet.
Which could be good or bad. I don’t have the $120,000 to buy an R8, so I don’t know if after spending $120,000 on a sports car whether I’d want to hear it or not.

Remember the days when you didn’t have a choice? Sports cars were, by definition, loud and difficult. The Testarossa’s gearbox was awful. The Diablo’s rear window was useless (well, so I’m told). The two things I recall of my first drive in a Porsche 944 were the height of the seats and feeling every bump in the road.

But things are different now. I’ve been in an Audi RS4 on the track… and it goes. On the road it’s as easy to drive as an S4. The same goes for the R8. But could they be too perfect, as the reviewers are saying about the M3?

Purist is a word that gets thrown around, but for people like Jared, I think that simplifies the emotion. They long for some semblance of the idea (or soul or spirit) behind the original car — or maybe they just want to feel more of the road.

My position on the matter depends on the day you talk to me. For the most part, I fall for the “best of both worlds” argument. My back can’t stand up to long encounters with “track-tuned” suspensions. I rely on navigation too much. But then there are days when I wonder if there’s something we’re engineering away that we’ll never get back.

stuka
07-12-2007, 03:07 PM
Poseur!:ack: :lol: :D

ff
07-12-2007, 03:58 PM
But then there are days when I wonder if there’s something we’re engineering away that we’ll never get back.

Plaz
07-12-2007, 04:33 PM
Like getting stranded because of points failure or an f-ed up carburetor? :lol:

lemming
07-12-2007, 04:51 PM
8:10.

that's a whole lot faster then the e46m3.

stuka
07-12-2007, 05:03 PM
8:10.

that's a whole lot faster then the e46m3.

It is an achievement, consider that you have to make a 3600 pound piggy go 10 seconds faster than the E46 M3.:lol:

lemming
07-12-2007, 05:32 PM
it's weird but.....since the 1 series is going to be a reality here finally, i've completely lost interest in the new M3. there is too much E60 in the car and not enough e30, maybe. but maybe that's the point of the car and i'm expecting too much focused/niche marketing from it.

i personally think they should have developed a twin turbo v8 for the M3. as a torque-less wonder, it depends too much on gearing for its power and i'm just not a fan of that in a heavy car.

dredmo
07-12-2007, 05:40 PM
it's weird but.....since the 1 series is going to be a reality here finally, i've completely lost interest in the new M3. there is too much E60 in the car and not enough e30, maybe. but maybe that's the point of the car and i'm expecting too much focused/niche marketing from it.

i personally think they should have developed a twin turbo v8 for the M3. as a torque-less wonder, it depends too much on gearing for its power and i'm just not a fan of that in a heavy car.

I agree here. I don't know what my wife will think, as she's has always wanted an M3, but 1 series has me more interested. I personally love every M3 BMW has introduced, but (and I've said this before) I like BMW because they aren't Mercedes - and now they are, as the article implied...

"Kind of sounds like the bean counters have turned the M3 into an AMG: all big engine and great numbers and a drive that’s too refined."

stuka
07-12-2007, 08:47 PM
AMG has them big honking brakes and them ducts can actually stop.

Unlike the M3.:lol:

lemming
07-12-2007, 09:00 PM
i think whether or not the M3 is a great car is judged better not on its own merits, but in the company of its peers --or even its BMW benchmark, the 997.

i really doubt it has the braking ability, steering feel, clutch pedal take-up, shifter feel or brake pedal feel of the porsche.

the M3 is a tremendous 3 series, but that's part of the issue, ultimately, isn't it?

it starts life as a 3 series, the swiss army knife of cars. it doesn't start out on paper as a sports car. you just cannot dispute this. BMW is luxury first, sport second.

"perfect" seems hyperbole. better than X, Y or Z seems more accurate.

dredmo
07-12-2007, 09:49 PM
BMW is luxury first, sport second.

Keep in mind its XYZ hasn't always been the same. Maybe I'm old school, but... to me it's own XYZ may very well be Porsche, which is a sports car, and Mercedes, which is luxury. I agree it is the swiss army knife, but I've always expected a balance of sport and luxury to be BMW's bag. I think it still has it, but the performance, while high, is most certainly being dulled by its corporate directives.

Pinecone
07-12-2007, 10:33 PM
The E36 M3 a real M3???

Give me a BREAK.

But I like the fact that I can carry 4 adults, bring home a double bowl kitchen sink, and smoke most cars at the track. Plus it isn't as much of a cop magnet. :)

John V
07-13-2007, 07:50 AM
The E36 M3 a real M3???

Yep. :)

blee
07-13-2007, 08:57 AM
Yep. :)
The guy asked his friend for an opinion. Clearly he didn't have any taste either. :D

kenkamm
07-13-2007, 11:11 AM
It is an achievement, consider that you have to make a 3600 pound piggy go 10 seconds faster than the E46 M3.:lol:

I'm fairly confident you could knock about 8 of those 10 seconds off the E46 M3 by putting a 20 mm wider tire on the front. That car is just completely crippled by understeer on the OEM rubber.

Theo
07-13-2007, 12:43 PM
I'm fairly confident you could knock about 8 of those 10 seconds off the E46 M3 by putting a 20 mm wider tire on the front. That car is just completely crippled by understeer on the OEM rubber.


Thats why the 245/275 combo is the right way to go!! =)

GimpyMcFarlan
07-13-2007, 01:10 PM
Wonder if this will replace test drives?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-ZX8uq6myU&feature=active_sharing&v3

P.S. How do you embed the YouTube windows in posts?

Rob
07-13-2007, 01:40 PM
that's cool. If the sound is anywhere close, this M3 will at least sound worlds better than the last one.

stuka
07-13-2007, 02:33 PM
The E36 M3 a real M3???

Give me a BREAK.

But I like the fact that I can carry 4 adults, bring home a double bowl kitchen sink, and smoke most cars at the track. Plus it isn't as much of a cop magnet. :)

Let's see, the Evo has AL door and hood. 321HP S50B32. Floating rotors. 6speed gearbox. Ungoverned top speed of close to 180. Weighs about 3200 EU.

Oh, and 4 doors.

Sounds pretty good to me. If it wasn't for the damn carb I would have kept going on my quest for a S50B32 conversion. But OBDII is a killer at the smog station.

Theo
07-13-2007, 02:38 PM
Wonder if this will replace test drives?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-ZX8uq6myU&feature=active_sharing&v3



Man it does look good in white and as with the last model looks tons better with the 19 inch rim option.

If I had limitless money I would get one as a nice GT cruiser.

Pinecone
07-17-2007, 06:47 PM
Thats why the 245/275 combo is the right way to go!! =)

NOT.

Now, 265 all around with some negative camber, YES.

Pinecone
07-17-2007, 06:49 PM
Let's see, the Evo has AL door and hood. 321HP S50B32. Floating rotors. 6speed gearbox. Ungoverned top speed of close to 180. Weighs about 3200 EU.

Oh, and 4 doors.

Sounds pretty good to me. If it wasn't for the damn carb I would have kept going on my quest for a S50B32 conversion. But OBDII is a killer at the smog station.

I thought we were talking US available cars?

But the only REAL M3 is the E30, preferably EVO or EVO2, but any of them are more of the real thing than any later ones.

And the other thing about teh E36, too many body panels are the same as the non_m version. With the E30 and E46, most of the panels are different, as well as hidden pieces.

Theo
07-17-2007, 09:17 PM
NOT.

Now, 265 all around with some negative camber, YES.

265 UP FRONT!! Holy fender rub batman.

BahnBaum
07-17-2007, 09:25 PM
265 UP FRONT!! Holy fender rub batman.

No rubbing at all on mine. And the only extra camber I had was from swapping strut hats.

Alex

Theo
07-18-2007, 12:15 AM
Your both running after market rims I assume?

BahnBaum
07-18-2007, 05:39 AM
Your both running after market rims I assume?

Not really. I ran stock rear wheels all around. I think all of us out here who own(ed) the m3 ran this combination without issue at some point.

Alex

EDIT: And before anyone makes some wiseass remark about old people getting up early, I have an early flight out of BWI.

John V
07-18-2007, 08:11 AM
EDIT: And before anyone makes some wiseass remark about old people getting up early, I have an early flight out of BWI.

I just figured bingo went over a little bit.

FC
07-18-2007, 08:50 AM
I just figured bingo went over a little bit.

LOL

John V
07-18-2007, 09:01 AM
But the only REAL M3 is the E30

wrong

Theo
07-18-2007, 10:09 AM
Not really. I ran stock rear wheels all around. I think all of us out here who own(ed) the m3 ran this combination without issue at some point.

Alex

EDIT: And before anyone makes some wiseass remark about old people getting up early, I have an early flight out of BWI.

Ahh cool, thanks for the info.

Pinecone
07-21-2007, 09:43 AM
wrong

OK, I will add the M3 Lightweight. :)

Pinecone
07-21-2007, 09:45 AM
No rubbing at all on mine. And the only extra camber I had was from swapping strut hats.

Alex

And pulling the strut pins.

I did the same thing. I now run a TC Kline setup still with stock rears all around and 265s all around.

I fact, Alex actually never swapped his strut hats. We pulled mine with Koni SAs off my car and dropped them on his when I got the TCK setup. His struts are still in my garage. :) Less than 45 minutes for a suspension swap. :)

lemming
07-21-2007, 10:24 AM
OK, I will add the M3 Lightweight. :)

have you ever had your LTW engine dyno'd?

just curious because those engines were all hand selected and i'll never forget getting my first track ride in a LTW.

Nick M3
07-21-2007, 10:41 AM
AMG has them big honking brakes and them ducts can actually stop.

Unlike the M3.:lol:
Actually, the AMGs stop like shit. The hardware is there, so I'm convinced it's a setup/software issue.

John V
07-22-2007, 09:34 AM
OK, I will add the M3 Lightweight. :)

You're getting warmer... :D

Pinecone
07-22-2007, 02:32 PM
have you ever had your LTW engine dyno'd?

just curious because those engines were all hand selected and i'll never forget getting my first track ride in a LTW.

NO, but when I did an Evolution autocross school it in, EVERY instructor spun it due to extra power and commented on how much stronger it was than other E36 M3s they had driven. :)

Personally, I think BMW did more than "hand pick" the motors for the LTW.